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Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash
- Thread starter TapHappy
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I'm just curious. Have you ever used Flash on a Mac before (perhaps a non-Corei7 Mac)?
I ask this in all seriousness. Until last year I was a Windows user, and although I didn't like Flash because of its proprietary nature, I never understood the vitriol expressions of hatred toward the architecture until I bought a Mac. To put it bluntly, it just sucks balls on OS X.
It stands to reason that it would be equally poor on an iPhone. Putting aside your own political-economic motivations, as well as those that Apple may or may not hold, can you not acknowledge that Apple made a technical-consumer-based decision to exclude Flash from the iPhone?
If you can answer that question without dodging it or committing a logical fallacy I'll leave you alone.
EDIT:
As an aside, I find it somewhat irresponsible, if your bio can be trusted, that you offer development expertise to companies given your bias toward Flash. You've been arguing in a distinctly Marxian tone, but it seems to me that you aren't being very practical about things. You know as well as I do that most Flash content delivery is video.
You should also know that hereto HTML5 does not offer the kinds of analytics and security for video delivery that Flash does. You must also know that the days of Flash's unchallenged supremacy in this area are numbered (especially given the rise of javascript libraries like jQuery). It stands to reason that a sensible developer - no matter his stripe - would advice a company to pursue web standards precisely because of their cost-effectiveness and compatibility moving forward (in a word: assurance).
There is no guarantee that Adobe Flash as a plugin will remain dominant - the iPhone is demonstrative of this. However, governing bodies like the W3C ensure to a large degree that open standards like HTML will remain available and accessible.
I sincerely hope that you present these facts to the companies that seek out your consultation, and do not offer advice solely for selfish economic gain.
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Yes on my MacBook Pro 17, I work with Flash all day, it's a powerful machine so it takes the load but the battery gets very hot. I never had that on PC in 17 years of PC prior to 2007. Disney converted me, I had a contract on location for 1.5 year and they would not let me enter the office with a PC
I enjoyed it there. Yes I can, absolutely. Apple had the right to make that choice but they pushed it too far. Keep in mind without EU Commission Flash developers would be banned from 19% of mobile market and 75-90% of mobile applications market. Steve Jobs did not wake up one day saying "I love Adobe today, let's make fools of ourselves and reverse the TOS".
Seconds is games and third is rich internet application, both segment in which Adobe is leading with Flash.
I am not an employee of Adobe, I own my own consulting company and I work for who I want and I work with what I want. I chose Adobe Flex, AIR and OSMF because there is nothing close to it.
Some developers are specialized in Java, some other in HTML5.
If HTML5 would be capable of delivering what I need to deliver I would have been among the first experts. I implemented the first mass market full CSS layout without a single HTML markup for pixel precise positioning with VH1, almost a decade ago when everyone else was behind still using HTML. Then same with Flash. I never worked with Flash at all prior to Flex and AS3 6 years ago, I have done HTML and CSS for 11 years. I kind of know what I am talking about.
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It sounds like you've been straddling Flash and HTML+CSS for as long as I've been solely developing with HTML+CSS. Please don't try to belittle others with your experience - you're not the only one with some degree of expertise.
Anyway, can you please name some Flash-based games. The last Flash-based game I came across was hosted at Newgrounds. I also don't know what "rich internet applications" means. It strikes me as an euphemism for "this also could have been developed with javascript".
What has Apple pushed too far with regard to Adobe? Are you referring to the compiler issue or to the exclusion of the Flash plugin from Safari? Or to Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash"? Please be more specific.
Anyway, can you please name some Flash-based games. The last Flash-based game I came across was hosted at Newgrounds. I also don't know what "rich internet applications" means. It strikes me as an euphemism for "this also could have been developed with javascript".
What has Apple pushed too far with regard to Adobe? Are you referring to the compiler issue or to the exclusion of the Flash plugin from Safari? Or to Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash"? Please be more specific.
I have no doubt about that and I respect it, and I think I made valid points as well. As I say, HTML5 and Flash will co-exist as HTML4 and Flash co-exist today.
