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spacehippo

macrumors member
Aug 9, 2017
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Honestly that Nokia 9 multi camera beast is looking less and less ridiculous with all these camera additions that the phones are getting. First it was one lens, now 2, 3, 4... ALL THE LENSES! Can't they make one without a bump? I'm not a huge fan of the vertical one on the iPhone X but this square one looks ugly. What happened to Apple's simplicity and minimalism?! I really do hope these mockups aren't real.
 
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pankajdoharey

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2014
507
346
Oz town, Jade City. Mars
Ohh yeah because Apple has one? Googles design team is run by a bunch of useless copycat mongrels, why does google even spent money on hiring them just buy a mirror place an iPhone in front of it and look at the mirror and sketch a new design thats creativity for you without directly copying.

Edit: Apparently google bought the HTC Design team for $1.1 Billion last year. Well in much less money they could have bought a much cheaper Chinese mirror instead of a team which serves the same purpose.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,569
22,025
Singapore
The fact that the current Pixel is not selling well is a good thing, a very good thing because it's forcing Google to launch a more competitive Pixel 4 and actually listen to the Android community when they are talking about what type of hardware they like.
Yeah Google got quite the wake up call from the Android community.

Is this a variation of the “Yeah, the galaxy fold is a flop, but at least it shows that Samsung is still innovating” argument?

Google has a clear idea of what they want to do with their pixel phone. All issues I have seen all point to manufacturing and distribution issues, not to mention that the reasoning behind such a product is fundamentally flawed to start with.

I don’t know why google chose to limit themselves solely to Verizon (or maybe they had little choice in the matter). They are not Apple, and this isn’t 2007. People are not going to switch carriers just to get the pixel phone.

Likewise, I suspect Google initially priced the google pixel as expensively as it did because it wanted to capture the high end (iPhone / Samsung) market. But then it turned out that the pixel was poorly designed (no Face ID, front bezel etc) and didn’t really appeal to anyone at the price.

On the flip side, it makes increasingly less sense for google to release cheap smartphones because you already have other OEMs for that, the segment you wish to attract (iPhone and Samsung users) are not going to be attracted to it, and the ROI from this segment of the market that it does end up attracting is not going to offset the costs of subsidising said product in the first place.

The end result is a flawed smartphone strategy. A services company focused on offering free, data-capturing services to as many people as possible is stuck relying on premium smartphone hardware in an attempt to appeal to premium users who are content with their current platform / smartphone manufacturer.

I am not sure what the right move for Google is, but maybe they shouldn’t even be in this market at all.

Also the Pixel 3 and 3a series were among the most leaked smartphones ever so Google must have thought, why not? let's just tease the upcoming Pixel 4 ourselves before anybody else. It's quite a brilliant idea to be honest especially because it will hinder their haters or negative bombastic click bate article titles like Oh the new Pixels are just a shameless iphone copy wink wink.

I guess that’s one optimistic way of looking at things.

Were I a betting man, I would mortgage my house and throw everything I own on the “this product is so going to flop” option.

There’s really little reason to get one.
 

ROGmaster

Suspended
Apr 12, 2018
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Is this a variation of the “Yeah, the galaxy fold is a flop, but at least it shows that Samsung is still innovating” argument?
No.
Google has a clear idea of what they want to do with their pixel phone. All issues I have seen all point to manufacturing and distribution issues, not to mention that the reasoning behind such a product is fundamentally flawed to start with.

This has absolutely nothing to do whit what I wrote.

I don’t know why google chose to limit themselves solely to Verizon (or maybe they had little choice in the matter). They are not Apple, and this isn’t 2007. People are not going to switch carriers just to get the pixel phone.

It has nothing to do whit what I wrote.

Likewise, I suspect Google initially priced the google pixel as expensively as it did because it wanted to capture the high end (iPhone / Samsung) market. But then it turned out that the pixel was poorly designed (no Face ID, front bezel etc) and didn’t really appeal to anyone at the price.

Most android users don;t care for Face ID so it's irrelevant to mention it.
But yeah especially the 3 XL was a very ugly phone.
On the flip side, it makes increasingly less sense for google to release cheap smartphones because you already have other OEMs for that, the segment you wish to attract (iPhone and Samsung users) are not going to be attracted to it, and the ROI from this segment of the market that it does end up attracting is not going to offset the costs of subsidising said product in the first place.

