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Mac mini is the perfect device to be one of the 1st for new :apple: chips.
The other rumour is that the Mac mini update will come later. That does make sense though since the Mac mini now sports Mx Pro chips. The M3 Pro/Max/Ultra will most likely wait for N3E.

The debate here about N3B and N3E is mainly about the M3 non-Pro chips.


TSMC N3 or an Apple M3? The Apple M3 wasn't going into any iPhone product ever. So no happening this year isn't saying much. The M3 going into the iMac on its 25th anniversary is entirely plausible. If Apple built a stockpile of A17 dies from March to August it wouldn't be a high hurdle at all to throw a relative small number of wafers at getting M3's for the iMac. it is far , far , far from being the highest volume selling Mac at this point. The context is completely different from 25 years ago.

For Apple to trot almost 3 YEARS with no iMac update is ridiculous. Pretty good chance they skipped doing a M2 version of the iMac so that they could sprinkle "special sauce' on the iMac in its anniverary year. Which all went a bit sideways when TSMC N3 rolled out a bit more bumpy than planned.

But the spin that yield are so terrible that Apple can barely cobble together any A17's for iPhone launch are likely wrong. If there is an iPhone shortage it is likely something other than the SoCs. Even at reduced yields N3B has been in HVM far too long not to have something more than substantive at this point for a relatively small die like the A17 probably is.
So, are you suggesting M3 is N3B, coming in October then? Even with my other statement above about TSMC's "HPC" term on N3B, I am still not convinced M3 is coming that soon, and will wait for N3E instead.
 
The other rumour is that the Mac mini update will come later. That does make sense though since the Mac mini now sports M Pro chips.



So, are you suggesting M3 is N3B, coming in October then? Even with my other statement above about TSMC's "HPC" term on N3B, I am still not convinced M3 is coming that soon, and will wait for N3E instead.
Right, the current mini has Pro chips but it would be nice to see the mini always first with the new M-chips.
 
Fair enough. Then I guess it will be N3E for M3.

Very expensive is an exaggeration. It wouldn't cost a trivial amount, but it isn't like switching to Samsung 3 or back to N5. But the hurdle of expense is a bit of a dual edged sword. If it is expensive enought o be 'annoying' (i.e., want to avoid), if Apple was 1-1.5 years into the M3 on 'N3B' then it it may not make any sense at all to throw it in the trash and pile even more debt onto M3 but designing it twice.

It really depends upon when Apple 'pulled the plug'. Very good chance M3 and A17 pragmatically started at exactly the same time. 3 years ago the timeline for using N3B for M3 in 2023 would be a decently conservative choice ( N3 was due 2H22 so by 1H23 that would appear 'safe'. ). The only way save lots of money is if Apple pulled the plug on M3 on the initial N3 very early in the game.

The reason why Apple may be pushed into doing a N3E 'respin' on A17 is only because Apple wants to dribble the A17 into 'new' products in 2025-2026. (e.g., the 'plain' iPad) Moving the M-series onto N3E only shrinks the wafer die off even faster . The whole problem with N3B is not really the yields in late 2023 , it is that nobody (way too few customers ) is buying them them. Buying less only digs a deeper hole ,quicker for Apple. Is that really going to help them???

The M3 doesn't have to be a 2025-27 produced chip. The versions with suffixes disappear in 1.5 or so years anyway ( Pro/ Max / Ultra) because there are no "hand me down" products for them to go to. The major long term longitudinal 'hand me down' product for the plan Mn is the iPad Air. Which honestly could squat on a M2 into 2025 if pick that up this Fall and perhaps doesn't quite so long in 2025 for an M4. Therefore skips the M3 altogether.
 
The M3 chip is widely expected to be fabricated using TSMC's 3nm process for significant performance and power efficiency improvements compared to the 5nm-based M2 chip in existing devices.
I'm not really that up on these nanometer chip measurements, but maybe people can weigh in. I understand that the smaller size of the basic circuitry yields more efficiency and power, but what is that likely to translate to in terms of performance? Apparently the gains from M1 to M2 were fairly modest, but are we to understand that the M3 will be some much greater leap forward?
 
Gurman claims new M3 Macs will come in the fall, but that doesn't jive with the above rumours, and I personally don't believe they will be based off N3B either as there isn't really a great advantage for Apple to use it for Macs, esp. since these Macs get made for several years.. So that leaves N4P, which I don't think the M3 Macs will use either.

