Slower release cycles make sense, with upgrades featuring only minor spec bumps the rapid releases of the past seem to be a losing strategy.
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Hardware-Free WWDC Sets Stage for Busy Second Half of 2016
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I'm only two years behind you as a user/advocate, but I'm right by your side as a protestor. I've already committed myself to no more major Apple purchases, though I am still sorting through my options given the depth of my Apple ecosystem involvement.
Ehi, nice image you have as avatar
Well, it will be old, but at least less "ancient" than the one they are selling right now...! And, to add some more thoughts, it would be nice if Apple will lower the price for the 15". I mean, when the retina MBP cames out, you had the choice to but a the "normal" MBP 15" or the then-new top of the line with marvellous retina screen. But this was 4 years ago; now Apple can't sell the 15 retina screen MBP at this price. In US now with discrete graphic card it cost US$ 2499, and in Italy € 2849 (almost US$ 3205!). And with a 4 years old CPU....
hehehe Thanks
yeah so waiting for almost 2 years to buy something not ancient and expensive doesn't make any sense!
MacBook Pro 15 will cost now around 3200$ if u take the high end CPU with 1TB storage...and you can get the Dell XPS 15 with 4k screen, Skyelake Core i7 and 1TB SSD less than that!
People are crying out loud that Apple has failed and betrayed them and doesn't update regularly. Ok, Mac mini is a big fail, but even it might suffer the same thing I'm going to explain here.
The only real matter were Apple has failed is to communicate with us. They should be humble like Steve was in front of the audience in the early 2000. (Just look at those event videos, Steve is apologizing that they haven't updated their Macs as frequently as they should have.) This is their main sin. No communication.
Here are some facts and some assumption what might have happened.
You see, AMD was supposed to release TSMC 20nm GPUs late 2014/early 2015. But the 20nm process failed, and the whole 20nm GPU line was cancelled. Apple had to cancel Mac Pro 2015 and they were forced to update rMBP 15" with M370 instead of something they wanted. They were planning to release 5k monitor as standalone, but there was no GPU going to drive it without Apple creating a new connector or cable that needs two TB2's'. USB-c and DP 1.3 specs were out already, but no GPU to drive it. And Intel was way late with Thunderbolt 3 and Skylake. So instead Apple had to make iMac 5k with custom chip to drive the display trough DP 1.2 MST.
Same time Intel's roadmap failed big time as well. Broadwell was late more than six months (Xeon-EP is late nearly one year) and it proved to be hotter than expected at 45W mobile category (At the end, Intel gave it 47W TDP) without any real speed benefit. So Apple couldn't put it with the also hot M370 to rMBP 15". 13" rMBP got finally its Broadwell, but way late.. and it wasn't the screamer everybody had hoped.
Intel announced Skylake Iris Pro 580 last January this year, but they still struggle to deliver it. Iris 550 is also to be announced. These chips are late and the reason we don't have redesigned rMPB 13" an 15" out yet. Apple was going to discontinue Macbook Air early this year, but because they couldn't deliver the new Pro 13, Air is still here. With the old Pro.
Because AMD failed to deliver, Apple didn't see it worthwhile to release just a Haswell update for Mac Pro. It delivers +7% increase to CPU performance with 7% heat increase and Apple didn't have any new options for GPU's (because Nvidia is played out now and AMD failed). So, no MP update. And Intel and AMD charge the same for their components, so Apple didn't feel lowering the price point either. Because they are not discontinuing the Pro, nor going to lower its price point.
Intel just released (a week or two ago) Broadwell-EP 1600-series Xeons. When they're able to deliver them to Apple is not known. Also, AMD just released Polaris 10 and 11, that are perfect chips for next gen Macs. Apple has waited these chips more than a year, thanks to the failed 20nm process. Also mobile and desktop CPU's with Iris Pro 580 should be out in any day and Iris 550 very soon.
I predict that there's going to be an immediate release of new Macs when all these components are available:
- new retina Macbook Pro 13" or 14" with Iris Pro 550
- new retina Macbook Pro 15" or 16" with Iris Pro 580 or Polaris 11 dGPU.