It has nothing to do whit what I wrote.

The end result is a flawed smartphone strategy. A services company focused on offering free, data-capturing services to as many people as possible is stuck relying on premium smartphone hardware in an attempt to appeal to premium users who are content with their current platform / smartphone manufacturer.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Google isn't relaying on anything here.
Google's only flaw is thinking that acting like Apple would make them successful. The sooner they realize it the better and the Android community did give them a nice wake up call with the Pixel 3 and 3 XL which most likely sold worse than the 2 and the 2 XL.

I am not sure what the right move for Google is, but maybe they shouldn’t even be in this market at all.

The right move is to listen to what people want and appreciate in a phone.
Things like a good design, large batteries, ample storage and ram combined with the things Google does right(UI optimization, camera quality) would make quite a decent smartphone from Google.

I guess that’s one optimistic way of looking at things.

More like realist way of looking at things.

Were I a betting man, I would mortgage my house and throw everything I own on the “this product is so going to flop” option.

o_O makes no sense.

There’s really little reason to get one.

o_O ?
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
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@ROGmaster

I am basically saying that a google-branded smartphone simply makes no sense to me from a business standpoint.

You say that Google listening to their user base will enable them to make a phone their users want, which should in turn translate into better sales.

My point is that it’s not going to better in the ways that matter to Google.

What would decent smartphone sales even mean for Google at any rate?

If you argue that google could sell cheap android smartphones with the aim of earning them back via ad revenue, that logic kinda goes out the window when you realise that google earns the bulk of their ad revenue from iOS users (and to a much lesser extent, samsung flagship users).

If it’s user data Google wants, it seems like a zero-sum game when the google pixel would essentially be competing with other budget to mid-tier android smartphones.

We know that Apple has aggregated the best users by virtue of the iphone, and is increasingly inserting itself as an intermediary between iOS users and Google (hence google having to pay an estimated 9 billion dollars to Apple just to keep google search default in safari). One way of skirting around this moat is to convert iphone users to google phone users with your own flagship smartphone (so that they can then use Google’s services without Apple’s meddling), but to date, Google has failed to put out a flagship smartphone that would prove tempting enough for any iphone user to even consider switching.

So even that strategy is bunk.

I am not sure what the right Pixel smartphone strategy is for Google, but suffice to say, their current ones aren’t it.
 

ROGmaster

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Apr 12, 2018
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@ROGmaster

I am basically saying that a google-branded smartphone simply makes no sense to me from a business standpoint.
Well you haven't presented any logical argument to support this claim of yours so you are simply wrong.
You say that Google listening to their user base will enable them to make a phone their users want, which should in turn translate into better sales.
My point is that it’s not going to better in the ways that matter to Google.

But you don't even know what matters to Google in the first place.
I know you think you are an expert in everything Apple but it's funny to see you act like you are also an expert in Google.
 
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antonis

macrumors 68020
Jun 10, 2011
2,085
1,009
Apple hasn't announced a square camera bump yet.

In reality, Apple is now in the copying seat. Google has openly said they're using a square camera bump. They were to it first.

Actually, you're right. Apple has only leaks for now (although they seem pretty accurate), while google officially admitted it.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,569
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Well you haven't presented any logical argument to support this claim of yours so you are simply wrong.

Well, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, I haven't exactly seen any logical argument from you as to how their smartphone strategy could possibly pan out either.
 

ROGmaster

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Apr 12, 2018
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Well, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, I haven't exactly seen any logical argument from you as to how their smartphone strategy could possibly pan out either.

Well the same as you and any person that doesn't work at Google's hardware division, I have no knowledge about their actual strategy so there no reason for me to throw around pointless thoughts about it.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,569
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Well the same as you and any person that doesn't work at Google's hardware division, I have no knowledge about their actual strategy so there no reason for me to throw around pointless thoughts about it.
Isn't that the whole point of this forum?
 

robbietop

Suspended
Jun 7, 2017
876
1,169
Good Ol' US of A
If your phone isn't selling well, copy what everyone thinks the next iPhone will look like and then do a vain PR fluff on Twitter to "leak" the teaser trailer...oh wait they just showed off the whole phone!
Guess we won't have to watch the Keynote then. Why waste an hour listening to Sundar talk about how Google's Pixel is better than the iPhone despite the iPhone outselling it 20 to 1.
 

