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True but......

What good does a cheap player do you if you can't buy the content you want on it? Amazon has the A2 for $309 (plus 5 free movies and free shipping).

Thats great if you really like Universal movies. I have a PS3 and an Xbox so I guess I am format neutral but the movies I really really want seem to be out on BD only.

Still, HD-DVD players are less costly than PS3s. These days you can get the Toshiba HD-A2 for $400 at Best Buy, including 4 free HD-DVD titles.
 
What good does a cheap player do you if you can't buy the content you want on it? Amazon has the A2 for $309 (plus 5 free movies and free shipping).
I'd go for that Amazon deal if I were in the market. I create my own content in high definition as a video editor and shooter. Plus, with the content I don't create, such as over-the-air high definition material, making HD-DVDRs in DVD Studio Pro would be convenient for time-shifting.
Thats great if you really like Universal movies. I have a PS3 and an Xbox so I guess I am format neutral but the movies I really really want seem to be out on BD only.
Universal or Warner Brothers, right?

Here's a question: If movie studios were impartial, meaning if Sony were not using its position to promote BD, which format would win?

My guess is HD-DVD for movies and BD for data.
 
Here's a question: If movie studios were impartial, meaning if Sony were not using its position to promote BD, which format would win?

My guess is HD-DVD for movies and BD for data.

HD-DVD should have dominated at this point as it a) had the production capacity in place, and b) it is capable of combo HD-DVD/DVD disks.

Whether Sony's PS3 BD integration gave BD an edge or no, the advantage is mildly in favor of BD, but with the bulk of the Studios behind BD, this can only put pressure on HD-DVD market share. More to the point, why would content creators not choose BD capacity over HD-DVD?

I expect that the first Apple BTO will be a BD burner (more readily available), with an HD-DVD burner or combo unit sometime later.
 
HD-DVD should have dominated at this point as it a) had the production capacity in place, and b) it is capable of combo HD-DVD/DVD disks.

Whether Sony's PS3 BD integration gave BD an edge or no, the advantage is mildly in favor of BD, but with the bulk of the Studios behind BD, this can only put pressure on HD-DVD market share. More to the point, why would content creators not choose BD capacity over HD-DVD?

I expect that the first Apple BTO will be a BD burner (more readily available), with an HD-DVD burner or combo unit sometime later.

The PS3 thing isn't as big a factor as Sony releasing on BD only. I was thinking more of the exclusive BD releases from Sony when I posed the question about Sony using its position to push BD. Sony's movie studios make a lot of movies and they may never be released on HD DVD.

To answer your question, why content creators wouldn't choose BD's capacity over HD DVD, the simple answer is that both formats have plenty of capacity for feature length movies and extras.

HD DVD is 15 / 30GB, with 47GB 3-layer discs on the horizon, while BDs are 25GB, with 50GB having production problems and 200GB existing in some faroff laboratory.

MPEG2 HD DVD / BD requires more capacity, but VC1 and AVC/H.264 are way more efficient with bandwidth by comparison, so anything encoded in the latter two will be fine on HD DVD. Actually, a 90-100 minute feature can safely fit on a 15GB disc, even if it's encoded as MPEG2 at 19mbps. 30GB HD DVDs have more than enough capacity.

Regular people will burn entire seasons of TV shows in standard definition onto single BDs and HD DVDs, but I highly doubt that any studio will release such a product commercially.
 
The PS3 thing isn't as big a factor as Sony releasing on BD only. I was thinking more of the exclusive BD releases from Sony when I posed the question about Sony using its position to push BD. Sony's movie studios make a lot of movies and they may never be released on HD DVD.

Disney (including Pixar) and Fox are BD exclusive, too.

To answer your question, why content creators wouldn't choose BD's capacity over HD DVD, the simple answer is that both formats have plenty of capacity for feature length movies and extras. HD DVD is 15 / 30GB, with 47GB 3-layer discs on the horizon, while BDs are 25GB, with 50GB having production problems

Triple layer HD DVDs are being discussed right now in the DVD forum, which means they are vaporware/a PR move. And if they'll actually become part of the format, first gen HD DVD players very probably won't be able to play them. – Anyway, if 30 GB are enough for feature films, as you say, why propose triple layer discs at all?