Which M3 Macs? For the Mn Pro/Max/Ultra Apple has tossed those aside within a couple of years.

Apple has a gross laggards M1 MBA and M1 iMac 24" but that is more so lackadaisical effort on Apple's part than something necessitated by the M-series SoC. Apple could do an M3 series that just ended in two years if start now in 2023. It wouldn't be hard.

It is only if Apple is dogmatically committed to putting a M3 into a iPad Air that N3E becomes more of a necessity.
But does the iPad Air even need a M3 ? ( skip it and just go to M4).

The Macs are flexible but switching from N3B to N3E is pretty much going to put a year on the delay for the Mac line up. It isn't on some non technical "every September" deadline but kicking the can back a year isn't going to help either.

And there are more deep seating financial problems if Apple has to scoop up iPad Air unit volume to make a Mn-series generation 'work' .
 
So, are you suggesting M3 is N3B, coming in October then? Even with my other statement above about TSMC's "HPC" term on N3B, I am still not convinced M3 is coming that soon, and will wait for N3E instead.

TSMC applies the term "HPC" to anything that isn't a mid range phone SoC. It isn't narrowing the scope to "supercomputers"

' ... that N3B will be used for smart phone and HPC chips, with nothing about PCs or tablets. ...'

How they can cover high end HPC chips and not cover PCs chips is kind of a head scratcher. HPC isn't mid-bigger dies? And Apple isn't charging 'discount' , 'race to the bottom' rates for the M-series SoCs. More Mac prices have gone up ; not down since the transition. They don't 'have to' go to N3E because it is a more affordable wafer processing charge.
 
Apple has a gross laggards M1 MBA and M1 iMac 24" but that is more so lackadaisical effort on Apple's part than something necessitated by the M-series SoC. Apple could do an M3 series that just ended in two years if start now in 2023. It wouldn't be hard.

It is only if Apple is dogmatically committed to putting a M3 into a iPad Air that N3E becomes more of a necessity.
But does the iPad Air even need a M3 ? ( skip it and just go to M4).

The Macs are flexible but switching from N3B to N3E is pretty much going to put a year on the delay for the Mac line up. It isn't on some non technical "every September" deadline but kicking the can back a year isn't going to help either.
TSMC as already said volume production of N3E starts in 2023 Q4. Since M3 MacBook Airs sell in only a fraction of the volumes of iPhones, this could mean that a spring 2024 N3E M3 MacBook Air release is possible.

I not convinced the M1 MacBook Air is going to get updated. I think it could just get discontinued at some point. That said, even the very outdated Broadwell MacBook Air got a chip spec bump (to another very outdated Broadwell chip) so who knows.

TSMC applies the term "HPC" to anything that isn't a mid range phone SoC. It isn't narrowing the scope to "supercomputers"

' ... that N3B will be used for smart phone and HPC chips, with nothing about PCs or tablets. ...'

How they can cover high end HPC chips and not cover PCs chips is kind of a head scratcher. HPC isn't mid-bigger dies?
Yes, I'm now aware. I had already commented on that:
Hmmm... I will have to admit, I did not understand the nuance from TSMC's statement here.

After some investigation, I have learned that TSMC's term "HPC" doesn't actually mean high performance computing. It's just a vague catch all term can refer to anything that isn't specifically smartphone, communications, or automotive. So it could very well be chips that go into PCs or tablets, although the term is too vague for us to know one way or another.

Hmmm...
 
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The other rumour is that the Mac mini update will come later. That does make sense though since the Mac mini now sports Mx Pro chips. The M3 Pro/Max/Ultra will most likely wait for N3E.

The debate here about N3B and N3E is mainly about the M3 non-Pro chips.



So, are you suggesting M3 is N3B, coming in October then? Even with my other statement above about TSMC's "HPC" term on N3B, I am still not convinced M3 is coming that soon, and will wait for N3E instead.

Follow Dyan Patel on Twitter / read his site semianalysis.com

He is one of the most plugged in people in the semiconductor industry, has PhD level credentials/knowledge. The one actual analyst in the field.

He has affirmed A17 and M3 are coming this Fall with A17 and M3 for iPhone 15 Pro and iMac / Macbook Air.
 
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Follow Dyan Patel on Twitter / read his site semianalysis.com

He is one of the most plugged in people in the semiconductor industry, has PhD level credentials/knowledge. The one actual analyst in the field.