- updated Mac Pro with Broadwell-EP and Polaris 10 Pro and XT
- new external display with HDR 10-bit panel and DP 1.3/1.4 through usb-c
- Macbook Air says bye bye, because next 13-14" Pro is not far from that form factor
- new retina iMac 21.5" and 27" 5k (basic model) with Iris Pro 580
- updated 27" 5k retina iMac with Polaris 10. My guess is that Apple renames it iMac Pro and it comes with 10bit HDR panel. Space gray, anyone?
For Mac mini, I suppose it'll be new, redesigned product, but don't want to guess more.. I have no clue, except Apples' obsession it to be MINI
Thank you. I find that a little cheering.
Why is everyone acting all surprised that there hasn't been a major update to rMBP for three years?
Well, the reason is Intel hasn't really given Apple a whole lot to work with for the past three years for all that tic-and-toc. Cook isn't going to spend all that R&D on a major revamp if the only thing that could've been really considered a upgrade is the graphics card. Couple this with Jony's obsession with thinness, you get your current rMBP lineup. Battery life and graphic power pulls on opposite ends of a computer's performance. You don't find top gaming laptops in the market right now that are not bulky and have a long battery life.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Well, the reason is Intel hasn't really given Apple a whole lot to work with for the past three years for all that tic-and-toc. Cook isn't going to spend all that R&D on a major revamp if the only thing that could've been really considered a upgrade is the graphics card. Couple this with Jony's obsession with thinness, you get your current rMBP lineup. Battery life and graphic power pulls on opposite ends of a computer's performance. You don't find top gaming laptops in the market right now that are not bulky and have a long battery life.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
"I think sometime in the not so distant future, OS X and iOS will merge"
This is already happening. It began back in Lion with "Back to the Mac", and now with macOS.
When iOS first came out it was really "OS X lite". OS X Lion aimed to bring iOS features to the Mac, but the driver was OS X, not iOS.
Sadly, Apple has been moving in the opposite direction since Yosemite (well, Mavericks really and the firing of Scott Forstall).
Now OS X is macOS, meaning OS X is now becoming "iOS Pro" it seems. We'll see.
On my Macs (2012 15" cMBP, 2011 iMac 27 & 17" cMBP), Mountain Lion runs better than anything else, including El Cap (which is not too bad, I admit).
Looks like macOS will effectively KILL my Mac use past my current hardware, but I'll wait and see what they do on the hardware side.
That said, that idea doesn't hurt so much. I already don't use iOS, keep OS X installers on external drives locally (frak the App Store), and my (old) Macs are still fast and sweet (for what I do) after all these years. Especially with dual (for my MBPs) SSD upgrades and maxed out RAM prospects in the near future (which I haven't done yet).
Thank God for the aftermarket. I might seek out old 2012/2011 hardware (like a MP, for example), but they STILL command a pretty penny.
Not using multi processor or not using more cores than i7 has available. And for a long time they cost about the same as the equivalent i7.
(Viewed from the UK, the page shows the lab running from midnight, until 02:00 Saturday morning.)
It's now past 03:00 on Saturday in the UK. I guess that WWDC is drawing to a close, attendees are leaving. Time for this, a reply to a 2014 topic:
– I chose to not go public during WWDC.
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[Xeons not being a good deal if one is] not able to make use of 8+ processor cores is a probably a better statement. And yes, they used to be not too much more than equivalent i7s. Unfortunately Intel realised it had a great position in the high-end server and number-crunching market and capitalised on that.
Edit: To be fair, Xeons also have more PCIe lanes (and other I/O bandwidth) than i7s. If you need a lot of them for beefy graphic cards and lots of other I/O, then Xeons are also the appropriate solution.
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Pssst, you're making too much sense.
And you know what would happen if a Skylake 13" rMBP and the entry-level 15" rMBP has a lower graphics performance than their Broadwell versions.
They had to put something into the base to make it heavy enough.
Seriously, the SurfaceBook can distribute the two main heat-generating items, CPU and discrete GPU into two completely separate parts. With the Mac Pro, I think they do. Three years is simply too long. With the MBP, I don't think so much, having a 15-month cycle once instead of the usual 12-month one (which used to be set by Intel) is not a catastrophe.
