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I think it is hilarious that google and fandroids are trying to pretend like Apple is patent trolling.... Apple invented multitouch and owns the patents.

android will go down on those patents alone.

Pretending like Apple is a patent troll is stupid, since Appel has never been a patent troll. There are thousands of companies ripping off Apple's stuff for products that don't compete with Apple. Apple doesn't care (except for trademarks). Apple doesn't try to extract money from coffeemakers that can connect to the internet and violate an apple patent in the process.

They are going after google.

And google is selling counterfeit iPhones.

This is no different than going after the chinese companies making iPod knockoffs.
 
Oh wait, you're one of those posters who think Android the OS has anything to do with hardware.


Speaking of complete ignorance... before counterfeiting the iPhone, google was counterfeiting the blackberry and made a version of android to run it.

you think you made a point? LOL!
 
Google would be doing the same thing. You can spin this any way you want from any angle you want.



Don't be ridiculous.

I'm not being ridiculous. I'm being rational and realistic. If you think Apple plays fair all the time, I've got some oceanfront property in Kansas for sale.

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Hey your back to talk bad about anyone posting in a apple forum!!

Anyways, seems like google is a bit jealous they didn't win. It's not like they weren't bidding on the exact same patents!

I merely made a comment that someone here was being rational and open minded. Apple does not play fair either, but the Appleonians are blind to anything like that.
 
I agree that apple wants to protect it's innovations, but these patents are very bad for small companies who want to get on the field. Android has ripped many things from ios. Google should learn from microsoft wp 7, I think microsoft has done pretty great on it, not copying the ui from ios, but making their own tile system.
 
The whole concept of "buying" a patent seems ridiculous to me. If Google files a patent and then Google ceases to exist, then the patent should be void. Just like if an individual inventor files a patent and then dies, the patent should be void.

Apple buying a patent is basically just them buying a licence to rip off Nortel's ideas. So why bother with the money?

A patent is an asset. By this policy no businesses or the items they own would be saleable.

Seems like a horrible idea.

Google likes to talk a good game because they make all their money from search so they "give away" a lot of stuff free to get search traffic. The problem is none of that is really free, so it is disingenuous of them to claim so.

It seems the consortium on the Nortel patents was wise. They paid 4.5 billion dollars. If Android devices pay $15 each and there are 500k activations a day, that means 7.5 million dollars a day means ~50 millon a week, means 2.5 billion a year in revenue.

Take into account the devices those companies sell and it seems like a great business deal.

The best part about this evil group looking to take Google down (lol), is they represent a large enough variety of companies and customers to make any sort of anti-trust or anti-competitive action to be a non starter.

I agree some patent reform is needed. Companies that do not actually use patents should not be allowed to protect them. However technology companies who use patents actively should be able to both protect and control them how they see fit.
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but I have 2 software patents....

No offense.. really... but I've seen these posts before

Step 1 - Separate oneself as an expert. (IE "I used to work at an apple store")
Step 2 - Give a lengthy detail of one's "expertise"
Step 3 - relate it to the topic of the day
Step 4 - pull facts out of the air but pass them off as gospel
Step 5 - repeat facts that were fabricated in other posts referencing the fact that one is an expert.

You can't claim credibility in an anonymous forum. It doesn't work.
 
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econgeek said:
I think it is hilarious that google and fandroids are trying to pretend like Apple is patent trolling.... Apple invented multitouch and owns the patents.

android will go down on those patents alone.

Pretending like Apple is a patent troll is stupid, since Appel has never been a patent troll. There are thousands of companies ripping off Apple's stuff for products that don't compete with Apple. Apple doesn't care (except for trademarks). Apple doesn't try to extract money from coffeemakers that can connect to the internet and violate an apple patent in the process.

They are going after google.

And google is selling counterfeit iPhones.

This is no different than going after the chinese companies making iPod knockoffs.

well something like "multitouch" shouldnt be able to get a patent to begin with. it should be open for anyone to use in their own way. lets smthink of it for a mokent, what is "multitouch" input with more than 1 finger, nothing more. the US patent system is flawd which shows as multitouch is only apple pattented in the US
 
Speaking of complete ignorance... before counterfeiting the iPhone, google was counterfeiting the blackberry and made a version of android to run it.

you think you made a point? LOL!

Yes, I made a point that just flew way above your head since you're still equating Android to hardware.

