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It would be crazy to not acknowledge that people on this thread are trying to defend what is in their self interest.
As somebody with no vote on the issue, I like that iOS does not support Flash. I feel that Flash has been a sub-par experience on OS X and Linux for years.

You know what guys, you are right. Google should shut Youtube off from all Apple devices by axing H.264 and we should all leave the iPhone and iPad community try desperately to grow.
 
I've read the thread. I understand that you'd like Flash developers the world over to drop their proverbial tools and come running to Apple's chosen workbench.

It has nothing to do with Apple. The "workbench" is chosen by the standards committee that oversees the web.

Me-me-me is nothing new.

Sure my own motivations are selfish. I want alternatives to Flash to succeed, so I will have greater control of my privacy and the content that I access over the internet. Are you claiming to support Flash for the greater good at the expense of your own well being?

But the concepts of privacy and open standards over proprietary control are definitely not the "me-me-me" position in this argument.

You know what guys, you are right. Google should shut Youtube off from all Apple devices by axing H.264 and we should all leave the iPhone and iPad community try desperately to grow.

Why "should" they do that?
 
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You know what guys, you are right. Google should shut Youtube off from all Apple devices by axing H.264 and we should all leave the iPhone and iPad community try desperately to grow.

I'm not sure what your point is? If a service wants to effectively block a chunk of their market, they are free to do so.
However Google may want to watch out for those anti-trust regulators of yours, since leveraging a dominance in online video hosting to block competition in a different market could be mistaken as anti competitive.
 
It has nothing to do with Apple. The "workbench" is chosen by the standards committee that oversees the web.
The "workbench" includes Flash. Apple chose to exclude it.
Sure my own motivations are selfish. I want alternatives to Flash to succeed, so I will have greater control of my privacy and the content that I access over the internet. Are you claiming to support Flash for the greater good at the expense of your own well being?
I support Flash as an established standard for which dismissal is not justified (at least not yet, anyway).[/quote]
 
It would be crazy to not acknowledge that people on this thread are trying to defend what is in their self interest.
As somebody with no vote on the issue, I like that iOS does not support Flash. I feel that Flash has been a sub-par experience on OS X and Linux for years. To the point that I took a stand and removed it from all of my machines. Yes, this does result in the loss of content, but the content that does work benefits from improved performance and stability. The problem is that removing the app from an OS that had it installed by default does not create sufficient impact to the install base to inspire change.
I understand that it is a self serving motivation, but iOS having no option for Flash directly leads to more content that works w/o it.

You may ask why I wouldn't just prefer a faster more stable Flash Plug-in? Well, I've lost confidence in Adobe. I don't want to take that short term win in fear of Adobe returning to the neglectful treatment of low market share platforms as soon as they get what they want.

To put it another way, I don't want all of my eggs in one basket. If Apple drops the ball, I can switch to a different platform. If Adobe drops the ball (as they have a habit of doing) I have no where to go.


I couldn't agree more. How is having more options a bad thing? Especially for consumers.

All of Flex's arguments are coming from the development side, but at the end of the day the consumer just wants what they have to work.

I've said it over and over...Flash has been beyond awful on OS X. I know I'm not the only one experiencing this...there is thread after thread on this site about it. So I have no confidence they will be any better on iOS. I'm not against adding the option to turn it on/off, but until the consumers stop buying iPhones and iPad because they don't have the option...why would Apple ever make a change?

You know what guys, you are right. Google should shut Youtube off from all Apple devices by axing H.264 and we should all leave the iPhone and iPad community try desperately to grow.

They wouldn't do that; because they understand how important to their own business the iPhone and iPad community are. Adobe has been treating the Mac community as second class citizens for years, all 10% of us...and look where it has gotten them: left behind on iOS. Because it's more than 10%, now they cry foul.
 
Uh Oh...

August 18th, 2010 by Avram Piltch
I’m the last person on earth who wanted to believe Steve Jobs when he told Walt Mossberg at D8 that “Flash has had its day.” I took it as nothing more than showmanship when Jobs shared his thoughts on Flash and wrote that “Flash is closed and proprietary, has major technical drawbacks, and doesn’t support touch based devices.” After spending time playing with Flash Player 10.1 on the new Droid 2, the first Android 2.2 phone to come with the player pre-installed, I’m sad to admit that Steve Jobs was right. Adobe’s offering seems like it’s too little, too late.