He has affirmed A17 and M3 are coming this Fall with A17 and M3 for iPhone 15 Pro and iMac / Macbook Air.
Why don't you just post the link? I've read some of his stuff before, but haven't seen the M3 Mac in fall 2023 posts.
 
I think they’ll pop an M2 in the iMac and that'll be it until mid / late next year.

The 13“ MBP I predict will get the refreshed design but remaining as M2, perhaps with an updated CPU to M2 Pro.

This would differentiate the lineup properly and have all their devices on the same platform and all relatively fresh.

The M1 Air and M2 Pro with Touch-bar staying available to those who are budget conscious or actually want a touch-bar.

Cannot imagine there will be much in terms of chassis redesigns for the next 5 years. Speedbumps, Face ID, better screens I'd bet will be the focus.
 
As it’s consistently been every year, and with good reason, iPhone is by far Apple’s number one priority on all fronts.

This is why, although not named “M3” or “M-anything” at all, iPhones are first in line to jump to the new chip generation.

Apple always needs to gauge yield and demand post September iPhone launch before launching Macs with the new chip generation is finalized.

Although probably it hasn’t been this dire in any previous years(?), Apple would not hesitate to postpone all the M3 Macs for several months if it struggled to meet iPhone 15 demand.

If this rumor of not being able to meet iPhone demand this September is true, then M3 Macs will most certainly have to wait to 2024.
Those are exactly my thoughts, Mr Sweet&Sour Apples. That’s why I’m convinced that M3 macs won’t be released until 2024. That’s why I don’t believe this rumors.

If N3B yields are so bad, there’s no sense in using this process to make M3 chips, just A17s, and when the N3E process is ready (2024), then green light to M3.

That’s unless the claims of N3B yield being so low are false or misleading. In which case the Gurman leal could be more credible.
 
Those are exactly my thoughts, Mr Sweet&Sour Apples. That’s why I’m convinced that M3 macs won’t be released until 2024. That’s why I don’t believe this rumors.

If N3B yields are so bad, there’s no sense in using this process to make M3 chips, just A17s, and when the N3E process is ready (2024), then green light to M3.

That’s unless the claims of N3B yield being so low are false or misleading. In which case the Gurman leal could be more credible.
Well, to paraphrase @deconstruct60 (but not to put words in his/her mouth), if M3 stayed with the N3B-specific design, then regardless if capacity was sufficient or not, it'd stick with N3B. Maybe M3 would get delayed until 2024 but it would still be N3B. They would not switch to N3E for it.

My contention was somewhat different. I was thinking that some time ago, Apple decided M3 was going to be on N3E (not N3B), and therefore M3 Macs can't be released in 2023 since N3E chips would not be available in time. By necessity they would have to be in 2024, regardless of what the N3B yields are.
 
It would be very unusual to do an A series chip for a TSMC process and then not do Macs on that same process.

I find it unlikely that Apple skips N3B over for Macs. Gurman has said N3B is coming for Macs in October, and Gurman is fed info by Apple.

Or if there is a wild rumor that Gurman floats that is not actually true, they will clarify it via Gurman. Apple controls expectations via Gurman 'leaks' / information releases.
 
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It would be very unusual to do an A series chip for a TSMC process and then not do Macs on that same process.
While less common, it's not exactly unusual for Apple.

For example, A10 was done on 16 nm but A10X was done on 10 nm.

Apple has even done the same A series chips on different processes. I think I mentioned it before but A5 was done on 45 nm and then redone on 32 nm. A9 was done on two different processes at the same time, from two different companies in fact, TSMC 16 nm and Samsung 14 nm.

I find it unlikely that Apple skips N3B over for Macs. Gurman has said N3B is coming for Macs in October, and Gurman is fed info by Apple.

Or if there is a wild rumor that Gurman floats that is not actually true, they will clarify it via Gurman. Apple controls expectations via Gurman 'leaks' / information releases.
Nah. He has good insider sources though. However, sometimes those sources are the same ones we see elsewhere. ie. IMO he has some insider sources and supply chain sources, but also reads all the random posts around the net too. And he extrapolates. While he has a decently good track record, it's not uncommon for him to be wrong, especially with dates.
 
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TSMC as already said volume production of N3E starts in 2023 Q4. Since M3 MacBook Airs sell in only a fraction of the volumes of iPhones, this could mean that a spring 2024 N3E M3 MacBook Air release is possible.