ROGmaster

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Apr 12, 2018
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If your phone isn't selling well, copy what everyone thinks the next iPhone will look like and then do a vain PR fluff on Twitter to "leak" the teaser trailer...oh wait they just showed off the whole phone!
Guess we won't have to watch the Keynote then. Why waste an hour listening to Sundar talk about how Google's Pixel is better than the iPhone despite the iPhone outselling it 20 to 1.

Yeah it looks like that for Google haters. In the end this is what make's it a brilliant move.
It's the reason we see this article on The Verge.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/13/18677202/google-pixel-4-huawei-mate-20-pro-android-q-gestures
 
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2580285

Canceled
Nov 2, 2016
61
38
The fact that the current Pixel is not selling well is a good thing, a very good thing because it's forcing Google to launch a more competitive Pixel 4 and actually listen to the Android community when they are talking about what type of hardware they like.
Yeah Google got quite the wake up call from the Android community.

Also the Pixel 3 and 3a series were among the most leaked smartphones ever so Google must have thought, why not? let's just tease the upcoming Pixel 4 ourselves before anybody else. It's quite a brilliant idea to be honest especially because it will hinder their haters or negative bombastic click bate article titles like Oh the new Pixels are just a shameless iphone copy wink wink.
[doublepost=1560493142][/doublepost]
What Xioami Redmi is that?
The Redmi Note 7 pro has a tiny notch and it doesn't look like the Xs Max at all.
[doublepost=1560493332][/doublepost]
The iphone x didn't fix any OLED issue.

That one. Aside from the notch, positioning of the camera, curved edges and bottom port-speaker grille layout are very similar to those of the last iPhones.

I'm not a fan of the notch but I quite like the styling of recent iPhones overall, so I liked this Xiaomi. Materials aren't as good and neither the rear fingerprint sensor nor Android do it for me, but I liked its appearance.
 

31 Flavas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 4, 2011
775
406
Put in a headphone jack. It hurts no one and pleases many.
I have to ask why would everyone copy Apple "just because Apple does it"? Someone might want to just try and undercut Apple, as a strategy. But, no one else is beholden to Apple's design philosophy or Apple's monetary motives or incentives: e.g. Having to push AirPods. In otherwords, just leave Apple to do it's own stupid "courageous" things.

It's not like the iPhone 7 'proved' that the headphone jack was unnecessary. Or that Samsung had AirPods killers to challenge Apple with. So why did the Galaxy A8s ship without a headphone jack? I can't imagine anyone would opine that the rumor that Samsung is dropping the headphone jack, -again-, is just self-interest in pushing their Galaxy Buds.

As you say, it hurts no one and pleases many to leave the headphone jack. So I'm not buying the argument that headphone jacks are disappearing because 'everyone just copies apple' - There's no reason. No benefit. It's even just good 'brownie points' to keep it. You get to say, "See how out out of the loop Apple (or anyone else) is? We don't and won't remove the headphone jack!"

Since others keep removing the headphone jack, to me, this means that there is some non-monetary costs, hits, or drawbacks from the continued inclusion of the headphone jack. And, thus, would explain why they're being removed. Which would rather mean that the "courage" meme's aren't exactly hitting the mark.
 
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ROGmaster

Suspended
Apr 12, 2018
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That one. Aside from the notch, positioning of the camera, curved edges and bottom port-speaker grille layout are very similar to those of the last iPhones.

Like most phones are similar between them because they have a rectangular shape?
Anyway the Redmi Note 7 is not a copy of any iphone and calling it like that is quite disingenuous. You did say that copying is shameful on their part and thta's plain wrong.
I'm not a fan of the notch but I quite like the styling of recent iPhones overall, so I liked this Xiaomi. Materials aren't as good and neither the rear fingerprint sensor nor Android do it for me, but I liked its appearance.
The Redmi Note 7 has a tear drop notch so it's as small as it can be.
It starts at 150$ so of course materials aren't going to be as premium as other way more expensive smartphones. Try a Mi 9 which is 440$ and see what type of build quality that phone has.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,569
22,025
Singapore
I have to ask why would everyone copy Apple "just because Apple does it"? Someone might want to just try and undercut Apple, as a strategy. But, no one else is beholden to Apple's design philosophy or Apple's monetary motives or incentives: e.g. Having to push AirPods. In otherwords, just leave Apple to do it's own stupid "courageous" things.