The PC market profits from being able to offer all features ('retina' screen, thinness, discrete GPU, long battery life, ...), just not all in one model. Whatever one thinks is lacking in a given Mac laptop, there is always a PC laptop that has exactly this missing feature. In a sense, sometimes a Mac is compared to a portfolio of PCs.
So if they're not announcing any new Macbook Pro models, then the only thing left for them to do is to announce the end of manufacturing.
That's okay by me, I wasn't looking forward to un-upgradable components anyway. It's ironic how that fat little PC guy is looking pretty good these days.
"I'm a PC, I have no idea where my friend Mac is. Honestly."
(muffled question from off-camera)
"What? Oh no, I didn't take him on a long drive down a dark dirt road; why would you ask such a thing?"
That's okay by me, I wasn't looking forward to un-upgradable components anyway. It's ironic how that fat little PC guy is looking pretty good these days.
"I'm a PC, I have no idea where my friend Mac is. Honestly."
(muffled question from off-camera)
"What? Oh no, I didn't take him on a long drive down a dark dirt road; why would you ask such a thing?"
Sad to say that after being exclusively Mac for the last 10 years, I find myself considering a Windows/Hackintosh for my son. His 2010 iMac is grinding to a halt and I want a fast replacement with a decent graphics card for some gaming. Just doesn't exist...
Big shame, plus the last price-rise in Europe was extortionate - noting too that they didn't drop the prices back in the meantime.
Can believe I may actually buy a PC, but there you go!
Big shame, plus the last price-rise in Europe was extortionate - noting too that they didn't drop the prices back in the meantime.
Can believe I may actually buy a PC, but there you go!
My initial point was that Apple has not updated the TB Display because they can't do it at a price point that won't negatively effect / de-value the iMac, or make the TB Display way overpriced. Regardless of the challenges of making the iMac capable of being used in target mode as a stand-alone display, Apple has not been keeping up with the shift to 4k / 5k (other than the iMacs) which is another issue, and as I just noted, it's likely a cost / value issue in making a display only 4k / 5k product.
I would also bet money on this very issue also effecting Apple's not getting into the TV market. They can't bring enough differentiation and value to the market and make money and not de-value existing products like the iMac.
I don't believe it's a question of "challenges". Judging by what Apple have been up to recently I believe the point is to force you to buy a new computer when the iMac becomes too slow. If they didn't disable the target mode you might buy a Windows box or a Mac Mini. iMacs have much nicer profit margins.
I tried a couple of times with a PC computer... it doesn't work as well so I gave up. Never actually built one from the ground up though.
How long ago was this?
Oh, and..."gave up"
That's your problem right there. With lack of innovation and lack of new products, I sincerely believe that Mac is on its way to meet the dodo bird.
You're going to have to remove the phrase "gave up" from your lexicon. Well, unless you give up....
I've just looked at this thread's title again and I thought – what if the second half of 2016 is NOT going to be busy? iPhone 7, Watch 2 and that's it?
Well, its happened before (when Intel killed off the NVIDIA chipset that the 13" MBPs used to use). Or, they could badge it as an Air or some other alternative - and make discrete GPUs one of the "unique selling points" of the Pro range.
The Skylake "HD" graphics probably give the old Broadwell "Iris" graphics a run for their money, anyway.
...except Apple were the ones who pioneered "retina" displays in the MacBook Pros in the first place, when the rest of the industry had stuck at 1080p. AFAIK all the current Macs can support third-party 4k displays.
Meanwhile - until DP 1.3 gets wide adoption, there's no way of connecting an external 5k display (or a pair of 4ks) at decent refresh rates that isn't a bit of a kludge - and the majority of Apples range uses Intel iGPUs which don't show signs of supporting DP1.3 anytime soon.
The Thunderbolt display has been neglected ever since the introduction of USB 3, more so since Thunderbolt 2 - forget 4k - and while conspiracy theories are fun, the simplest explanation is that Apple have a warehouse full of the things valued at $1k-a-pop selling slowly but steadily. They probably hoped that every other MBP customer since 2011 would have ticked the "Yeah, I want a $1k display and docking station with that" box - and were disappointed.