I do not do games, and I only play playstation. I'm not up to date with games.
A Rich Internet Application (RIA) is a web application that has many of the characteristics of desktop applications, typically delivered either by way of a site-specific browser, via a browser plug-in, independent sandboxes, or virtual machines.[1] Adobe Flash, Java, and Microsoft Silverlight are currently the three most common platforms, with penetration rates around 99%, 80%, and 54% respectively (as of July 2010).[2] Although new web standards have emerged, they still use the principles behind RIAs. (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Internet_application
It's like desktop apps but on the web. I do not do games, nor animations, I never use Flash CS1-2-3-4-5 (timeline, for ads and animations, effects, drawings...), I work with Flex for applications on the web that have the touch and feel of desktop applications.
I can give you banks, entertainment companies, TV networks that is what I do., can't tell you about games
So RIAs are just web apps built on plugin architectures. Given that the major web apps like Facebook and Google (both of these products fit the Wiki definition) are built on HTML with javascript, I'm not sure that RIA is really a meaningful term except insofar as to describe an app that relies on a plugin.
In any event, I really don't understand what any of this has to do with Apple's technical decision to disallow Flash on the iPhone or why you would join MacRumors solely to debate the merits of Flash or of proprietary plugins in general. You seem like a reasonable guy, but you're coming off as a bit of a troll I'm afraid.
It's my understanding that Apple has always been willing to reevaluate its decision to disallow Flash assuming that Adobe can deliver a convincing, stable, reliable, and secure product. Given that it has hereto failed to do so, I really don't see why it's Apple's fault that Flash devs are being witheld from Apple's "walled garden".
I think your frustration is better directed to Adobe...
In any event, I really don't understand what any of this has to do with Apple's technical decision to disallow Flash on the iPhone or why you would join MacRumors solely to debate the merits of Flash or of proprietary plugins in general. You seem like a reasonable guy, but you're coming off as a bit of a troll I'm afraid.
It's my understanding that Apple has always been willing to reevaluate its decision to disallow Flash assuming that Adobe can deliver a convincing, stable, reliable, and secure product. Given that it has hereto failed to do so, I really don't see why it's Apple's fault that Flash devs are being witheld from Apple's "walled garden".
I think your frustration is better directed to Adobe...
I have no doubt about that and I respect it, and I think I made valid points as well. As I say, HTML5 and Flash will co-exist as HTML4 and Flash co-exist today.
I do not do games, and I only play PlayStation. I'm not up to date with games.
A Rich Internet Application (RIA) is a web application that has many of the characteristics of desktop applications, typically delivered either by way of a site-specific browser, via a browser plug-in, independent sandboxes, or virtual machines.[1] Adobe Flash, Java, and Microsoft Silverlight are currently the three most common platforms, with penetration rates around 99%, 80%, and 54% respectively (as of July 2010).[2] Although new web standards have emerged, they still use the principles behind RIAs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Internet_application
It's like desktop apps but on the web. I do not do games, nor animations, I never use Flash CS1-2-3-4-5 (timeline, for ads and animations, effects, drawings...), I work with Flex for applications on the web that have the touch and feel of desktop applications and that is it. Companies pay up to $225 hourly for guys like us, I cherry pick my clients and I create experiences. Not websites, experiences.
Yes Flash is very powerful and in the wrong hands (amateurs) it can be a real problem, but in civilized world we solve problem we don't kill each other (figure of speech). Memory leak can be a problem sometime, but the same will happen with HTML5 when companies are going to push it and do HTML5 ads that sucks the resources.
EDITED: from 2x to 1.5x
Meanwhile, Flash VM (a technical term for the core of Flash) is the fastest virtual machine that I know of, it is faster that Javascript, I render Charts 1.5x as fast as Javascript. HTML5 is based on Javascript. In plain English, HTML5 will never be as fast as Flash all the way to the core.
I can give you banks, entertainment companies, TV networks that is what I do, can't tell you about games tho
I guess FarmVille is very popular, I passed twice on Zynga's offers.
