Really? Your rebuttal about Flash mobile performance is a video of an unreleased product running with an unreleased dual core processor?
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Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash
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Really? Your rebuttal about Flash mobile performance is a video of an unreleased product running with an unreleased dual core processor?
You really should stick to your side of the argument. There really are good reasons to stick with Flash. You don't need to make up crap like a desire to "abuse Apple's authority" and "hijack developers" to make a coherent point. But this is just sad conspiracy theory.
Seriously? Now you are going to fault Apple for not including a version of Flash Player that didn't exist until this year on any significant mobile device on the original iPhone?
And since it's become a "national affair" Apple has not been able to keep up with demand on iPhones, sold 4-5 times more iPads than the estimates of most analysts, and sold over 10 million iPod touches in one quarter. 35 million iOS devices sold in one quarter say that people are voting with their wallet, but the vote isn't going the way that you hope.
Again with "abusing its authority." What abuse? What authority? Not including a browser plugin is not "abuse." It's a choice.
And, of course, you respond completely out of context and without regard to the rest of our conversation. The metaphor of the "workbench" was chosen by the poster that I responded to as a reference to HTML5 and W3C standards.
And I completely agree with you that Flash will be relevant for a decade or more. I'm not one of those people saying "Flash is dead" or trying to kill Flash. I simply think it is important to push for alternatives to Flash (that can coexist with Flash in many cases) to avoid vendor lock in and control of a significant portion of the content on the internet by a single company.
Even if you believe that Adobe has your best interests at heart today and is a super fantastic developer with the best talent in the world, who knows what they will be in 5 years or 10 years or 15 years. Who is to say that if Flash is able to crush the burgeoning HTML5 competition that Adobe won't try to find additional ways to "monetize their investment" in Flash? Or let it rest on its laurels like Microsoft did with IE.
If I were a Flash supporter, I would look at the pace of Flash development since the iPhone debuted and think that Apple's decision to exclude Flash from iOS devices was the best thing to happen to Flash since it was bundled with browsers by default. Adobe has had a fire lit under them.
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I was going to write a big point-for-point response to @flexengineer, but I don't care anymore. Like most consumers, I've lost interest in the debate.
This thread title should be changed to "Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We - the Flash developers - want Flash".
This thread title should be changed to "Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We - the Flash developers - want Flash".
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You almost have me convinced... Only 20 more pages of defending (Cr)(Fl)ash and I'll be convinced!! Keep going!
Look if you want flash, download Skyfire. It's a web browser that converts flash into HTLM5. So there, you got your silly flash.
Skyfire is a scam to take a bit more money out of your pocket into the AppStore. It will only use a complicated mechanism to turn Flash video into a format supported by Apple but by doing so it will turn free video into paid video just to accommodate the lack of Flash because someone has to pay for all the extra bandwidth and server processing needed for this to work.
Their servers blew up only 3 hours after they launched the product, who knows how much they had to spend to keep up, and who pays for it? You do, and it does not allows you to display Flash as people believe, no games, no apps, nothing more than video from Youtube embeds that everyone else gets for free without yest an additional piece of third party software from a small vendor who might collapse anytime.
The only reason this app was approved is because it does not let apps and games through, so it does not compete with iTunes and AppStore which is the real bottom line and motive for Apple's ban of Flash, otherwise it would be uninstalled by default but people who paid $600 to $1000 for a phone should be able to install it and by doing so take their own responsibilities. It is commonly called the freedom of choice.
Yes it is really, what matters to me is where we are going not what is done.
I never said that you're making it up, you are the most painful person to talk to in this entire thread I hope you realize that.
I never said Apple will not do well, I said Apple is going to end up being a margin on the mobile market as Mac is on the computer market. Android will rule in term of market penetration and Flash with it in part thank to Steve Jobs even though that was not his intend.
I documented it very well all over the thread, readers will make up their own minds.
You have to do that fairly, entering in a misinformation campaign claiming Flash is dead and HTML5 is taking over is not fair. You can say whatever you want the timing of events between Adobe's releases, Steve Jobs public statements, ban of Flash and then change of terms and conditions clearly show behaviors where Apple abuses its dominance to force developers on its workbench.