I haven't noticed a rush by 3rd parties to make Thunderbolt displays (LG do some, but not with Ethernet/webcam/mic).
Thanks djacopille, I think you just summed up my thoughts exactly in your post. As a pro user of Apple's hardware for the past 20+ years, I am disheartened and disappointed at the apparent lack of commitment to new, competitive updates. The past several years have shown a company determined to make products thinner and smaller with less regard for functionality. I appreciate the aesthetics, but not at the expense of performance and essential features. I guess I should have seen this coming when "Computer" was removed from Apple's name. This is the first time that I have ever considered moving to a PC, but I need get the work done. Thank you for your post, well stated. I am hoping those with influence at Apple actually get the message.
People are crying out loud that Apple has failed and betrayed them and doesn't update regularly. Ok, Mac mini is a big fail, but even it might suffer the same thing I'm going to explain here.
The only real matter were Apple has failed is to communicate with us. They should be humble like Steve was in front of the audience in the early 2000. (Just look at those event videos, Steve is apologizing that they haven't updated their Macs as frequently as they should have.) This is their main sin. No communication.
Here are some facts and some assumption what might have happened.
You see, AMD was supposed to release TSMC 20nm GPUs late 2014/early 2015. But the 20nm process failed, and the whole 20nm GPU line was cancelled. Apple had to cancel Mac Pro 2015 and they were forced to update rMBP 15" with M370 instead of something they wanted. They were planning to release 5k monitor as standalone, but there was no GPU going to drive it without Apple creating a new connector or cable that needs two TB2's'. USB-c and DP 1.3 specs were out already, but no GPU to drive it. And Intel was way late with Thunderbolt 3 and Skylake. So instead Apple had to make iMac 5k with custom chip to drive the display trough DP 1.2 MST.
Same time Intel's roadmap failed big time as well. Broadwell was late more than six months (Xeon-EP is late nearly one year) and it proved to be hotter than expected at 45W mobile category (At the end, Intel gave it 47W TDP) without any real speed benefit. So Apple couldn't put it with the also hot M370 to rMBP 15". 13" rMBP got finally its Broadwell, but way late.. and it wasn't the screamer everybody had hoped.
Intel announced Skylake Iris Pro 580 last January this year, but they still struggle to deliver it. Iris 550 is also to be announced. These chips are late and the reason we don't have redesigned rMPB 13" an 15" out yet. Apple was going to discontinue Macbook Air early this year, but because they couldn't deliver the new Pro 13, Air is still here. With the old Pro.
Because AMD failed to deliver, Apple didn't see it worthwhile to release just a Haswell update for Mac Pro. It delivers +7% increase to CPU performance with 7% heat increase and Apple didn't have any new options for GPU's (because Nvidia is played out now and AMD failed). So, no MP update. And Intel and AMD charge the same for their components, so Apple didn't feel lowering the price point either. Because they are not discontinuing the Pro, nor going to lower its price point.
Intel just released (a week or two ago) Broadwell-EP 1600-series Xeons. When they're able to deliver them to Apple is not known. Also, AMD just released Polaris 10 and 11, that are perfect chips for next gen Macs. Apple has waited these chips more than a year, thanks to the failed 20nm process. Also mobile and desktop CPU's with Iris Pro 580 should be out in any day and Iris 550 very soon.
I predict that there's going to be an immediate release of new Macs when all these components are available:
- new retina Macbook Pro 13" or 14" with Iris Pro 550
- new retina Macbook Pro 15" or 16" with Iris Pro 580 or Polaris 11 dGPU.
- updated Mac Pro with Broadwell-EP and Polaris 10 Pro and XT
- new external display with HDR 10-bit panel and DP 1.3/1.4 through usb-c
- Macbook Air says bye bye, because next 13-14" Pro is not far from that form factor
- new retina iMac 21.5" and 27" 5k (basic model) with Iris Pro 580
- updated 27" 5k retina iMac with Polaris 10. My guess is that Apple renames it iMac Pro and it comes with 10bit HDR panel. Space gray, anyone?
