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Graphics Cards in New Mac Pro May Be User Replaceable

laurim said:
The people who post this image aren't actually the target market for the MacPro. If you were, you would already own the old MacPro with many of the peripherals you show in the right side. So, the new MacPro actually reduces the space the equipment takes up. I know that's true in my case.
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Yup. I have a monstrous PC setup in my studio and there's no shortage of extra devices plugged in. In fact, the way drives get filled, and even die, I'd rather not fuss with them mounted inside my computer. I'm happy if the computer is a mostly sealed small and quiet box.
 
ssgbryan said:
It isn't a joke. It's all about the TCO. Before we got the price on the nMP, I started to price out what it would cost me to move from my current MP to the new one:

4 3.5 internal hard drives (external TB case = $600).
2 2.5 ssds (yet another external TB case = $300)
1 external dock for additional connections ($300) I need more than 4 USB ports. (External 4 bay Raid, 4 additional external hard drives, Scanner, iPhone, iPad, thumb drive, camera, tablet, mouse & keyboard - the Apple version of the last 2 have been used, judged and found lacking)
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$300 for a USB hub and thunderbolt to FireWire/[whatever]??

So $1200 (minimum) + 3,999 (bare bones 6 core) = $5200
Vs.
$5400 for a 16 core Dell that can take a lot more than 64Gb of ram, and doesn't require me to spend 4 figures on external devices of questionable quality.
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You can still use whatever you already have. It's the drives that need to get enclosures.

Since my entire workflow CPU based vs GPU based, and according to the software program managers, isn't moving to OpenCL anytime soon, it is looking like my next box will be a Dell.
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What about all your data and software? Isn't that currently in Mac software formats and on Mac formatted drives? You're not just slotting them into a new Dell. Is that a cheap process to migrate?
 
LillDrutten said:
Well. Thunderbold have 4 pcie lanes. Internal pcie up to 32 lanes. And high end graphics can use 2 pcie connectors. Thats 64 lanes. Internal graphics peek performance is there for 16 times the maximum of a thunderbolt. With Moores law with 67 percent performance increase it is about 7 years. So a 2013 thunderbolt graphics throughput is about a 2006 internal throughput. But in reality it not that bad since the graphic is smarter now than 2006. But graphics and other highend IO on thunderbolt is a joke for stationary computers.
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Well, don't know where you got that info. The maximum number of lanes on one PCI socket is 16 and no graphics card uses more than one of them. They can be 2 or 3 slots wide but still sits on one slot and so are only connected to one. Thunderbolt has 4 lanes, yes... the difference is that PCIe v3.0 used by modern graphics cards is twice as fast per lane as PCIe v2.0 that is used by Thunderbolt controllers. So 8x difference in bandwidth and it depends greatly on application how much that impacts performance. f.ex going from 8 to 16 lanes on PCIe v3.0 has almost no difference in most of applications but of course there is more impact when you go slower as the PCIe comes a real bottleneck

here is a review http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Ivy_Bridge_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html
 
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chrmjenkins said:
Doubt it. There's likely a special deal between apple and AMD/nvidia that prevents them from selling on the open market or risk losing their contract.

This isn't just about a firmware flash anymore.
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If Apple boycotts AMD and nVidia, who else can Apple go to for graphic processors? Intel?
 
i suspect they will be replaceable in the same way the MXM video boards in the 2011 iMacs "technically" are replaceable.

Problem is, you can't find a replacement outside the OEM channel, no one makes them with the correct the bios, and there DAMN expensive.

This move to a proprietary parted mac pro is what finally pushed me out from apple to an intel and Windows based workstation.

i NEED to be able to swap out a failed component on the fly, if need be with a part bought from PC world to get me by whilst i wait on a proper replacement, not send the WHOLE system away and lose god-know-what when the apple muppets (Geniuses) get their un-educated hands on it
 
dysamoria said:
$300 for a USB hub and thunderbolt to FireWire/[whatever]??



You can still use whatever you already have. It's the drives that need to get enclosures.



What about all your data and software? Isn't that currently in Mac software formats and on Mac formatted drives? You're not just slotting them into a new Dell. Is that a cheap process to migrate?
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1. Yep, any enclosure or dock that comes with a Thunderbolt connection is going to cost. This example is the Thunderbolt Express Dock from Belkin - $299.99.
Available Ports: 3 USB3, 2 Thunderbolt, 1 Firewire 800, 1 ethernet, along with a mike & headphone adapter. The 4 usb ports that come with the nMP aren't enough. In fact, now that I am counting, I may need another powered USB hub to go along with it because I seem to be short 3 additional USB connections - which will take the last TB connection on the dock.