Unfortunately it is backfiring because the opposite is happening, the whole industry rallied behind Adobe Flash and Android. Only thanks to that response will Flash remain dominant for a very long time, otherwise Apple could have killed Flash under false pretenses and you are defending that? We will never be friend man.
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Those 2 statements are almost contradictory. The FTC can only prove Apple is, in your words abusing it's authority, if it is shown that developers have nowhere else to go. Apple would have to have a monopoly on Apps. And with the success of the Android market place, that is going to be extremely hard to prove.
If Android will and does rule the marketplace, then Adobe really has no argument against Apple.
It would only be considered backfiring if Apple couldn't find any App developers to use their "workbench". That is obviously not the case. And who said Apple wanted to kill flash? Not wanting it on their ecosystem does not equal wanting to kill it. Especially when it is an inferior product on said ecosystem.
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I do not think that is correct, based on my knowledge you do not have to have a monopoly to infrige the law, trying to abuse a temporary market dominance to maintain a dominance is enough. The intention to do so is also enough. My guess is that Apple will get away with it but only after it complies with all the requirements from European Commission (which is done, Apple reverse the change of TOS after what EU ended the investigation) and from FTC, we know Apple already approved Google Voice but we are unsure whether the investigation related to Adobe's complain specifically is over or not, all we know is that it became earlier a joint investigation with EU which is pretty serious.
Apple's ambition was to force the use of its workbench at a time when the company had between 99% and 75% of mobile application market between 2009 and 2010. After the change of TOS (which I believe was illegal and for sure was reversed) developers had no choice but to buy a Mac and go the Apple's way to reach the majority of the mobile market.
This is the backslash or what triggered it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CwI227m-hs
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So you admit that today's mobile devices are unable to provide an acceptable Flash experience? Then what have you been going on about? That just proves that Jobs was right to not to allow it in iOS4. Maybe we can start this conversation again next year, but this discussion is meaningless if it's not even possible for Flash to run perfect on today's mobile devices.
If that were true, I would be finding the number of sites which do not work well on my iPhone/iPad to be increasing. But the opposite is happening. A year ago most videos did not work on my devices. Today nearly every site I care about works fine.
A) again market dominance would have to be proven. They will "get away with it" because that is going to be impossible. Google was bailed out of their trouble with the FTC because Apple was proving to be a competitor.
B) that you tube video is funny. When google is exhibit A, you should take it with a grain of salt. Google hates Apple. Of course they are going to participate in a "backlash". The only backlash that would damage Apple would be in their pockets. Check out their Q1 numbers...not so much.
No, I admit that Adobe was late on that segment but I believe Apple abused that instead of helping Adobe bring Flash to mobile which Google and virtually the entire industry but Apple ended up doing.
Adobe is going to show in 2011 what Flash became after only a year of hard work with the engineers at Google, NVidia, HTC, RIM, Motorola etc...
Steve Jobs attack on Flash was opportunistic and motivated by corporate agenda, bringing everyone into a war.
That is because Apple's strategy and false claim on HTML5 worked for a while but that is over, everyone is waking up, Google is getting rid of H.264, this has become a full blown war and consumers are going to get caught in it. Who started it?
You would think that Adobe would have already had it worked out, before demanding its inclusion. The fact is that including Flash in the release of iOS4 last year was not even an option given the state of the ARM code. You can kick and scream in your tin foil hat all you want but Flash was simply not viable when Jobs made his statements. Corporate motivations to block Adobe are irrelevant if the product was not even ready.
BTW - I doubt that any court would rule against Apple for not including beta code with its top selling device.
They are just trying to do what they can to differentiate themselves from Apple. It may work, but Apple still sold 35milion device w/o Flash last quarter.
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
What corporate agenda? Flash stinks on
OS X. Why would he have faith it would work on iOS?
It's not like his distaste of flash had no basis in reality.
What corporate agenda? Flash stinks on
OS X. Why would he have faith it would work on iOS?