For Mac mini, I suppose it'll be new, redesigned product, but don't want to guess more.. I have no clue, except Apples' obsession it to be MINI
I think that this is a reasonable analysis, though I'm not so sure about the renamed iMac.
But it's important to remember that as much as we MacRumors readers want updated Macs, they only account for approximately 10% of Apple's revenues. That compares to 65% for iPhones (Q2 2016 data). Apple knows that people who don't want to switch to Windows will continue to buy Macs, even if their hardware is behind the competition. Updates to Apple's laptops and desktops will boost sales, but it's not as if Macs will rival iPhones as a revenue source.Apple's stock is struggling because of the prospect of a lackluster iPhone 7 cycle. The rumored iPhone 8 (or whatever Apple calls it) may turn things around as customers who skipped the iPhone 6s and iPhone 7 finally upgrade, but that's probably a year or so off.
Will Tim Cook acknowledge stagnation in the Mac product line? Despite the precedent—he publicly apologized for Apple Maps in 2012—I tend to believe that he won't. Apple has other, more glaring things to express regret about, such as Siri's failure to deliver on its initial promise and the sorry state of Apple's software quality control. I don't seen that happening, either.
There's a big difference between grumbling and genuine concern. I have read through a lot of these posts and I would say that the vast majority are from people who rely on Apple hardware for many reasons, and feel that one of the wealthiest and most innovative companies in the world is abandoning them with regard to hardware updates. When "invisible ink" and new emojis are the big news, but Mac Pros go three years without an update, I think people who have invested a great amount of time and money in Apple have some right to voice an opinion. What might be lame reasons to you may be very valid for them. Just a thought.
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True – but isn't it partly because they haven't been updated in ages? How many people on this forum alone are suddenly praising Dell and Samsung? I might be wrong and probably am, but I'd imagine most members didn't sign in to the MacRumors forums because they hate Apple.
Built (well, assembled) several PCs with Windows/Linux, never tried to Hackintosh one, though. No rocket science involved. Two of them were small-form-factor (Mini-ITX or similar) which were fiddly, full-size ATX or micro-ATX (which is bigger than Mini-ITX) is fairly straightforward.
However, if your desire to switch to USB-C/TB3 is part of your motivation, beware: I've yet to spot a motherboard with better than one USB-C and/or Thunderbolt 3 port - although there are always plenty of other ports (including things like PS/2 and VGA which make you think, why?) but rarely more than one of anything apart from oodles of USB-A (and even then, a hodge-podge of USB 2 only, USB 3, USB 3 + always on power etc. rather than just a block of USB-A/3.1.
I think my current TODO list could be:
1. First tick a couple of items of the higher-priority "TODO or else" list
2. Get better internet connection with on-demand TV to...
3. Free up the ridiculously over-specced Quad i7 Linux/MythTV box I put together to use as a PVR
4. Try Hackintoshing the above
No. Visionary CEOs make the recipe for success look simple. That doesn't mean it is simple. Jobs (a) had the ego to give the customer what he thought they needed rather than what they said they wanted and (b) was smart enough to get it right at least 2 times out of 3. (a) does not work without (b).
As for the "simple product range" thing: go look at the Dell website: Dell have got a mixture of laptops all called "XPS 15" including some with 1080p displays and some with 4k displays each in umpteen models with various permutations of RAM, SSD and GPU organised in no particular fashion on the same web page - and that's only one of several laptop lines: you can have an XPS 12, an XPS 13, an XPS 15 (each with/without 4k display as mentioned), an Inspiron 3000 in 2 sizes, an Inspiron 5000 in 3 sizes, an Inspiron 7000 in 13" or 17" sizes or an Inspiron 7000 Gaming in 15", or an AlienWare (for gaming, but obviously different from the Inspiron 7000 Gaming) in 13", 15" or 17" sizes...
That's what a "non-simple" product range looks like. HP, Lenovo etc. will be similar and, yeah, Apple were heading that way in the 90s. Apple are a long way from that now.