As far as BD is concerned, Sony just gave away 500.000 50 GB discs of Casino Royale for the european launch of the PS3... doesn't look like they're having production problems to me. :) Oh, and Sony as well as Disney very recently said that they plan to release 80% of their movies on 50 GB discs in the future. For example both Pirates of the Caribbean movies will be released as 50 GB discs PLUS a 25 GB bonus disc. That's 75 GB for every PotC movie... doesn't sound like 30 GB is enough, does it?

Btw. Blu-ray has not only higher capacity, but also higher bandwith, making it possible to use higher bitrates for video and audio. The format has just way more potential as a whole.

MPEG2 HD DVD / BD requires more capacity, but VC1 and AVC/H.264 are way more efficient with bandwidth by comparison

Right, but why not use efficient codecs AND higher capacity/bandwith? Can't hurt, can it?
 
Blu-ray has not only higher capacity, but also higher bandwith, making it possible to use higher bitrates for video and audio. The format has just way more potential as a whole.

And Blu-ray disks are incredibly resistant...
 
Oh, and Sony as well as Disney very recently said that they plan to release 80% of their movies on 50 GB discs in the future. For example both Pirates of the Caribbean movies will be released as 50 GB discs PLUS a 25 GB bonus disc. That's 75 GB for every PotC movie... doesn't sound like 30 GB is enough, does it?

What that sounds like is a commitment to continue to use MPEG2 at high bitrates instead of VC1 or AVC/H.264. It also sounds like an old anti-piracy technique, similar to using dual-layer DVDs in the years before dual-layer burners were readily available to consumers.

Anyhow, you're stretching by claiming "75GB" for every movie. MPEG2 on many BDs looks like junk unless one is immune to macroblocking and noise (which is not film grain). And if one can't notice that, he or she is better suited to saving their money and sticking with regular DVDs.

I know that MPEG2 encoding is a matter of the encoder and that it in and of itself doesn't determine bad quality. But one would think that movie studios would take the encoding seriously. It took them until what, Casino Royale to actually make a good-looking BD title.
 
What that sounds like is a commitment to continue to use MPEG2 at high bitrates instead of VC1 or AVC/H.264. It also sounds like an old anti-piracy technique, similar to using dual-layer DVDs in the years before dual-layer burners were readily available to consumers.

Anyhow, you're stretching by claiming "75GB" for every movie. MPEG2 on many BDs looks like junk unless one is immune to macroblocking and noise (which is not film grain). And if one can't notice that, he or she is better suited to saving their money and sticking with regular DVDs.

I know that MPEG2 encoding is a matter of the encoder and that it in and of itself doesn't determine bad quality. But one would think that movie studios would take the encoding seriously. It took them until what, Casino Royale to actually make a good-looking BD title.

You are seriously misinformed. Both Pirates movies will be encoded in AVC, so using 75 GB of capacity has nothing to do with mpeg2 in this case. And have you ever seen any Blu-ray movies? There are tons that look and sound absolutely spectacular, and a lot of them were released way before Casino Royale. Please check the ratings of professional hi-def disc review websites if you don't believe me.

In the very beginning there were several less than optimal Blu-ray discs released, but those days are long gone.
 
We wont see any HD capabilities in Macs until Leopard.

In order to play full 1080p BluRay, you need complete HDCP support from the OS to the hardware. Seeing as Tiger or even the Cinema Displays do not support HDCP, there is *no way* bluray drives will be released before Leopard and a refresh of the hardware.

As for the battle, Blu Ray has already won. They have pretty much unanimous movie industry support and a player built into every PS3.
 
:)

You know what, the year 2005 was really bad for me but I've kept that sig through 2006 and now 2007. I may change my sig but I think it's funny in a subtle way. Really though, we're in an era of HD.

The sig has been timely for three years because the claim was ironic due to its partial falsity. But now that Apple has blown the roof off of HD products it may be time for a sig upgrade, perhaps to era, but then your sig would go from ironic to literal :(

I waited a while to decide what my sig should be. I wanted to be "inspired". Yours certainly has been for years. Then Steevie messed that up this week :D

Rocketman
 
As for the battle, Blu Ray has already won. They have pretty much unanimous movie industry support and a player built into every PS3.

I don't agree. I am not saying that BR won't win but i don't think the war is won yet. PS3 is no way to win a war.....they are not exactly selling well despite what Sony claim. They have never sold out once here in the UK yet. I don't believe thats due to Sony having a good supply as they only have 1 million available across Europe on launch day. Everyone i know won't touch a PS3 as its too expensive so having PS3 in your argument at this point in time is not valid.