Hint, Google counterfeited no other hardware platform, since they didn't make a handset device. They made an OS. Hardware vendors make handsets using that OS, and those handsets can be made into any kind of form-factor you want, because Android is hardware agnostic. You can make phones like an iPhone, like a Blackberry, a slider, a PSP gamepad type phone, Heck, you can even make wild stuff like a dual screen phone or a flip phone.

Android the OS doesn't care about the hardware under it.

Keep proving how much you don't know about Android though, don't say I didn't warn you.


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well something like "multitouch" shouldnt be able to get a patent to begin with. it should be open for anyone to use in their own way. lets smthink of it for a mokent, what is "multitouch" input with more than 1 finger, nothing more. the US patent system is flawd which shows as multitouch is only apple pattented in the US

Apple neither invented nor patented multitouch. Don't worry about that other poster, he obviously doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. ;)
 
Rubbish, it is perfectly acurate, and Harman Kardon soundsticks added a lot of base to it when you use the text to speech thingy.

Mouse buttons, my point exactly: logitech comes up with a 12 button mouse and 2 scroll wheels, apple comes up with a gesture / multitouch mouse with one clickable surface. The difference between innovation and just adding whatever worked before but more of it.

Got a bunch of nice wireless lasermice from Logitech, wanna buy them?

Your perception of of an alternate Apple-less reality is disturbing and baseless.

And FYI having more than 1 button on a mouse is extremely useful.
 
As much as I prefer Apple's products to Google's, they are right. On the surface, his statement is accurate. Software patents need massive reworking to make them viable and useful to encourage innovation again. It's a plague that needs to be solved.

Interestingly, are the same companies that are fighting to acquire patent portfolios actually lobbying congress for patent reform? I don't know the answer to that, but I am willing to bet that 4.5B of lobbying and campaigning would solve the whole patent battle. After all, money is speech now thanks to Citizen's United. (Yet another horrible decision by the Supreme Court, but I digress.)

These patents are worthless. They are used only to force the cost of business up for competitors by using intentionally obfuscated language for obvious inventions. The patent holders, in most cases, don't build anything. They just sue once someone else builds something with the patent they own. It's pathetic. NPR's This American Life had a great summary of the issue in their latest Podcast.

However, I somehow doubt that Google, with a $4B bid for the same Nortel patent portfolio, was going to just sit on them. Are they actually just complaining because they don't get to be the ones "extracting value" out of their patent portfolio? Somehow I think that no matter how virtuous these comments are, that Corporations look out for themselves first. Even Google. Especially Google.

while i partially agree with you, the software patents need reworking, but its simply ridiculous for Google to cry foul just because Android lost a little market share for a month. Its also ridiculous for them to claim that apple isn't innovating when they created the original product that Google copied.

Apple made the iPhone before there was ever android and they are simply protecting their IP.

Lets be realistic, Google is complaining because Android hasn't really caught on in the tablet market. Perhaps if they had been innovative themselves, and designed something more original and compelling, Android would be more suitable for tablets.


Like i said in a previous post, Google sure doesn't mind buying up over 1000 patents from IBM. They also play like M$ did in the 90's by acquiring small tech firms just to eliminate future competition. I also have reservations about their primary business which is selling users information to the highest bidder, but that a totally different can of worms.
 
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Seriously, guys?

You're overlooking the main point here: Google doesn't really care that it has lost out on the patents -- it cares that Microsoft and Apple are now patent-trolling, hand-in-hand, and purporting to raise end-cost of adoption if consumers choose not to buy Apple products (iOS-based hardware, e.g. iPhone, iPod, iPad) or Microsoft products (Windows Mobile).

Not only is this like Apple/Microsoft saying, "Don't want our stuff? Here, go get yourself your Android machine at $[x] premium more, because they're using our patents", when those patents were bought, and not developed, by Apple or Microsoft.

Apple/Microsoft paid some $4.5B for the patents, right? And is asking $15 per device for a license? We'll assume they actually end up getting $15 per device, not the more likely significantly smaller number the teams will end up agreeing on.

The up-front cost meets licensing costs only when 300 Million devices have been sold (by Apple or by Microsoft or by Google). At that point, Apple/Microsoft start getting a "discount" on the licensing. By my count, we're pretty darned close to that number already.

Were the actual number is something more like $2 per device, Apple/Microsoft/et al "break even" only when 2.25 Billion devices have been sold. That's a bit of a stretch, given the population of the world, so I'd guess the ultimate licensing cost will be a little higher, in the $5-10 range.

All of this, of course, is driven by the "market value" of that set of patents. Apple/Microsoft can't charge $2 per device unless they expect devices using that patent will be hyper-ubiaquitous by the end of the patent lifespan. So, why was the cost $4.5B?