If TSMC's statement is literally true, actually it says quite the opposite. Making N3 class chips isn't like making microwave popcorn. One of the 'problems' that most customers don't like about N3B is that it takes about 4 months to make. (**) N3E is incrementally better (~3months. ) . However, both are worse than the old N5-family ( that includes N4).

if N3E high volume production doesn't actually start until October (Q4) , then it will be about about January until actually could accumulate any useful substantive inventory of working packages for a substantive demand surge launch.

If TSMC means that it wasn't 'production start' , but that they would recognizing N3E revenue (i.e., for delivered working chips) then that would make it viable. TSMC has said for almost two years that N3E was going to come about 1 year after N3 (N3B) went into high volume. [ There was some statements that N3E was going very well can maybe less than a year; maybe substantively ramp in Q3 sometime. ]

The M3 MBA makes really very little sense since they just did the MBA 15". If the Mini is 'hobbled' by being coupled to the Mn Pro why wouldn't the MBA 13" get hobbled by being coupled to the MBA 15" ???? They could do either decoupled if really wanted to, but it would be awkward.

A roll out on M3 of iMac in Oct/Nov , (then wait a gap time) MBP 13", , then (wait a gap time ) finally MBA 13" ( and maybe by that time iPad Pro ) would be trackable on N3B and not so track

The M2 MBP 13" and MBA 13" didn't actually roll out at exactly the same time either. Apple could do the same thing here. Do lower volumes first and build to production.


Clamoring for N3E is really cheerleading for products not to ship in substantive volume in 2023. Might get some relatively (to overall Mac volumes) product out the door , but it would be risky.


I not convinced the M1 MacBook Air is going to get updated. I think it could just get discontinued at some point.


Depends upon how much 'pressure' they get from the Windows PC market that Apple pretends doesn't matter.
There is enough stuff on the 13.8" MBA that will make it pretty hard to push down to the pragmatic $799-899 level in competitive retail. ( Yes, Apple lists it at $999 , but it does not regularly hold that point at all if wander from Apple's stores. )

If Apple refreshes the same old MBP 13" with a M3 then the very old MBA container could get a M2. It wouldn't happened until after the larger 13" moved forward though.


7+ or so years from now Apple is going to want to chuck all this M1 stuff .

Whether N3B or N3E the M3 die is going to cost substantively more. I don't see Apple floating an M2 (and substantively cheaper ) version of exactly the same as the chassis with just a M2/M3 gap between them. They would want to 'walk down' folks on screen size , webcam , etc. to decrease the fratricidal impact. It likely isn't going to be like selling last 2 gen iPhones side-by-side at all. The volumes are much lower. In most cases, the new SoC will get the previous gen "Steve'd" and just die off.

And that bargin basement old shell system could sit comatose for a couple generations if necessary. ( e.g,, the 'edu' , non-Retina iMac that Apple dragged along from more than several years comatose. )




** relatively extremely long production time makes inventory control much more difficult. If demand goes up can't really respond for many months. If it goes down then could get stuck with gobs of inventory you don't need. Apple generally does two things. One, they throw the same SoC into as many products as they can. (e..g, the iPad Pro can soak up plain Mn if MBA demand has a bump and vice versa. ) . Apple tends to keep lean inventory in first place. ( can send feedback back into the supply chain quickly to slow down , stop, speed up as necessary). They also don't make SoCS for other folks so if they know their own products very well , then there should not be 'surprises' in the product demand forecast. (i.e., ask for the correct amount in the first place .. so don't have to change wafer order volume. ).
 
What is Max Tech gonna do? Make 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, month benchmark/reviews for the next 12 months.
Apple obviously knows computers are super fast enough for what most people need them for, even people like creative professionals. There is a plethora of choices from the low end to the very top with the Mac Pro. Basically, the Mac is sufficiently optimized and service to not warrant yearly upgrades. Even the iMac on M1 is not detrimentally outdated even though its awkwardly out of step SoC wise with the rest of the family, but that is likely gonna change this October. But that is also the point, its not a device most consumers purchase to be pushed, its used by non-tech savvy people: reception, kids, kitchen computer, grand ma/grand pa, web browsing, watching YouTube. These activities don't require very much from a modern computer.
 
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Apple can easily move M3 production from N3B to N3E once N3E is fully ready and available.
No they can’t, different design for those 2 processes and different performance resulting in 2 different products… M3 is one or the other
 
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