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So RIAs are just web apps built on plugin architectures. Given that the major web apps like Facebook and Google (both of these products fit the Wiki definition) are built on HTML with javascript, I'm not sure that RIA is really a meaningful term except insofar as to describe an app that relies on a plugin.
In any event, I really don't understand what any of this has to do with Apple's technical decision to disallow Flash on the iPhone or why you would join MacRumors solely to debate the merits of Flash or of proprietary plugins in general. You seem like a reasonable guy, but you're coming off as a bit of a troll I'm afraid.
It's my understanding that Apple has always been willing to reevaluate its decision to disallow Flash assuming that Adobe can deliver a convincing, stable, reliable, and secure product. Given that it has hereto failed to do so, I really don't see why it's Apple's fault that Flash devs are being witheld from Apple's "walled garden".
I think your frustration is better directed to Adobe...
In any event, I really don't understand what any of this has to do with Apple's technical decision to disallow Flash on the iPhone or why you would join MacRumors solely to debate the merits of Flash or of proprietary plugins in general. You seem like a reasonable guy, but you're coming off as a bit of a troll I'm afraid.
It's my understanding that Apple has always been willing to reevaluate its decision to disallow Flash assuming that Adobe can deliver a convincing, stable, reliable, and secure product. Given that it has hereto failed to do so, I really don't see why it's Apple's fault that Flash devs are being witheld from Apple's "walled garden".
I think your frustration is better directed to Adobe...
That is correct and I think the question is why, why does it require a plugin? If it can be done without why I can do stuff that you can't do with HTML5. We both made choices and once again we will co-exist, there will be applications build in Flash on iPhone and iPad thanks to the European Commission and there will be whatever else iPhone lets in or breaks in and the same will happen on Android, HTML5 and Adobe AIR will co-exist.
Have you used Facebook Chat and compared with a Flash chat? What if I bring live peer to peer audio video to Facebook's chat with no server? Or full HD movies group screening? Or just a kick ass Flex interface for Facebook and Youtube and AIR applications for each. I wish I had free time, I would make some of those. Maybe I will.
Why would Steve want to kill Flash? Can't he let both coexist?
I never said anywhere that I want to exterminate HTML5.
With all due respect I invite you to read the thread, not everyone has been against my points. I own as many Apple devices or more as many of you guys, why I should not be able to make my point without to be insulted? Or laughed at once I exhausted all arguments with valid counter arguments.
And what is a freaking troll around here anyway? I'm fresh arrived, the thread title caught my attention, I did not come here with the intention to attack you. I just get Google alerts and I only answer or comment when I know about the subject which I think I've proven.
If such is the case then Apple will let Flash in as soon as Adobe releases a stable version of Flash Player 10.2 demonstrated here on both PC and new MacBook AIR, which could be as early as a few weeks from now on all the new stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geK7geL3I40
Yes Adobe was late on the mobile market, hands down, yes Apple has legitimacy to call them on it and yes Adobe finally got it and delivered.
I personally believe Apple has no intention to do anything until either their customers or the regulator take care of it.
UPDATED: Why do I suddenly feel like I am finally having a debate with someone?
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Milani, you are being far too reasonable. The guy clearly has no intention of civil debate. He is merely here to promote his blog and to agitate readers whom he knows disagree vehemently with him.
Why else would someone continually, on an APPLE FORUM, scoff at Apple's abilities as programmers, denounce the company and Jobs as sinister, and deride everyone who has any measure of support for Apple? Undoubtedly, this guy is a troll, and I suggest that everyone simply put him on ignore like I did days ago.
Why else would someone continually, on an APPLE FORUM, scoff at Apple's abilities as programmers, denounce the company and Jobs as sinister, and deride everyone who has any measure of support for Apple? Undoubtedly, this guy is a troll, and I suggest that everyone simply put him on ignore like I did days ago.
When did he claim to "want to kill flash?" Again, you are making up Apple's position in order to justify your outrage. Apple hasn't "lied" about Flash. They aren't out to "kill" it. They just decided not to support it on their mobile devices. They are promoting an (open standard) alternative.