I agree it has unrivaled movie company support.....but why is HD-DVD still around? Clearly those that produce HD-DVD discs and players don't see the war as won and i'd argue they know better than you when a war is won or lost.
 
I don't agree. I am not saying that BR won't win but i don't think the war is won yet. PS3 is no way to win a war.....they are not exactly selling well despite what Sony claim. They have never sold out once here in the UK yet. I don't believe thats due to Sony having a good supply as they only have 1 million available across Europe on launch day. Everyone i know won't touch a PS3 as its too expensive so having PS3 in your argument at this point in time is not valid.

I agree it has unrivaled movie company support.....but why is HD-DVD still around? Clearly those that produce HD-DVD discs and players don't see the war as won and i'd argue they know better than you when a war is won or lost.

The argument is completely valid. Have you seen the sales figures? PS3 alone (not counting standalone bluray drives) has outsold the entire HD DVD sales by 5-1. And as you say, PS3 isnt exactly flying off the shelves just yet. So what happens when there is a price cut on the PS3 and the first AAA titles land? Its over for HD DVD, seriously. The movie industry prefers the more stringent security that blu ray offers for copy protection, the PS3 will sell its usual 70-100m units and the likes of Apple, HP and Dell are firmly in their court.
 
The argument is completely valid. Have you seen the sales figures? PS3 alone (not counting standalone bluray drives) has outsold the entire HD DVD sales by 5-1.

Post your sources

So what happens when there is a price cut on the PS3 and the first AAA titles land? Its over for HD DVD, seriously.

Firstly a price cut will be around 6-12 months away. Secondly the 'its over for HD-DVD' is merely your opinion. The above comments on this thread have stated the war has been won.......in reality that is not the case. The war is won when HD-DVD drives and discs are no longer sold.

The movie industry prefers the more stringent security that blu ray offers for copy protection, the PS3 will sell its usual 70-100m units and the likes of Apple, HP and Dell are firmly in their court.

Firstly quote your source where the movie companies are stating that. Secondly Apple has not backed BR. It hasn't backed either it is waiting and watching. We all expect them to go BR but as i just said it is not confirmed. I can't speak for HP and Dell as i have not watched them but i would say they will be the same as Apple.
 
Post your sources



Firstly a price cut will be around 6-12 months away. Secondly the 'its over for HD-DVD' is merely your opinion. The above comments on this thread have stated the war has been won.......in reality that is not the case. The war is won when HD-DVD drives and discs are no longer sold.



Firstly quote your source where the movie companies are stating that. Secondly Apple has not backed BR. It hasn't backed either it is waiting and watching. We all expect them to go BR but as i just said it is not confirmed. I can't speak for HP and Dell as i have not watched them but i would say they will be the same as Apple.

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/04/sony_publish_ab.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Sales

At the end of April, HD DVD players were at 800,000. The PS3 is currently at 3.2m. The point is that it is selling it 5-1 (8-1 this month) at the high price point. You would expect it to be even more prominent at the price drop.

Apple hasnt backed Bluray? Then why do they sit on the board?

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blu+ray+apple+board

HP is flapping a little, but Dell has already released a laptop and desktop with a bluray drive.

Bluray has the momentum. It is clear as crystal to see this. Even Microsoft knows its a 'dead' format by not including it in the 360 at any SKU - yet they are official supporters of HD DVD.
 
http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/04/sony_publish_ab.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Sales

At the end of April, HD DVD players were at 800,000. The PS3 is currently at 3.2m. The point is that it is selling it 5-1 (8-1 this month) at the high price point. You would expect it to be even more prominent at the price drop.

Apple hasnt backed Bluray? Then why do they sit on the board?

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blu+ray+apple+board

HP is flapping a little, but Dell has already released a laptop and desktop with a bluray drive.

Bluray has the momentum. It is clear as crystal to see this. Even Microsoft knows its a 'dead' format by not including it in the 360 at any SKU - yet they are official supporters of HD DVD.

Oh those are great sources.....first one published by Sony! Add in the 500,000 free copies of Casino Royale to that did they? Having to give away movies because their discs are not selling! Not only that but the month of figures they released is the month when there were no new HD-DVD titles out.....therefore there would be an obvious dip in sales for HD-DVD making the apparent ration larger. Statistics can be wangled in anyones favour. Not being funny but until an independant body releases figures i won't believe the ones sony have released. You miss the point anyway, those are games consoles! equating games consoles sales to 'dvd player' sales is a dumb comparison. Granted the PS3 has a blu-ray player in but it was bought as a console. People in the market for a player and nothing else are holding off until this format war is over. Give me pure statistics on the number of standalone HD-DVD sales vs BR Standalone players from an independant source then we will talk.