It's not like his distaste of flash had no basis in reality.
@flexengineer: Actually, Skyfire works well as a browser, does a competent job at converting most Flash multimedia files, and is not all that expensive (slightly more than the cost of a soda). The only thing it doesn't do is run Flash programs or store information in Flash cookies, so it saves users from marketing nonsense. Oh wait, I guess that's a threat to commercial Flash developers such as yourself.
No it does not, you do not get any flash at all, you get converted video which is only a fraction of what Flash is about. It will become more and more obvious now that Apple's dominance is going down and all the major Flash projects are resuming. You will get more and more blue boxes because more and more web applications and not just video will be developed. I can also block Skyfire, which Hulu did and I do on every single of my apps. They are a scam, they claim they play Flash and they lie by omission.
Oh cool, so if that is all there is to it we will see Flash on Apple devices as soon as it will be proven performing well on mobile devices, right? Because otherwise that would not be the real motive, right? And again, why did Apple change its TOS with clear intent to hurt Adobe's business then? They could have got way with just banning Flash but the change of TOS made the whole thing obvious and they got caught for it. I guess Steve pushed it as far as Apple's legal team would let him and that was one step too far.
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You're confusing two separate issues. Flash as a native application development platform and Flash as a browser plugin.
The TOS issue was an indirect rule that AFAIK was never used to reject an app. The TOS was also quickly revised to removed that restriction. You repeatedly point to this feeling you have that Apple made this change due to legal pressure. You may be right, but since it's not public information, any speculation can not be backed up. You seem to be hung up on this as the core of your argument of Apples nefarious ways, but fail to acknowledge that it has been rectified. You have what you want in the native app space and no body cares about the speculation anymore.
The only current, relevant issue is Flash as a browser Plug in. Frankly any further discussion in this area trying to demonize Apple is nothing but FUD until such time as Adobe can demonstrate a viable plugin for ARM Cortex-A8 architectures (at 600mhz for 3GS compatibility).
Do you realize how fanatic you sound? You're demanding that Apple include code that has been repeatedly show to not perform adequately on existing hardware.
As I said, corporate politics can't even begin until the technology hurdles are met.
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
@Flex: how in the world is Apple's "dominance" going down? Just because you continue to say a falsity does not mean it is true.
They have competition in android which is good for all of us. But to say they are going down just proves that your argument is more emotional than factual. Take your blinders off and look at their Q1 numbers. They exceeded expectations with all of their products, including their line of computers...in which they gained market share because all other companies were down.
I advise you don't turn on the TV or the net on February 10th. I fear your head will explode.
@Flex: how in the world is Apple's "dominance" going down? Just because you continue to say a falsity does not mean it is true.
They have competition in android which is good for all of us. But to say they are going down just proves that your argument is more emotional than factual. Take your blinders off and look at their Q1 numbers. They exceeded expectations with all of their products, including their line of computers...in which they gained market share because all other companies were down.
I advise you don't turn on the TV or the net on February 10th. I fear your head will explode.
Did you read the quote from yourself that I was replying to? "A lot of the first generation only realized too late what was Flash and whether or not Apple supported it." You said that. I didn't make it up.
Don't mean to cause you pain. Not sure how I'm doing that other than disagreeing with you.
On the other hand, you've called me a liar three or four times in this thread, and I've proven you wrong every time with links and quotes. You hardly ever respond directly to what I've said. You've made up my position on multiple occasions. Misquoted me several times.
You continually mis-characterize Apple's motivation with loaded words and bias. And you keep insinuating illegal behavior without making any specific claims or providing any evidence outside of the fact that there was an investigation and changes to Apple's policies.
And I provided facts that show that early indications are that that is not happening. I have no idea what will happen 5 or 10 years down the road. I don't claim to have a crystal ball like you do.
No, you documented an investigation and insinuated that Apple is doing something illegal without ever saying what it is.
Since I specifically said in the paragraph that you quoted that I do not believe either of those things, I have to imagine that you aren't even really trying to understand what I am saying.