Still with "the regulators"? How is not providing plugin support in a browser illegal?
You asked about a civil discussion? Not making up stuff is a good start. Not confusing opinion and fact helps. Recognizing the difference between disagreement and malice is big. Not calling people liars because of a misunderstanding on your part would be nice.
I cast my vote for Flash. There are just too many sites using it and it's very frustrating to see white space where an animation should be. Adobe has a lock on developer tools so Flash isn't going to go away.
Maybe Apple could offer some type of degraded support, like an Apple sandbox that would limit features and graphics, thus eliminating ability to crash device, then work with them to move to HTML5.
This war just doesn't seem to have a winner.
Maybe Apple could offer some type of degraded support, like an Apple sandbox that would limit features and graphics, thus eliminating ability to crash device, then work with them to move to HTML5.
This war just doesn't seem to have a winner.
A demonstration is one thing, but to say they got it delivered may be a bit premature. I wouldn't let 10.2 touch my computer until it is proven in the wild for a good amount of time. Before I removed Flash, Safari may have gone a few days at a time without crashing (certainly long enough for a display), but it didn't prove itself to be stable for the long haul. When it can prove to be stable and remain stable, I would consider installing it. But as I have said, I haven't missed it, and removing it has made my browsing experience 100 times better.
Can't you also admit that their customers may be one of the reasons Apple doesn't want it on iOS? They haven't proven to be stable on OSX, why would we have any reason to believe it would any different on iOS?
And now customers have a choice. If they want a mobile OS with Flash there are plenty of alternatives to the iPhone. That being said, the iPhone continues to grow in sales from year to year. When iPhone 4 was released, there were alternatives, yet people continue to support the phone.
I just don't understand how you would think all of a sudden that consumers would, after 4 versions of the phone, all of a sudden demand that Apple put Flash on the phone? There are so many alternatives. If the iPhone doesn't meet all of their needs, they can go elsewhere. If the last year has proven anything, it has shown that Android and iOS can coexist together, and it has also shown that they both offer different experiences.
As far at the FTC investigation, wouldn't they have to prove that Apple was trying to monopolize the industry by not allowing developers to use Adobe tools (again, I didn't "analyze" the articles and won't pretend to be an expert). I can't see how, with the success of Android and it's App market, they would be able to force Apple to do anything.
You said developers have a chance to be banned from 75-90% of the mobile applications market. You also said that Android users don't use Apps. The facts show otherwise. And the more successful the Android apps are, the less of a case to be had against Apple. With the addition of so many new Android phones, and tablets, I think that 75-90% will dwindle rapidly.
As far as your comment about finally debating...I'm not sure what has happened, maybe a warning, but you are finally showing that you can at least try and be rational, even in disagreement.
Throughout this thread, when you were challenged on something you either used deflection or insults when backed in a corner. How can one debate something if you constantly changed the subject or answered with links or videos that had nothing to do with the current subject.
IE, you answered my rebuttal of "Android users don't buy Apps" with some long diatribe that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. Hard to debate with someone like that.
Just because my opinion differs from yours, and I don't think "Apple Sucks" doesn't mean that I am a lunatic.
This is just the Adobe - Apple issue. Apple, years ago now, called out Adobe about flash, gave them a chance to fix it. It took Adobe years to finally get something that MIGHT work. At this point, Apple has moved on, and no longer cares.
No one cares if he is going to debate now, the damage has been done. To most he has already lost all credibility.
Flash is dead. Steve should leave us alone.
In ALL seriousness though, I will be writing this next paragraph without my usual sarcasm and cynicism.
I have a small advertising studio that employs around 5 people. We do small scale motion graphics, commercials, film titles, business branding and websites. I haven't updated my site in a while and am currently in the process of launching a new one with a new market strategy, so I might lose credibility to those that notice it's not updated, but here it goes. I honestly used to LOVE flash. I used it for EVERY single website I did about 3 years ago. Literally. I am very avid in After Effects and Flash lends itself very much to this type of structure (keyframes, tweens etc.) It was very easy and gave impressive results.