Also Apple sit on the board...they do not officially 100% back it. Any company can sit on the board and not back the format. You will notice some companies sit on the boards of both....its so they gain greater inside knowledge of both formats. I found a great site that listed the levels at which various companies sit on the media boards.......Apple was actually registered for HD-DVD as a 'partner company'. I can't remember the official titles etc and if i find the site again i will post it. Basically Apple will go which ever way the cookie crumbles. If Apple don't put blu-ray drives in their new line up then i think my point is proven.....i wouldn't be surprised if apple don't offer BTO options between the two formats.

There maybe ~170 companies are in the Blu Ray Disc Association but are there not over 220 companies in the DVD Forum that adopted HD DVD as the official next generation to DVD? And do you think Sony did itself any favours when it didnt allow BR to be used in the Adult Entertainment business? HD-DVD is the official format the porn industry is using. Sony's recent decision to not support the adult entertainment industry may repeat the same mistake betamax had. No porn = no business; porn is a extremely lucrative market.

Lets not mention that there are more titles out on HD-DVD currently and at least in my country HD-DVD discs are cheaper and the drives certainly are! As for the Xbox360.....maybe MS decided it best not to alienate its existing users. It sells the standalone drive at a bloody cheap price. Xbox360+drive still cheaper than the PS3.

Oh and on a final note.....HD-DVD is backed by MS (and intel). 80%+ market share in the PC world. I wouldn't say it's all over for HD-DVD and i certainly would not say the war is lost.
 
Oh those are great sources.....first one published by Sony! Add in the 500,000 free copies of Casino Royale to that did they? Having to give away movies because their discs are not selling! Not only that but the month of figures they released is the month when there were no new HD-DVD titles out.....therefore there would be an obvious dip in sales for HD-DVD making the apparent ration larger. Statistics can be wangled in anyones favour. Not being funny but until an independant body releases figures i won't believe the ones sony have released. You miss the point anyway, those are games consoles! equating games consoles sales to 'dvd player' sales is a dumb comparison. Granted the PS3 has a blu-ray player in but it was bought as a console. People in the market for a player and nothing else are holding off until this format war is over. Give me pure statistics on the number of standalone HD-DVD sales vs BR Standalone players from an independant source then we will talk.

Also Apple sit on the board...they do not officially 100% back it. Any company can sit on the board and not back the format. You will notice some companies sit on the boards of both....its so they gain greater inside knowledge of both formats. I found a great site that listed the levels at which various companies sit on the media boards.......Apple was actually registered for HD-DVD as a 'partner company'. I can't remember the official titles etc and if i find the site again i will post it. Basically Apple will go which ever way the cookie crumbles. If Apple don't put blu-ray drives in their new line up then i think my point is proven.....i wouldn't be surprised if apple don't offer BTO options between the two formats.

There maybe ~170 companies are in the Blu Ray Disc Association but are there not over 220 companies in the DVD Forum that adopted HD DVD as the official next generation to DVD? And do you think Sony did itself any favours when it didnt allow BR to be used in the Adult Entertainment business? HD-DVD is the official format the porn industry is using. Sony's recent decision to not support the adult entertainment industry may repeat the same mistake betamax had. No porn = no business; porn is a extremely lucrative market.

Lets not mention that there are more titles out on HD-DVD currently and at least in my country HD-DVD discs are cheaper and the drives certainly are! As for the Xbox360.....maybe MS decided it best not to alienate its existing users. It sells the standalone drive at a bloody cheap price. Xbox360+drive still cheaper than the PS3.

Oh and on a final note.....HD-DVD is backed by MS (and intel). 80%+ market share in the PC world. I wouldn't say it's all over for HD-DVD and i certainly would not say the war is lost.

1. The release was by Sony based on official figures. The reason they were talking it up is because Bluray was winning. PR yes. Lies? No. You can find these official figures from numerous sources.

2. "Any company can sit on the board and not back the format. " - but Apple DO back it. Go look at the Jobs quotes. Whether they dont adopt HD DVD is neither here nor there. If the market dictates it, then they will have to have BTO HD DVD options. But as it stands, Apple clearly favours Blu Ray.