At LAPTOP, we’re still testing mobile Flash on a variety of handsets, but the early returns are a mixed bag, with some sites performing really well and other “unoptimized” videos and games causing restless thumb syndrome. When Flash 10.1 for Android is good, it’s great, but when it’s bad, it can make even the harshest Apple critic want to e-mail Steve Jobs an apology video playing in HTML 5.

Update: We’ve done some in-depth testing of Flash Player 10.1 on Android, showing on video what we like and what we don’t. Check it out here.

To see mobile Flash at its best, I downloaded the Abobe Flash showcase for mobile in the Android Market, a directory of sites the company recommends. There I found a link to the Sony Pictures trailer site, and all of the clips played smoothly at full screen. I also found links to a number of TV shows that play in Flash, but not always smoothly. An episode of CSI on CBS.com didn’t cause any serious problems, but it was a bit jerky, particularly at full screen.

Despite the jerkiness, I was excited to be able to watch shows on my phone that previously played only on my PC. That excitement turned to disappointment when I ventured onto several sites that weren’t featured in the showcase.

When I went to ABC.com and tried to play a clip, I waited five minutes while the player said “loading.” During that time, it was nearly impossible to scroll around the page or tap objects on it. Eventually, I scrolled up to see a message that was previously obstructed and said ”Sorry. An error occurred while attempting to load the video. Please try again later.” It gets worse…

When I visited Fox.com and tried to start an episode of House, the program actually played but, even over Wi-Fi, the playback was slideshow-like. Worse still, the player became unresponsive as it ignored my attempts to tap the pause, volume, and slider buttons. At some point during playback, an overlay message warned me that this video was “not optimized for mobile.” I encountered the same message when I tried to play a trailer of the Expendables that was embedded on the movie’s mySpace page. Wasn’t Flash 10.1 supposed to erase the boundaries between mobile and the desktop?



During these Flash lockups, it was nearly impossible to scroll around the screen and most taps were ignored or followed many seconds later. The only way I found to get your phone back to normal when it’s having a Flash meltdown like this is to hit the back button or the home button to get out of the program and even then the phone takes a second to become responsive again.

The difference between the smooth Flash trailers on Sony.com, the slightly jerky episode of CSI, and the system-stalling Flash video on Fox.com is that the smoother ones were optimized specifically for phone playback. But if content providers have to go back and optimize their videos for mobile platforms, one of the key benefits of mobile Flash–backward compatibility with millions of existing videos–is lost. If you’re modifying your videos anyway, why not go the full monty and use an HTML 5 player instead of Flash?

Back in April, Jobs pointed out that mobile Flash had been promised and delayed since the beginning of 2009. “We think it will eventually ship, but we’re glad we didn’t hold our breath,” he wrote. Unfortunately, many Web content providers haven’t been holding their breath either. As we surfed around, we found more and more sites that work with HTML 5 or other non-Flash technologies. The difference between one video format and another is so slight you can’t tell. I visited South Park Studios on my PC and saw that it used Flash to play episodes of the popular show, so I tried it on my phone. I was pleasantly surprised at how well Flash episodes of South Park streamed over 3G, until I realized that the site had detected that I was on my phone and was serving me a specially optimized non-Flash video player (like the YouTube app) instead.

After my mixed experience with video, I was curious to try Flash-based games on our Android phones. When I tried going to famous Flash game sites like Newgrounds or Addicting Games, I found that, as Steve Jobs said, “Flash was designed for PCs using mice, not for touch screens using fingers.” Many of the games I loaded were slow to start and slowed the system, making it difficult to scroll around the page or tap on links. But much worse was that, even when these titles loaded, there was no way to control most of the action. Most games required keyboard or mouse actions I simply could not perform on my phone, even with its QWERTY slider. One shooter wanted me to hit the CTRL key to fire; another asked for the left mouse button.

Finally, I went to Mochi Games, a site that Adobe points to from its Flash showcase, a site that is designed specifically for mobile flash. There, I found an attractive looking zombie game called Blood Red that was made for touch and required me to tap the screen to fire my gun at the oncoming undead. Unfortunately, when I tapped my shots went all over the place and I was dead within seconds. Was it Flash that caused the bullets I shot to go to places I didn’t tap or was it my poor hand-eye coordination? I don’t know, but I was frustrated.