It's not just the headphone jack. The notch. The marketing material. Heck, even the choice of default wallpaper.

They are not copying a phone. Instead, they are copying a lifestyle brand. They want their consumers to think they are getting a version of the iPhone experience at a fraction of the price.

This just speaks volumes of how strong the Apple brand is, that there are companies willing to completely forgo their own brand equity to piggyback off Apple’s brand, even when it comes to moves like removing the headphone jack, all the more when there is little benefit for them.
 

31 Flavas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 4, 2011
775
406
They are not copying a phone. Instead, they are copying a lifestyle brand. They want their consumers to think they are getting a version of the iPhone experience at a fraction of the price.
But, copy the “flaws” too? I mean, given the criticism of the notch and removal of the headphone jack - it doesn't seem like you’d copy those while trying to sell Apple’s ‘lifestyle’.

But, it could be bezels were unnecessarily thrown out (form over function) by Apple, where bezels are functional / necessary / purposeful and, instead, these full screen phones where the gimmick themselves. i.e. Criticism of ‘notching’ is correct - just not for the right reason. i.e. The “courageous” thing for the competition and consumers would be to reject bezel free phones.

This just speaks volumes of how strong the Apple brand is, that there are companies willing to completely forgo their own brand equity to piggyback off Apple’s brand, even when it comes to moves like removing the headphone jack, all the more when there is little benefit for them.
Which itself then should be a powerful argument against the popular “function over form” arguments. That is if phones are really off better just being functional boxes - Why is the Apple ‘lifestyle’ is desirable to such an extent? As typically Apple is form over function: virtual keyboard vs physical keys, all internal memory (no SD card), non removable battery, smaller battery (which supports ...), thinner and lighter design, don’t forget Apple resisted moving from its 3.5” screen to any larger screen (again because it was better form over function to them), etc (fill in a gripe against the iPhone).

I mean if all of these common grips and criticisms about Apple iPhones are totally true and totally holding it back - why is the Apple ‘lifestyle’ or whatever so compelling that it overwrites not just a single companies brand or design equity - but nearly everyone follows suit. To the extent that they need to copy removing the headphone jack for no benefit (my OP’s post said adding one hurts no one and pleases many).

Again my view is that there actually is “harm” from the continued inclusion of the headphone jack. Harm that critics aren't recognizing or willing to admit or such. As again, it should be a no-brainer to reject and just collect good will points on - if not chastise Apple for.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,569
22,025
Singapore
Why is the Apple ‘lifestyle’ is desirable to such an extent? As typically Apple is form over function: virtual keyboard vs physical keys, all internal memory (no SD card), non removable battery, smaller battery (which supports ...), thinner and lighter design, don’t forget Apple resisted moving from its 3.5” screen to any larger screen (again because it was better form over function to them), etc (fill in a gripe against the iPhone).

I will respond to this specific portion of your reply as I think it will build on the rest of my argument.

The TL;DR of my reply is that what you stated only seems that way to someone with an engineering mindset. Who has been conditioned to value specs over the end user experience, and that more is always better.

Apple is a design company (or more specifically, a design-led one). In the eyes of Steve Jobs and Jony Ive, perfect products are made by cutting out everything not absolutely required in the design. To them, it's about creating products that are cut down to their absolute most basic form, with nothing standing between the user and the device. The products aren't about having the most features, or being the "most useful", but about distilling out the purest mixture of form and function possible.

That's why Apple doesn't do removable batteries or expandable storage (amongst many other things they don't do), not so much to force obsolescence, but because Apple decided that doing so would sacrifice the integrity and the beauty of the phone. But of course, if someone is convinced that Apple is out to nickel-and-dime their customers, then yeah, everything Apple does will seem that way to him or her.

What I guess I am trying to say is that when you buy Apple products, you are not just buying a phone, or a tablet, or a laptop. You are buying into one company's vision of how one ought to interact with the world. Take the way the iPhone, Apple Watch and AirPods interact with one another. How they would have worked with the now-defunct Airpower. You are buying into a lifestyle (for lack of a better term). The promise of an integrated solution that just works right out of the box.

That is what makes Apple so polarizing. They often aim for product experience at the sacrifice of user choice. And if their idea of what you want in a product matches yours, then it is full of secret magic and delight. And if not, it will be pure frustration, like jogging through quicksand.