Is that your actual claim of abuse? Development terms that Apple changed after 3 or 4 months? Do you really think that is significant to a discussion about the Flash Player? Apple changed their mind in your favor. (Perhaps at the suggestion of the FTC or EU, not sure why that is important.)
Again, you are making up a strawman argument. I never supported an effort to "kill Flash." Apple never attempted to kill Flash. They decided not to support it on iOS devices. They are promoting open standards as alternatives. It's not exactly 90s Microsoft here.
And what "false pretenses" are you even talking about? They were very clear as to why they chose not to support Flash. Just because you don't agree with their reasons, doesn't make them false. Unless, of course, you only consider the reasons made up in forums and blogs and not the actual reasons given by Apple.
It was one motive among many. I assumed you had read Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash." Here's the link if you have not.
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
No need to wonder. If you don't want to click on the link above, here is a quote.
Not helping is not the same as "clear intent to hurt." You can read the actual intent above. Feel free to disagree with any of it. But your disagreement doesn't change the fact that it is a clear statement of Apple's intent.
Caught? As far as you know, someone at the FTC or EU or the corner market voiced some concerns and Apple changed their mind. There was no legal threats that we're aware of.
Look the bottom line is Apple did something wrong otherwise they would have never lost their face reversing the change in a middle of an international join investigation by competition adn anti-trust authorities. You can turn it around as much as you want the bottom line is we won, our applications will get on iPhone and iPad thanks to authorities and no matter how much tricks Apple tried, from change of TOPS the same week Adobe release a tool, or misinformation campaign or PR ********. That does not change what the intent was. You can disagree with me but you can only fake not to understand.
Not helping would have been sticking to the decision to not support Flash, there is no doubt in my mind, in the mind of Adobe's legal team and in the mind of at least the EU Commission Vice President in charge of Competition Policy that Apple pushed it too far with the change of TOS. I already posted all the quotes of what the EU said as far as why they accepted the complain and why they ended the investigation, all it takes is common sense.
When Apple saw that banning Flash will not break the "develop once and deploy everywhere" appeal of Flash after Adobe released technology to port Flash app to native iPhone apps then Apple decided to change TOS to block those technologies as well, the same week Adobe's released them, and refused all applications build with Flash even though submitted in native iPhone format.
Vice President in charge of Competition Policy, Joaquín Almunia, commented right after Apple reversed its change of TOS: "Apple's response to our preliminary investigations shows that the Commission can use the competition rules to achieve swift results on the market with clear benefits for consumers, without the need to open formal proceedings."
That is the point, you got it right, that is what Apple wants, namely nobody able to make money on the browser on iDevices and force everything in iTunes, AppStore and native apps. Well, that is not gonna fly because I have the right to not want to be in business with Apple and Apple has no right to block my apps or content in the browser because of my choice, so they use tricks and lies to achieve the same result.
Now, saying that the only advantage of Flash is DRM shows that you do not have much knowledge of the Flash Platform and its ecosystem today in 2011.
Do you realize the stretch between that quote and what you put in my mouth? Please, for the sake of discussion when you quote me make the offer to grab the line and put it between quotes and I will do the same with you. The problem is way larger than just Flash not on Steve's phones.
Well it is not because you do not believe something that I have to do the same. Supporting Apple's ban on Flash hoping it will twist the arms of developers and benefit the HTML5 at the expense of Flash is not fair, it's an abuse of position and whatever you have to say about it I will keep my position.
Steve said a lot of crap including "Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content", which is a lie because there is content out there that it is impossible to see without Flash so yes Flash is necessary to watch some kind of web content, a pretty wide chunk of content. It's using people ignorance about Flash and assumption that video is all there is to it, in order to push corporate agendas. That's unfair practices to me but we can agree to disagree.
If you look at the numbers for each quarters last year you will clearly see that Apple is slowing down and losing dominance to Android which support Flash 100%. Google and Adobe are gaining dominance while Apple market share is shrinking, even Steve Wozniak (an acquaintance of mine by the way) said so. However the application market on Android is still being organized and in the meantime Apple still has control on a large share of the application and entertainment markets which is different than the devices or OS markets. It is on those two markets that we are currently having a war, application (including web based app being Flash or HTML5) and entertainment (including online streaming of studio content in the browser which is certainly not happening in HTML5 but does happen with Flash).