Aside from playing videos and gaming, another purported benefit of Flash is that gives you the real web, without showing empty boxes on your favorite sites. While I love this idea, I actually found that some Flash sites had more difficulty loading on the mobile browser when I had the plug-in enabled. At one point, for a period of about 45 minutes, I was inexplicably unable to load either New York Times home page or LAPTOP’s home page as the Droid 2′s browser got stuck at the point where it was trying to download some Flash ads and a Flash video player.

When we ran our phone battery test, which surfs the Web until the handset’s battery dies, the whole process crashed when the browser reached Veoh.com, a site with an autoplaying Flash video on its home page. Once we disabled Flash, we were able to run the test to completion.

Despite all the problems I experienced with Flash Player 10.1, Adobe deserves credit for bringing the grownup PC experience of Flash to phones. Now, I can browse around the Web and attempt to use Flash sites that were never designed for my phone and see how it goes. Sometimes, I’ll even be pleasantly surprised by how well something translates. The South Park Avatar Creator, which is featured in Adobe’s showcase, is a really neat Flash tool for creating a South Park version of yourself.



Unfortunately, most phone users don’t have the patience for bugs and incompatibilities that hardcore geeks like myself do. Sometime this week, either Verizon or I will get an angry call from my mom when she tries watching a Flash video that locks up the screen or plays a Flash game that won’t respond because it expects mouse clicks rather than finger taps. Both of us will probably advise her to disable the plug-in so we won’t get called again and she won’t see Flash again, which may be her loss, because of all the sites that do work well.

If Adobe can’t make its mobile plug-in work effectively with all Flash content, it needs to at least warn users and give them the option to cancel before it downloads and attempts to play a game or video that isn’t compatible with Flash Player 10.1 for phones. Popping up a cryptic message that says “this video isn’t optimized for mobile” after it starts buffering is not acceptable.

More importantly, Adobe needs to have a better answer to whether or not Flash is still relevant in a world where other technologies have rapidly started displacing it. Based on my early experience with Flash Player 10.1 for mobile, it could soon join the floppy drive in the tech graveyard, something else Steve Jobs helped kill.

Online Editorial Director Avram Piltch oversees the production and infrastructure of LAPTOP’s web site. With a reputation as the staff’s biggest geek, he has also helped develop a number of LAPTOP’s custom tests, including the LAPTOP Battery Test. Catch the Geek’s Geek column here every other week or follow Avram on twitter.

http://blog.laptopmag.com/mobile-flash-fail-weak-android-player-proves-jobs-right


The point being...Yes, we do want the opportunity for the "full web" on our mobile devices and tablets...the question is, why should Adobe be the one that has to deliver it?
 
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I stand corrected; my statement was intended to point out that Flash remains a widely-utilized platform outside of the iOS realm, and that there are those who would like to access it while still able to enjoy other iOS features. Surely an open standards crusader like yourself can appreciate that.

No dismissal is being discussed. Just the promotion of alternatives.
No dismissal... merely abandonment. :rolleyes:
 
I stand corrected; my statement was intended to point out that Flash remains a widely-utilized platform outside of the iOS realm, and that there are those who would like to access it while still able to enjoy other iOS features.

I would guess that almost everyone that has posted in this thread would agree with that statement.

No dismissal... merely abandonment. :rolleyes:

:confused: Okay? Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Promoting alternatives is not the same as abandoning Flash. I think it will be around for a long, long time. I'm just hoping that more content will be available through open standards.
 
Uh Oh...
http://blog.laptopmag.com/mobile-flash-fail-weak-android-player-proves-jobs-right
The point being...Yes, we do want the opportunity for the "full web" on our mobile devices and tablets...the question is, why should Adobe be the one that has to deliver it?
It's important to point out that this article is from last summer and things have improved a bit since then.
Still, despite all of the blustering over Flash on iOS, it's far from ideal on any mobile device. I recently watched a video embedded on engadget side by side on a Galaxy Tab and an iPad. The iPad playback was flawless and the page remained responsive as I read though the comments. However, the Galaxy Tab was a laggy mess with poor framerates. It was bad enough that I effectively could not navigate the page while the video was playing.
I suppose the dual core phones next year will be better, but attacking the problem with more horsepower seems less then elegant.
Flash advocates on this tread are assuming that an Adobe produced Flash plug-in for iOS would be executed flawlessly. They point to the recent improvements in the desktop space as evidence while ignoring that the most similar platform (Android) is still struggling. The Flash debate is academic until Adobe produces a more refined product for ARM based systems.
 