Which then brings me to

Again my view is that there actually is “harm” from the continued inclusion of the headphone jack. Harm that critics aren't recognizing or willing to admit or such. As again, it should be a no-brainer to reject and just collect good will points on - if not chastise Apple for.

I have my own theories on why Apple chose to do away with the headphone jack. Just watch the iPhone 7 keynote in 2016 when they announced the AirPods. They flat out admitted as much - that Apple has a vision of a wireless future. Apple sees a world in which the headphone jack will lose value, and they would rather navigate this change in the driver's seat and be in a position to shape this new world order rather than wait until alternatives actually appear on the scene in full force.

Do these companies also removing the headphone jack also share Apple's conviction, or is this a case of "Monkey see, Monkey do, but Monkey doesn't know what it is doing?" They may not know or understand why Apple is doing this, but they are hopping along for the ride regardless in the hope that it will lead them somewhere.

I feel these people have the right to be angry that Apple has removed the headphone jack. My stance is not that it doesn't suck, but that it will be worth it in the end. Just like Apple blocking flash, or having only USB-C ports on their laptops, or removing the floppy drive.

Is Apple right? I guess that's a riddle only time can answer.
 

Cirric92

macrumors newbie
Jun 17, 2019
1
0
Okay Google Pixel!

Why are we now copying Apple. It appears to me that your pixel 4 is going to look alot like an iPhone 11. Can we please work on trying to make our own device instead of replicating iPhone's all the time. I'm not really an apple fan. With that said I dont think apple makes bad devices because they definitely do not. Infact everyone in my family owns an iPhone 7 or newer. I am the only person in my family that owns a Samsung device. I do agree that for a long time Samsung tried to copy apple with there devices but when I look at an iPhone and a Google pixel each year, usually the Google pixel almost looks exactly like an iPhone. Even pixels home launcher kind of replicates the design apple has. The pixel devices do look really neat but a few weeks ago I was under the impression that this year Google would not be going with a notch. What changed that. It's kind of funny to see that both apple and Google are deciding to keep the notch display after all of the back lash Google received when they first came out with the camera notches. Hopefully they decide to go with something alot smaller like a v or u shaped notch if they are still planning on releasing another device with a notch this year. I can completely understand the fear and worry that the pop up camera mechanism might break or stop working but we also saw leaks that Google was planning on stealing samsungs hole punch design to start with. To be honest I think that would be more of a win for Google pixel. Go with the hole punch. The notch is last years idea. Don't go with the same exact look as last year. Fans are hoping for an even more futuristic looking design. The hole punch display would definitely bring that in for pixel. As far as the camera, as soon as I saw this article online I automatically thought of iPhone 11. I didnt think of mate 20 at all. So are we all deciding to go with squircle cameras for 2019-2020? I really hope not. When I first saw apples article of the iPhone 11 I saw the squarish camera idea as very ugly. Really! No need for a big square on the back of the phone unless your going to put 4 or more cameras in the sqaure for better cameras. Everyones mostly going for 3 or more cameras this year. I would really like to see how impressive Google pixel 4 will be with only using 2 cameras. The market now wants a telephoto, wide angle, and a 3D depth sensor atleast. Some phones have even upped the game with a 4th camera for even better pictures. Not saying pixel will be behind in there camera game this year, just curious to why only having 2 cameras.
 

ROGmaster

Suspended
Apr 12, 2018
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Okay Google Pixel!

Why are we now copying Apple. It appears to me that your pixel 4 is going to look alot like an iPhone 11. Can we please work on trying to make our own device instead of replicating iPhone's all the time.
The iphone 11 hasn't been launched yet in case you don't realize it.
The Pixel 4 is technically copying the Huawei Mate 20 Pro. If you don't like this fact, well you are just arguing with logic.
 

Timemaster

Suspended
Feb 7, 2019
156
113
Will it have a FaceID copy too? I remember people guessing that it would take stock Android phones a couple years to catch up with FaceID, this could prove them right.

It took a couple years for Android to get Touch ID back in the day - the iPhone got it in 2013, Samsung had a buggy non-standard implementation in 2014, stock Android had it in 2015.

If you look at the history several android manufacturers where looking into it back then but Apple made a move and bought up the best manufacturer of fingerprint readers and the company was way ahead of the number 2. It set back Android by years because they were all in talks with them when Apple bought them up.

Apple made a smart move but you need to keep track of it to understand why Android was so far behind there.
 
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