As iphones and ipads came into existence, as well as other smartphones, I noticed a growing demand for mobile browsing and mobile versions of sites for people to get directions and phone numbers from, so obviously we (and the market) accommodated. Because the phones weren't (and for the most part, still aren't) powerful enough to run flash in it's full glory, we resorted to html, css, jquery, php etc. etc.
When Steve wrote the thoughts on flash, and we realized that flash will NEVER come to the iphone, ipad, and they are starting to not pre-install it on their laptops, we made a decision that we honestly haven't regretted at all. No flash, ever, on any site, from now on. 100% compatibility on Chrome, IE, Opera, Firefox, Safari, and all iOS devices.
Our business has expanded since the beginning and we've hired 3 more employees and branched out into radio and consulting. We now call ourselves (around the office) as "HTML 5 Evangelists." We meet with people and companies constantly and explain to them that flash doesn't work on any apple mobile device, and unless you have a VERY fast phone, (when most of the population just gets the free crappy ones) that it still won't run flash in any acceptable manner, and therefore we always encourage them to lean towards HTML 5.
I see 2 positives from this, 1) It won't ever crash a machine, nomatter what the device is, whether it be a phone, laptop, desktop, or tablet. 2) That it puts pressure on designers to become more creative, and more proficient in their field, and not substitute good, simple, easy to use, legible design, for flashy rainbows shooting across the screen. Flash can absolutely be a creative and design crutch, and distract from what truly is important. Instead of "are there too many navigation buttons at the top" or "is the right side of the screen balancing these heavy images on the left" it can become "wow look at those buttons bouncing to the music!" And the deep design flaw is candy-coated over.
I honestly believe, and hope, that flash gradually goes by the wayside for newer, better and more stable code. And I would (and will) say the same when something better than the current HTML5, jquery, and css comes into play in the future.
I'm telling you this because the chances are, we aren't the only studio doing this, and if enough of us begin to to take the split in the road towards purely code, you might want to honestly prepare yourself and adapt to still be at the top of your game (and honestly it sounds like you have begun to do more alternate code from your other posts, and I admire you for that).
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So, let's recap....
- You've got a job.
- 5% of the world's computers don't work well with your apps due to you using a crap system. (actually, Flash doesn't work great on Win, either, IME)
- You're offended.
- You've created your own website to rant about the 5% of us. (instead of about Adobe, who refuses to make Flash work well)
- But that's not enough, you've also decided to visit every other website you can find to rant about us. (per an earlier post of yours)
- When we talk back to you, you claim we are attacking your livelihood. Must be all the blogs MacRumors fans have started.
You've obviously missed the point:
The people here who dislike Flash are consumers of computer electronics, software, and web-based material. And you are alienating them.
Think that through from a business perspective, instead of with a chip on your shoulder. We aren't going to change our minds about a crap development platform just because it will help your pocketbook. No, really.
You're definitely not the only studio. I'm in the process of designing my site as well and I'm telling my developers that I don't want any Flash whatsoever. This is entirely driven by the fact that there are over 100 million iOS users in the world to whom I don't want to give limited access to my website. In addition, a site built entirely on Flash will have a tough time with search engine optimization (i.e., enabling search engines to find and index the site).
That was the predictable consequence of Apple's decision and they knew it. It's definitely working and shifting the market. It's also why they could never backtrack on their approach. An approach like that only works if one doesn't compromise.
From a consumer's perspective, I frankly hate it because I *don't* have access to the full web no matter how many times Steve Jobs tries to tell me that it's the best internet experience available. No, it's not a constant annoyance since few websites these days depend entirely on Flash. But, it definitely is an inconvenience to come across websites where entire swaths of white appear in lieu of content. The issue to me isn't video, it's navigating around Flash-based websites - and there are still many of those out in the world. If I had my way as a consumer, I'd have the option of turning Flash on or off (similar to ClickToFlash on the Mac) as necessary. That seems like a perfectly sensible approach, but one that Apple will probably never adopt because of the reasons stated above.