2. Of course I can use what I already have - using what I already have will run me $1,200 and is factored into the TCO costs of the nMP. Internal drives - $900 for 2 enclosures, ($600 for the 3.5's, $300 for the 2.5s) and then the above-mentioned dock for everything else.

Then there is the fact that all of this is going to take up a lot more space than my current setup. The rats nest of cabling is going to double in size, as an added bonus. And then there are the adapters I'll have to buy for my monitors, so add another $90 (2 Belkin Thunderbolt to HDMI adapters @ $44.95 plus shipping) to the cost of migrating.

3. Software migration costs are almost non-existent. With 2 exceptions Office, Zbrush), each of my programs came with both a Win and an OSX version.

My data formats are OS neutral. As far as software, all I have to do is download the Win version and plug in my serial #. I'd have to do an OS switch for Zbrush, or simply leave it on the mac and remote into it.

Don't forget the other major limitation - the inability to upgrade/replace anything other than memory. This drives the life-cycle of the nMP down to 3 years. Other than memory the nMP isn't going to have 3rd party supply chain. Nightarchaon has already explained the issue.
 
And what if I don't like AMD....come on...I'd take Nvidia over AMD/ATI anyday and really I don't understand why Apple goes back and forth between AMD and Nvidia? Probably a quantity and cost thing but I'd like to see a dual Nvidia option...I mean even if you can change the GPU's who says it will support something like SLI? Nvidia Quadro anyone? The way I view bouncing back and forth with Graphics cards is not really a stable idea, I mean what if they did that with CPU's? I like the options of Nvidia...maybe its just because I've always used Nvidia graphics cards, and the first GeForce was released on my birthday (same day not year but still)..I guess Im a fan boy but isn't that the fun in a versatile workstation?
 
nateo200 said:
And what if I don't like AMD....come on...I'd take Nvidia over AMD/ATI anyday and really I don't understand why Apple goes back and forth between AMD and Nvidia?....
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Why would anyone care about the brand of GPU chip? What you should care about is the performance you get out of them. Apple bounces between those brands because to look at performance and energy use and buy whatever works best for them

Those cards in the new Mac Pro are there to run OpenCL.
 
ChrisA said:
Why would anyone care about the brand of GPU chip? What you should care about is the performance you get out of them. Apple bounces between those brands because to look at performance and energy use and buy whatever works best for them

Those cards in the new Mac Pro are there to run OpenCL.
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Perhaps because Nvidia's OpenGL support has historically been more reliable and less buggy then ATI's? I can't say the same about their system controllers (oh god), but their GPUs are definitely top notch- especially when it comes to the workstation market. Likewise, there are a lot of applications out there that simply do not support OpenCL and require CUDA for GPU acceleration.

Personally, I won't be buying another Macintosh with non-removable ATI cards in it. I've already been burned with my current workstation, where the 5870 exhibits severe OpenGL bugs in newer CG applications that neither Apple nor AMD seem interested in fixing. My only option now is to buy a replacement Nvidia card, because at least Nvidia bothers to maintain their drivers and keep them in relatively good shape.

So that's why I care. AMD and Apple have proven that they are an unreliable combination when it comes to graphics cards. I don't care how powerful the new Mac Pro is, because that's all worthless if Apple is going to abandon the drivers again in another 3 years and move onto something else.

-SC
 
ChrisA said:
Why would anyone care about the brand of GPU chip? What you should care about is the performance you get out of them. Apple bounces between those brands because to look at performance and energy use and buy whatever works best for them

Those cards in the new Mac Pro are there to run OpenCL.
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Pretty much ALL of my points explained by ScottishCaptain below....I really hate "thing vs thing" or "thing 1 is better than thing 2" but Nvidia is just all around better...and yes I have used high end ATI cards and experienced the bugs in basic simple things like video decoding to editing in Premiere Pro or FCP. I realize it may seam like a minor comparison like BMW vs Mercedez but its a bit more than that.

ScottishCaptain said:
Perhaps because Nvidia's OpenGL support has historically been more reliable and less buggy then ATI's? I can't say the same about their system controllers (oh god), but their GPUs are definitely top notch- especially when it comes to the workstation market. Likewise, there are a lot of applications out there that simply do not support OpenCL and require CUDA for GPU acceleration.