I never said Apple will not do well but it will not have the dominance required to push this kind of abuse anymore and that is all what matters to me really. The only reason I post here is to share my perspective because way too many people drink Apple's cool-aid.
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I think this whole argument is over-blown, just like antennagate. We don't need any name-calling, trolling, or anything else. Enough already!
I understand your claim. And I understand that the FTC and the EU most likely had a hand in convincing Apple to change their development terms. I stated this specifically in my last post. I've never disagreed with this. I do not know why you keep repeating it.
However, it doesn't contradict in any way the reasons stated in "Thoughts on Flash" as to why Apple did not want to allow tools that encourage cross platform development.
And, more important to the topic on hand, it lasted a 4-5 months, is unrelated to the decision to exclude the Flash Player, and was changed in your favor with little or no impact. Why do you keep bringing it up?
I've never disagreed with this.
And here's where you are making up Apple's motivations even though you have a clear statement as to what they actually were.
And, again, you repeat something that nobody is disagreeing with. My only problem with this topic is that you keep insinuating that it implies illegal behavior on Apple's part.
By "nobody", you mean developers that rely on third party plugins. Anyone can make money using open standards.Of course you have the right to not be in business with Apple. But Apple has every right to build a web browser that does not use third party plugins.
I said that you found fault with Apple for not including Flash on the original iPhone. How is ""A lot of the first generation only realized too late what was Flash and whether or not Apple supported it" not finding fault?
How is it "not fair" and an "abuse of position" for a company to promote its selected tools at the expense of their competitors. It's competition. That's how it's supposed to work.
Glad to know that you are open minded.
Lots of things can seem to be lies if you take them out of context. Jobs was obviously making the claim that any kind of web content can be created using alternative technologies to Flash. He wasn't saying that you can view Flash content without Flash. If you would have posted the whole paragraph, instead of just part of a sentence, that would have been clear.
Again, his statement directly addressed more content than just video. You are rewriting what actually was said in order to justify your "applesucks" mindset.
You mean the numbers that show that they sold 35 million iOS devices last quarter? And couldn't produce enough iPhones to meet demand? You really consider those numbers evidence of slowing down?
Or 52.2% if you want to be accurate.
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
You should have talked to him before using his name, since he says that he was misquoted.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/18/exclusive-woz-misquoted-almost-every-app-that-i-have-is-bette/
Because you have no more proof that Apple was not up to no good than I have proof it was and at the end of the day I have the right to say that I believe the circumstances and context indicate that Apple entered in a vendetta against Flash that failed. I do not believe Steve Jobs letter to Flash was all there is to it, it was only a response to unhappy customers. You do not know Apple's motives more than I do and all each of us can do is to use common sense and make up a mind.
Every time I say I believe, since the change of TOS, that Apple was in a campaign to kill Flash, you keep saying it is not the case when in fact you are talking as much from the top of your head as I do. But you know, I read the thread again and people will be able to see how your positions slightly changed over the course of the discussion to come to something that I would most likely find acceptable but here again not letting people have a choice to install or not the player indicate, to me, that corporate agenda is what really blocks Flash out.
You will never be able to change what I believe and the point I am making unless you bring facts to the table. The facts you brought are not enough to change my mind so just leave me alone claiming what I want and let readers make up their minds.
And that is not true, you can't build with HTML everything you build with Flash and for the part you can build with HTML5 any decent Flex developer can build it in half the time with full implementation of object oriented design patterns, it just means enterprise class solid code, compare to javascript in a web page.
Woz said he was misquoted when the paper claimed he said Android was better but he never denied saying Android will get a bigger market share.
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I enjoy having the full Internet experience on every smartphone & laptop I own, except for my heavily censored iPhone & iPad. All because of one mans fragile ego, and supreme paranoia. That's a fact that will never change, thus flash will be forever feared & banned by Apple. Sometimes they just don't "get it".