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It's important to point out that this article is from last summer and things have improved a bit since then.
Still, despite all of the blustering over Flash on iOS, it's far from ideal on any mobile device. I recently watched a video embedded on engadget side by side on a Galaxy Tab and an iPad. The iPad playback was flawless and the page remained responsive as I read though the comments. However, the Galaxy Tab was a laggy mess with poor framerates. It was bad enough that I effectively could not navigate the page while the video was playing.
I suppose the dual core phones next year will be better, but attacking the problem with more horsepower seems less then elegant.
Flash advocates on this tread are assuming that an Adobe produced Flash plug-in for iOS would be executed flawlessly. They point to the recent improvements in the desktop space as evidence while ignoring that the most similar platform (Android) is still struggling. The Flash debate is academic until Adobe produces a more refined product for ARM based systems.

Definitely. I was just pointing out that once again, you can talk the talk, but until Adobe can walk the walk, the argument is kind of moot.
 
Apple is treating their customers like idiots.
I want to make the decision about Flash on my own.
An option like click 2 Flash would be great and would not harm the battery life or performance of the phone.
 
This is one long thread...

My thoughts, Flash is nice to have on mobile but it's not without it's problems. I own a T-Mobile myTouch 4G and it's a great Android phone. The problem is once the Flash module is used during web browsing, it pushes the CPU over 1Ghz and eats the battery with no remorse.

Playback is smooth and such, but at a high cost to my phones battery and gets rather warm.

Would I love to see Flash on the iPhone? Not really. The iPad on the other hand, it would be a nice bonus since you have a much larger battery to work with. :rolleyes:
 
Apple is treating their customers like idiots.
I want to make the decision about Flash on my own.
An option like click 2 Flash would be great and would not harm the battery life or performance of the phone.

The best way to let Apple know this is to stop purchasing the phone. The only way is to impact their bottom line.

And so far, it hasn't. Many of those in these types of threads who are complaining continue to purchase the phone. How is Apple supposed to know you're upset? Their bottom line is the bottom line.
 
The best way to let Apple know this is to stop purchasing the phone. The only way is to impact their bottom line.

And so far, it hasn't. Many of those in these types of threads who are complaining continue to purchase the phone. How is Apple supposed to know you're upset? Their bottom line is the bottom line.

To be honest I like the iPhone too much to stop buying it and I will get iPhone 5 as soon as it becomes available.
But I think that it's just wrong what Apple is doing.
They are limiting their customers by not allowing Flash or gambling apps.
For example I love to play online poker and currently I'm not able to do that on the iPhone.
 
Apple is treating their customers like idiots.

Alternatively, Apple has made their decision to not include Flash on iOS devices very clear. They allow customers to make a decision as to whether the price and features that the device does have meet their needs better than the devices offered by other companies.

I want to make the decision about Flash on my own. An option like click 2 Flash would be great and would not harm the battery life or performance of the phone.

Feel free. If you choose to not use Flash, iOS devices are a great option. If you would like the option to turn Flash off and on, there are many other products that offer that feature.
 
After being with so many phone companies and having owned many different types of computers, I can say that I will side with Apple on this because they get it. They understand what works and doesn't. Why do you think its so easy to sync all your apple products together? Try doing that with your Samsung Vibrant phone with Android 2.1, Viewsonic Tablet w/ Android 2.1 and any laptop you wish since there are none that run Android. I trust Apple and will stand by them. Flash is not a priority now and never will be.
 
I don't get why some people are so against having the option of Flash. If you don't want it, don't install it. But some people do want Flash and it's pretty crazy that iOS lacks support.

Before Apple took their little stance, I remember far more people crying "Come on, Adobe! Flash for iPhone! Go go go!"

I enjoy many of Apple's products, but hanging on their every word is pathetic.

An email service I am required to use for work supports only POP, so there is no syncing read/deleted email across devices like with IMAP. Because of this I mostly use their web interface, which for some needless reason is a Flash interface. I could go "YA WELL FLASH IS DUM THEY SHOULDNT USE IT 4 EMAIL" but the fact remains I wouldn't have access to it from an iPhone. Luckily I have an Android device so it is not an issue.
 
Alternatively, Apple has made their decision to not include Flash on iOS devices very clear. They allow customers to make a decision as to whether the price and features that the device does have meet their needs better than the devices offered by other companies.



Feel free. If you choose to not use Flash, iOS devices are a great option. If you would like the option to turn Flash off and on, there are many other products that offer that feature.