Oh yeah, it was driven that high by bidding. Google was the main party on the other side of that bidding.

So, let's imagine an alternate world where Google's 3.14159 Billion offer had stood unchallenged. How much would Google be asking for licensing costs? I'd guess they'd be starting off at at least $10 per device, and might end up settling for $5 each.

Not a very striking difference, when we're talking about $300-$1,000 devices, is it?

Patents, when enforced by the original developer for his own protection, fit its original purpose; but when patents are enforced by its subsequent purchasers who benefit little from the innovation itself, and who use it only to prevent others to get to the same stage, that's just mean, and meant to stifle innovation for your own commercial good. All's fair in business, they say, but that doesn't mean Apple and Microsoft can't be unethical in doing what they do, especially when they're hurting consumers while they're at it.

Patents by their very nature are intended to raise the cost of entry into a market. That is expressly why they exist.

If Apple had bought this patent and then turned around and said, "No, no one can license it. Tough cookies!" that would be ruthless. As it is, they are paying up-front for the cost of the patent in hopes of recouping that cost over the lifetime of the patent in licensing fees. Such a gambit is far from assured, of course. Given that they are USERS of the patents in question as well as holders of the patents themselves, I see nothing even remotely ethically questionable here.

Again: Google wanted to be in the exact same situation. There is no indication that they would have turned around and licensed the patents for free, just perhaps for less cost. Since that didn't happen, it is also entirely possible Google would have turned around and required punitive licensing costs to drive Apple/Microsoft out of the phone business altogether (which likely would have instigated business-practice investigations in the US at least, but still ...).
 
re original articel

oh poor android - are the bullys around the block picking on you
 
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buying an patent is so stupid

A comes up with something
B buys it
B has no use for it
C comes up with a great idea
B is like oh wait, i got a patent on something like that HAHA money!
poor C ... i cant afford that
D = customer will never get a chance take advantage of the invention of C

pattents = stopping innovation and opportunities for the customer
 
Patents by their very nature are intended to raise the cost of entry into a market. That is expressly why they exist.

Are you sure that's the reason they exist. Really sure? :) Do you have some historic analysis on that one - or perhaps you're stating your opinion and belief?

I'm not arguing against the thought per se. I just have doubts that that is "expressly" the reason for their existence.
 
Now you might dislike Google all you want, but it is indeed biased, and this probably is a trust violation as it singles out a competitor.

Anti-Trust laws are designed to protect consumers, not companies. if everyone ganged up against Google, who is the largest OS provider in the smartphone space.. who cares.

There is no action needed, nor will any be taken. The people involved in the "evil conspiracy" represent a wide-range and disparate group of competitive companies in the same space, ensuring fair and adequate competition for the consumer.

There is no law out there that says "Mommy those other companies are being mean to me make them stop."

I think the concept of anti-trust, monopoly, and anti-competitive are misapplied more on MacRumors than any other forum on the internet.
 
David Drummond is a convicted criminal in Italy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8533695.stm
He has no moral title to complain about good companies like Apple in this patent dispute, patents MUST be respected.
Are you really that much of a fanboy to not even read the article you refer to in a post?

I like Apple, I enjoy their products, but do you really think no one would call you out on the audacity of this post? To clarify to people who might not feel like reading that article, apparently those three randomly chosen Google employees were arraigned for a video they apparently had the job of policing. Essentially, the Italian government is expecting them to sift through every video that's posted on any of Google's video hosting sites for content that might be against Italian law.

Unbelievable.

The only products of Google's I use are Maps and Google.com itself, so I couldn't claim to be their biggest fan. However, don't go and slander that man and the two others involved. If something like that happened to an Apple employee, you'd probably be crying in a bathroom corner. That's irresponsible, immature, and makes you look like a fool and drains your credibility.

I hear Fox News is currently hiring...
 
I'm not saying Apple doesn't sue too much, but as has been stated many many times already, Google bid on the Nortel patents and was willing to pay $4B for them. Do you think they were gonna pay $4B just to give out the tech for free? Yeah right.

It's such a load of BS that it's almost Fox News bad.

marksman said:
Anti-Trust laws are designed to protect consumers, not companies. if everyone ganged up against Google, who is the largest OS provider in the smartphone space.. who cares.

There is no action needed, nor will any be taken. The people involved in the "evil conspiracy" represent a wide-range and disparate group of competitive companies in the same space, ensuring fair and adequate competition for the consumer.