3. While porn is a lucrative industry, it is nothing like the olden days where it had a bigger say in the format wars. Porn distribution has moved to the internet in a huge way, both SD and HD. Also, Sony has NOT excluded the adult entertainment industry from playing on Bluray. However, the porn industry are supporting HD DVD as you said.


4. The PS2 kickstarted the DVD revolution. I know it was mine and many other peoples first DVD player. I havent bought a standalone DVD player since. To marginalise the impact of a games machine on a format is naive at best.
 
1. The release was by Sony based on official figures. The reason they were talking it up is because Bluray was winning. PR yes. Lies? No. You can find these official figures from numerous sources.

......

*EDIT* = DELETED FOR PRIVACY REASONS

Again quoting your source:

"For the week ending March 18, VideoScan put Blu-ray as having sold 844,000 units since inception, versus 708,600 HD DVDs sold."

So you claim the war is won thanks to ~140,000 more discs sold. Thats peanuts! I bet Sonys figure includes the half a million they gave away!

I also notice you totally ignored my point about the 200+ companies in the DVD forum advocating HD-DVD as the next format.

*EDIT* = DELETED FOR PRIVACY REASONS
 
And reading some of your posts you appear to be also. You seem to have a very narrow mind for BR. In fact if its all as good as you say why are we in a format war?

You seriously think we have this format war because there's something inherently "wrong" about Blu-ray? And Toshiba and Microsoft – which are the main companys behind HD-DVD – are the only ones to understand this while all the other CE giants (Sony, Panasonic, Pioneer, Sharp, Samsung etc.) and all major movie studios (except Universal) are too blind to see? Wow...

What this "war" is really all about is money, of course. To be more precise, the license fees that everyone who releases a Blu-ray disc or a HD-DVD has to pay. Historically, Toshiba has made huge amounts of money from DVD license fees because they have a big part of that license pool. When the technology that has become Blu-ray was presented to the DVD forum, Toshiba didn't like it because their license share would have been way smaller. So they proposed their own format, largely based on DVD technology/patents, which eventually became HD-DVD, and the other companys founded the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA). As both formats were further developed, everybody knew it wouldn't be a good idea to have two formats because consumer confusion would slow down establishing Hi-def in the market. Just as Toshiba was, due to the overwhelming support for Blu-ray, finally ready to cave in and talk about merging the formats, Microsoft became their knight in shining armour and provided substantial backing, financially and otherwise. As for their motives, it's clear that a runaway success of Blu-ray would have made the PS3 a far more attractive console. Plus a lot of people think that MS actually wants this war to linger on, keeping both formats down until Hi-def downloads take off, provided by Microsoft, of course...

So you see, I'm not narrow-minded at all. I think both formats would have been "good enough" if there would never have been a "war". As it is, Blu-ray just has better specs and thus way more potential (more capacity and, almost more importantly, more bandwith). Plus it's more realistic that Blu-ray will actually win so that there'll eventually be just one format, which IMO is really necessary to bring Hi-def to the masses. I really don't want to be stuck with downloadable Hi-def, as the quality, due to storage and bandwith restrictions, won't be nearly as good as what we have today on Blu-ray.

So you claim the war is won thanks to ~140,000 more discs sold. Thats peanuts! I bet Sonys figure includes the half a million they gave away!

Of course not. That's just silly. Do you actually want to have an honest and fact-based conversation about this? Then maybe do some research before posting silly stuff like this.

I also notice you totally ignored my point about the 200+ companies in the DVD forum advocating HD-DVD as the next format.

Most of those are just small companys who don't have any stake in Hi-Def. Also, all of the Blu-ray backers are also still part of the DVD forum because the DVD forum mostly deals with, you guessed it, DVD royalties.

Let me ask you what anyone except Toshiba and Microsoft has really done for HD-DVD. Face the facts, those are the only companys behind that format and thus they prolong this format war.
 
If Microsoft was really pushing/believing in HD DVD then their new X-box 360 Elite would have it built in. Since it is still just an add-on, I feel even Microsoft is hesitating.

I think that indicates the field is tilting towards Blu Ray.
 
The whole Blu-Ray / HD-DVD thing is a cluster. Everyone in the industry knew this would happen but instead of working together they fought each other to see who would get the "winning" technology. Now we're going to end up with both and it's going to suck instead of having a single, powerful standard.
 
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