The problem is that the iPhone is far superior to any other product on the market except for not allowing Flash, gamling and porn apps.
Actually I recently wanted to buy an Android phone for that reason but after trying out a few of them I changed my mind.
The iPhone is the best phone out there but it could be even better if Apple would allow Flash and the mentioned apps.
 
Look if you want flash, download Skyfire. It's a web browser that converts flash into HTLM5. So there, you got your silly flash. :D
 
... but the fact remains I wouldn't have access to it from an iPhone. Luckily I have an Android device so it is not an issue.
Exactly. Use the phone that meets your needs. For me that is the iPhone precisely because I desire a phone w/o Flash.
 
It sickens me that my school still teaches flash web development classes. They should know more than anyone that flash is a HIGHLY outdated medium that is to be quickly surpassed by HTML 5.
 
To be honest I like the iPhone too much to stop buying it and I will get iPhone 5 as soon as it becomes available.
But I think that it's just wrong what Apple is doing.
They are limiting their customers by not allowing Flash or gambling apps.
For example I love to play online poker and currently I'm not able to do that on the iPhone.

Then you've already MADE the decision about Flash "on your own" as you put it in an earlier post because YOU bought an iPhone knowing it's Flash related limitations.
YOU may not think Apple was justified in eliminating Flash from the iPhone, and there have been very cogent arguments made rather ably by people who have BOTH points of view, but as with most every other piece of technology, choices get made in what features are deal breakers for an individual. If playing online poker was that important to you, you were given a chance to buy a zillion other phones.
It's like saying, "Well, I want a car with 0-60 acceleration in under 4 seconds AND I want it to get 75 MPG." Yeah, well the people in Hell want ice water...
Customers make trade-offs every single day on dozens of products. You simply decide what is more important to YOU in your particular case. And that's what you did.
 
This is really sucking a lot of my time but I rarely give up...

I don't get why some people are so against having the option of Flash. If you don't want it, don't install it.

Because what they want is not just to co-exists with Flash, they want to abuse Apple's authority on mobile market to hijack developers from other application development platform, Flash and Java first since they have been leading the way for RIA for a decade and work beautifully together, only those are a menace to iTunes and AppStore, 10 million developers combined.

Alternatively, Apple has made their decision to not include Flash on iOS devices very clear. They allow customers to make a decision as to whether the price and features that the device does have meet their needs better than the devices offered by other companies.

No they did not, Steve Jobs only started to go public after increasing complains from customers and he would not have bothered with going on and on and on personally on Apple.com if it was not a problem. A lot of the first generation only realized too late what was Flash and whether or not Apple supported it, fanboys know but that is long gone Apple now can't keep its dominance without worldwide mass market.

Now that Steve Jobs made it a national affair people will vote with their wallet, virtually every single none Apple device coming on the market advertises Flash support.

To be honest I like the iPhone too much to stop buying it and I will get iPhone 5 as soon as it becomes available.

Good for you, but it is not about who already own the phone, it is about all those who are going to be buying smartphone for now on.

Apple is treating their customers like idiots.
I want to make the decision about Flash on my own.
An option like click 2 Flash would be great and would not harm the battery life or performance of the phone.

You are caught up in a vendetta and are going to have to either give up on Flash or vote with your wallet.

I recently watched a video embedded on engadget side by side on a Galaxy Tab and an iPad. The iPad playback was flawless and the page remained responsive as I read though the comments. However, the Galaxy Tab was a laggy mess with poor framerates. It was bad enough that I effectively could not navigate the page while the video was playing. I suppose the dual core phones next year will be better, but attacking the problem with more horsepower seems less then elegant.
Flash advocates on this tread are assuming that an Adobe produced Flash plug-in for iOS would be executed flawlessly.

Well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_GXvP2dL8U

Promoting alternatives is not the same as abandoning Flash.

Oh really? Apple is abusing its authority to force developers the opposite way of Flash because it is too good for Apple to compete with. Unfortunately it did not work and now it's payback time, or backfire whichever.


That's your worbench that is not the workbench or millions of developers espcially in the Flash (3 million) and Java (7 million) communities. Really good developer with Java can easily run at $150 an hour right now and the entire wall street is spending fortune just trying to find them or train them. They are engaged in Flash for at least a decade. There is more to Flash than what we are talking about in here.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what your point is? If a service wants to effectively block a chunk of their market, they are free to do so.
However Google may want to watch out for those anti-trust regulators of yours, since leveraging a dominance in online video hosting to block competition in a different market could be mistaken as anti competitive.

You just made my point.
 
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