There is no law out there that says "Mommy those other companies are being mean to me make them stop."

I think the concept of anti-trust, monopoly, and anti-competitive are misapplied more on MacRumors than any other forum on the internet.

The only problem here is that, while Google has the largest OS, Apple and Microsoft are WAY larger companies and could be seen as pushing out a smaller competitor. I don't see it this way though.
 
Anyone who thinks Apple plays a fair game is a clown. I own all Apple computers, but if they don't show consideration for anyone but themselves soon, that will be coming to an end.

Oh come on now. Welcome to the world of Big Business.

Google, and other companies can avoid paying billions in taxes by using loop-holes in the system (things named such as the "Double Irish" and "Dutch Sandwich"), but other companies aren't allowed to use patent laws also to suit their own needs/finances?

You can't call foul on one company for using one "system" to their advantage while there are many others playing games with other systems as well. Again, its called Business.

Hate the system, not the players.
 
Anti-Trust laws are designed to protect consumers, not companies. if everyone ganged up against Google, who is the largest OS provider in the smartphone space.. who cares.

There is no action needed, nor will any be taken. The people involved in the "evil conspiracy" represent a wide-range and disparate group of competitive companies in the same space, ensuring fair and adequate competition for the consumer.

There is no law out there that says "Mommy those other companies are being mean to me make them stop."

I think the concept of anti-trust, monopoly, and anti-competitive are misapplied more on MacRumors than any other forum on the internet.

So you are trying to tell me everyone ganging up on Google to keep Android out of the market does not hurt consumers?
 
Things like this are ways for Google to soothe the fandroids who are worried about the patent cases. If you check droid sites, all the fanboys are proclaiming victory already LOL.

Now let's look at the real picture. Google wanted these patents too, they lost them, they used them without permission, there hasnt been one patent case so far that has remotely leaned Google's way, and the best Google can do now is have Schmidt say things like "I'm not worried" or hire patent lawyers to save anything they can.

Google is going to lose this case. Plain and simple. The only people excited about Google's "stance" is fandroids. Anyone who knows how business, IP, and patents work can see that what google did is a clear case of infringement.
 
I'd tolerate a little whining from Google if they weren't smartasses when they bid pi and other popular mathematical numbers for the patent portfolio. It's very humorous to me that they lost and now are complaining when, if they didn't bid pi, they could potentially have won. Congrats Google, enjoy your pi.

Agreed.

Google bid on those same patents. If they’d won, it’s OK, but if someone else won, it’s hostile? I’d rather see Google and everyone share them, but failing that, I can’t see Google as the “lone good guy."

And if Google’s the victim of “organized hostility,” then so is Apple--the most-sued tech company:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...ech_company_apple_is_forced_to_lawyer_up.html

Defenses against such attacks include:

* Buying patents first before someone else can use them against you. And if you have a patent, you must defend it.

* Owning patents that give you leverage against those who sue you: match their suit with your own, so that both parties can settle and cross-license.

* Owning patents that give you an advantage over the competition, to help your products compensate for patents they simply won’t license to you.

* Fighting back with every legal means you have, to discourage a growing flood of suits against you.

I don’t see how any of these companies can decide to just “not play the game” and let Google buy all the patents it wants. And so far, I don’t see Apple being among those (patent trolls!) who abuse the above means.

Agreed with most of your points, except owning a patent does not require active defense. Only trademarks require active defense. You can squat on patents for years mainly because it may be dangerous and costly to actively fight infringement.

I think you guys should remember that when google bid on the patents for $4B, they were doing it for themselves. What you have against Google is pretty much every anti-Google player bidding on the patents and sharing them. This brings up a question: If it were for defense, why not allow Google into the consort? Simple: It is, indeed, a hostile, organized campaign against Android.
....
If Google got the patents themselves, I would have no problem. Same if Apple did. And that extra half a billion is inflation because in Google's view, no one alone would have been stupid enough to pay more than Google was offering. And they're right. No one alone did.

Only problem is that Google was not bidding alone, but in their own consortium which included Intel. This is not so much a matter of a consortium forming at the start, but rather as the smaller players drop out, they frantically try to throw their weight behind whom they think the winner will be in exchange for licensing rights at a discounted rate. Google played the same game and lost.

Mark my words- it will be Apple to marginalize the carriers to dumb pipes in the coming years not Google.
Call me when you do something for the end consumer, Google. I will be answering on my iPhone.

Very well said... your whole post actually, but especially liked that last part. :)
 
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