Personally, I won't be buying another Macintosh with non-removable ATI cards in it. I've already been burned with my current workstation, where the 5870 exhibits severe OpenGL bugs in newer CG applications that neither Apple nor AMD seem interested in fixing. My only option now is to buy a replacement Nvidia card, because at least Nvidia bothers to maintain their drivers and keep them in relatively good shape.

So that's why I care. AMD and Apple have proven that they are an unreliable combination when it comes to graphics cards. I don't care how powerful the new Mac Pro is, because that's all worthless if Apple is going to abandon the drivers again in another 3 years and move onto something else.

-SC
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I definitely think Nvidia has better top end options, albeit at INSANE prices. Nvidia seams to be much more matured at all levels of GPU's in terms of GPU acceleration. Agreed on the fact that Nvidia is always maintaining drivers where as AMD doesn't care once the card isn't in its sights and obsolete. Again with GPU's being increasingly used for rendering and things that used to be very CPU based its definitely fair to want a GPU that is compatible, reliable, powerful and suitible for your needs. I feel like with the Mac Pro AMD is being forced on us, really Apple couldn't make a normal slot to put in a GPU of our choice? I mean only RAM being expandable is insane and putting GPU's in an external chassis is a joke for a workstation, I'm fine with external chassis's for my rMBP but a workstation is supposed to be expandable, adaptable and not overly focused on cutting down on size "issues" that were never a problem. Seriously I think its cool to be able to potentially bring this new Mac Pro say on location where you need power but every Mac is pretty much been made very difficult to upgrade with the Thunderbolt obsession which even with 20Gbps is no where near what allot of peripherals need. I don't plan on purchasing a Mac Pro anytime soon but I know plenty of people who could use one and plenty who will be building PC's. Hackintosh would be nice but not as reliable.
 
Why the tube design? Is the pro market that this computer is targeted for that swayed by form? A lot of engineering time, effort and expense went into making something tiny and un-serviceable look really cool for what reason? Is design that important for this market?
 
chrmjenkins said:
Doubt it. There's likely a special deal between apple and AMD/nvidia that prevents them from selling on the open market or risk losing their contract.

This isn't just about a firmware flash anymore.
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Maybe, though Apple would have little to no ground to negotiate a contract with AMD or Nivida, as Apple makes up a tiny portion of their sales.
 
seek3r said:
Even if you own a lot of those peripherals for your current machine absolutely none of them are in thunderbolt form...
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Missing the point.

squeeks said:
they should have given the second graphics card PCIe flash port as well for a second hard rive...
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I've been saying this since the original announcement, probably my biggest complaint about the box. Hopefully they'll reconsider and add it (if not now, at least to the second generation of the unit).

ssgbryan said:
It's all about the TCO.
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That picture sure doesn't seem to be, it's about clutter. And it's inaccurate.

ssgbryan said:
The 4 usb ports that come with the nMP aren't enough.
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So get a usb3 hub. Those are dirt cheap, it would make no sense to get a TB to USB adapter.

AppleScruff1 said:
Why the tube design?
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Cooling.
 
chrmjenkins said:
Doubt it. There's likely a special deal between apple and AMD/nvidia that prevents them from selling on the open market or risk losing their contract.
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Gonna be like iPhone on AT&T I think. AMD was willing to make the card and nVidia wasn't, so AMD gets a year of exclusivity and the cachet of being mentioned in conjunction with the new shiny hardware. If they sell, other manufacturers will jump. I think within a year or two we'll see an nVidia powered Mac Pro with a Quadro for driving screens and a Tesla for GPGPU. Hopefully built by PNY. The hybrid approach better matches the new Mac pro architecture anyway.
 
milo said:
Cooling.
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Thanks for the reply. Was cooling a problem in previous Mac Pro's? I know it has been an issue at times in the iMac and MBP, but the Mac Pro? I know that dual processors and dual high end video cards can put out some serious heat. It just seems to me that they went with a form factor that really wasn't necessary and that it was just for the wow factor. I'll be interested to see how cool it runs compared to traditional tower pc's of comparable specs. Video card in this class have their own cooling system built in, processors have a heatsink of some sort and the case has fans as needed.
 
I doubt that they'd totally redesign the whole machine just to save money on manufacturing heat sinks.
 
milo said:
Missing the point.
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You clearly didn't read my second comment. The big thing a lot of us with older mac pros have to deal with moving to if we switch to the new version is an external array, which will need thunderbolt to match internal speeds at all.

It's expensive (enough to erase any price gap between apple and most competitors even though Apple's base pricing isn't bad) and irritating.
 
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