It is actually the other way around. You CAN'T do with HTML5 everything we do with Flash, therefore you are providing a limited experience to your 100 million iOS users, whatever that number is. You are also making your clients vulnerable to the giants war and browsers war... Google just yanked H.264 from Chrome so how many time do your clients have to encode their videos now, or should I say how many time do you bill them for the work? 2? 3? 4? 5? I lost track myself... Did I say we encode Flash video once and deliver it consistently everywhere but on iPhone and iPad? But I am fine with that, it is not my problem... my problem is Apple trying to kill Flash to impose a corporate agenda.
Ban Flash as much as you want and take responsibility for it when the crap will hit the fan, but back off Flash and leave us use it as much as we want! This year the war is going to be based on merit, not on Steve "big mouth" Jobs trying to abuse market dominance to force HTML5 on everyone. There will be a backslash, people are not stupid, it could have worked if everyone else dropped Adobe but it is actually the exact opposite, the entire industry rallied behind Adobe Flash and now it's payback time!
False statement, all the content of Flash applications is indexed by search engines and it has been the case for years, since Adobe provided them with a special player to do the job:
http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/06/improved-flash-indexing.html
I am not alienating anyone, it is the anti-flash fanatics who are alienating everyone else! Have you read that thread? You noticed not everyone agrees, right?
Hiding under a rock.
And so did Adobe, moved on and doing quite well without Apple. As I said, this year the war is going to be won based on merit, not some CEO's mouth garbage. Here, another example of what happens when two great companies get their engineers to work hard together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhVMrBRwg-U
Now compare that with Apple's divide and rule strategy. Apple could have made Flash great on iDevices but it has another agenda which it will defend even at the cost of its own customers, trying to alienate competition. That is a big NO!
Flash Player 10.2 was widely reviewed and tested with very good feedback but maybe you're right, maybe Adobe made up the whole thing and is not going to take over this year. Let's see.
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Funny thing is, I think Steve's plan sort of backfired. See the kind of attention Flash is getting now that Apple said no? Apple says no, and everybody else says yes! More devices than ever are now running Flash and boasting it as a major feature. It would have never gotten this much attention had Apple just put it in from the beginning, and it probably would have gotten boring eventually. But now that a major contributer to the mobile OS space has said no, it pretty much guarantees that all of the competitors are going to try to one-up this major contributer. End result is faster and more widespread Flash adoption everywhere and a push on Adobe to make it better for mobile devices to prove Apple wrong. Seems they're doing a good job now because Flash is on literally every Android phone nowadays.
Also, Flash running badly on OSX isn't Adobe's fault. Flash runs well on Windows because Microsoft helped Adobe. Flash runs well on Ubuntu because Ubuntu devs and the community helped Adobe. Flash runs well on OpenSUSE because the devs and the community helped Adobe. Flash runs well on Google Android devices because Google helped Adobe and the fans welcomed it with open arms.
Flash runs badly on OSX because Apple decided to be childish and, instead of help Adobe, just decided that they were better off without supporting a major web standard. Their loss. But it's particularly annoying when blind fanboys (which make up a good portion of these forums) say BS about Adobe and how much Flash sucks when it's Apple's fault and when Flash runs excellently for 94% of the market and growing.
Also, Flash running badly on OSX isn't Adobe's fault. Flash runs well on Windows because Microsoft helped Adobe. Flash runs well on Ubuntu because Ubuntu devs and the community helped Adobe. Flash runs well on OpenSUSE because the devs and the community helped Adobe. Flash runs well on Google Android devices because Google helped Adobe and the fans welcomed it with open arms.
Flash runs badly on OSX because Apple decided to be childish and, instead of help Adobe, just decided that they were better off without supporting a major web standard. Their loss. But it's particularly annoying when blind fanboys (which make up a good portion of these forums) say BS about Adobe and how much Flash sucks when it's Apple's fault and when Flash runs excellently for 94% of the market and growing.
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