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Actually having video on a site w/o Flash "would be nice". Compare a site with embedded video on an iPad and a Galaxy Tab (HTML5 h.264 vs Flash). the iPad provides a far smoother experience. Especially with higher quality videos. It's sad because the Galaxy Tab is capable of rendering these sites better as HTML5 w/o Flash, but the since Flash is available, many sites default to the poorer performing Flash version. Having Flash is currently harming the browsing experience for many site on Android devices. (disabling Flash results in these sites showing no content instead of falling back to HTML5)
I understand that currently HTML5 places a burden on the developer to maintain multiple encodes, but this provides the best experience for mobile end users.
The "So annoying" part is that there is no universal video standard (yet).

totally, unfortunately the sad reality at the moment is that many sites I stumble acorss while on iOS devices have flash and that basically renders those sites useless.

very annoying.

I'm no expert, I just think it's odd that Apple has has singled out Flash. I mean, surely there are plenty of other technoligies, which if not implemented properly, cause poor performance?
 
I guess wanting the choice to see the world's most popular multimedia format in my mobile browser, just as I see it in my desktop browser makes me a "flash nut", right.:rolleyes:

Apple doesn't give two shakes what the W3C decides or defines: if the W3C said tomorrow that Flash is a defacto standard and all browsers should support it, Apple still wouldn't support it (because it's a threat to their ability to skim profit from iOS devices)

What would you say to someone who wants Silverlight support on his iPhone? How about Active-X?

And to answer your question, a Flash nut is someone who consistently blames Apple for not supporting Adobe's plugin while simultaneously denying the technical disadvantages of plugins and ignoring the fact that Flash is not a web standard and is not supported by the W3.
 
And to answer your question, a Flash nut is someone who consistently blames Apple for not supporting Adobe's plugin while simultaneously denying the technical disadvantages of plugins and ignoring the fact that Flash is not a web standard and is not supported by the W3.

I would agree - if Flash is that important to you, there are other products. Unfortunately, there are a lot of web sites that haven't gotten the memo that the world is going to MPEG-4/H.264/HTML5, so it's a slow process. For the ones that do, or at least offer that as an option, it seems the playback is better and more energy efficient, despite coming from the same source file.
 
The war is over guys, there has been 20 million Flash 10.1 enabled smartphones sold (not shipped, sold to end user) in 2010 within a 6 months period (Source: Gartner February 2011) and it is still on track with Adobe's projections (200 million by 2012). It is just a question of time before consumers wake up and ask themselves "wait a second, is not Flash supposed to not work on mobile?".

Same with tablet, Flash is going to be shipped on 50 different tablet models in 2011, all of them should be failures if Apple's claims on Flash are true. Let's see!

Now is when it starts to get fun, when people start voting with their wallet knowing what's up, instead of relying on Steve Jobs pile of crap like fanatics in a cult. Apple tried a big strike (getting ride of Flash to protect AppStore and iTunes) and ended up locking itself in its own corner. Want integrated with a fancy CEO dictating your ways? There it is, now let's see who really wants it. Sales in 2011 are going to speak loudly, I heard there is not much of a line at Verizon...

Did I say Flash Player gets 4.5 out of 5 star rating on Android?

iPhone will be to mobile devices what Macintosh is to computers, Apple lost it then and is losing it again today, as far as the war on Flash is concerned well, it was a nice try, maybe next time. It's not like the iPod phenomenon applies to everything Apple makes.
 
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The war is over guys, there has been 20 million Flash 10.1 enabled smartphones sold (not shipped, sold to end user) in 2010 within a 6 months period (Source: Gartner February 2011) and it is still on track with Adobe's projections (200 million by 2012). It is just a question of time before consumers wake up and ask themselves "wait a second, is not Flash supposed to not work on mobile?".

Same with tablet, Flash is going to be shipped on 50 different tablet models in 2011, all of them should be failures if Apple's claims on Flash are true since most of them made it part of the core of their products. Let's see!

Now is when it starts to get fun, when people start voting with their wallet knowing what's up, instead of relying on Steve Jobs pile of crap like fanatics in a cult. Apple tried a big strike (getting ride of Flash to protect AppStore and iTunes) and ended up locking itself on its own corner. Want integrated with a fancy CEO dictating your ways? There it is, now let's see who really wants it. Sales in 2011 are going to speak loudly, I heard there is not much of a line at Verizon...

Did I say Flash Player gets 4.5 out of 5 star rating on Android?

iPhone will be to mobile devices what Macintosh is to computers, Apple lost it then and is losing it again today, as far as the war on Flash is concerned well, it was a nice try, maybe next time. It's not like the iPod phenomenon applies to everything Apple makes.

You forgot that there are some things that you can't quite measure which makes people want to buy into certain products and that is desirability. Apple has captured that segment of the market through design aswell as ease of use with UI. Stability of its platform and iTunes/App store will keep Apple's mobile device sales strong. Having reached 10 billionth appstore download is an indicator that the market for Apple products remain strong :)

I'm not blind to the fact that lack of flash is not a problem with say the iPad - which was a reason that November when I was thinking about buying a something to replace my ageing iBook, I couldn't quite justify an iPad as it couldn't access some flash specific sites and content like the BBC news clips. I was also thinking about iPad 2 looming in the 1st quarter of 2011 possibly being launched so decided to buy a cheap and cheerful HP G62 laptop as an interim solution.

Having used Apple products most of my student and working life (I'm a graphic designer), the HP is my first PC product and most likely to be the last. Thankfully I only surf with it and do nothing else but after 2 months of use, I have come to the conclusion that Windows 7 remains a very annoying not to mention unstable OS, I hate the constant security scans and iTunes suck on it so I still use my 10 year old iBook for syncing my iPod!!

I plan to purchase a SandyBridge iMac later this year which will relegate the HP laptop as a paperweight. The PC to me is like a Ford Focus which is used for boring tasks whereas a Mac is like premium sports car like a Porsche 911.

I don't have a smartphone but will make the jump in the summer with the iPhone5, to me flash is not going to be a dealbreaker as I just want to use it as a phone, play some games if I'm bored on the train and browse the web for a short time. If I want to access flash content, then I can do that at home.
 
You forgot that there are some things that you can't quite measure which makes people want to buy into certain products and that is desirability. Apple has captured that segment of the market through design aswell as ease of use with UI. Stability of its platform and iTunes/App store will keep Apple's mobile device sales strong. Having reached 10 billionth appstore download is an indicator that the market for Apple products remain strong :)

Apple did accomplish something I never said it did not however how much of that is due to the fact that iPhone was the only decent product on the shelves? How many people who bought an iPhone would have bought an Android (or anything else for that matter) without thinking twice if Android would have hit the market first at a time where everyone was using old school boring cell phones? The desirability factor is not patented by Apple and is far from being enough to maintain market dominance. Sales in 2011 are going to be much more representative of the market landscape and customers position. Let's see how Apple does with 50 tablets and god knows how many smartphones on the shelves, all supporting something Apple does not. iPhone and iPad golden years might very well be behind us as the momentum shifted.

I'm not blind to the fact that lack of flash is not a problem with say the iPad - which was a reason that November when I was thinking about buying a something to replace my ageing iBook, I couldn't quite justify an iPad as it couldn't access some flash specific sites and content like the BBC news clips. I was also thinking about iPad 2 looming in the 1st quarter of 2011 possibly being launched so decided to buy a cheap and cheerful HP G62 laptop as an interim solution.

That is the good old PC vs Mac battle, it has nothing to do with Flash. Flash was not ready for mobile until mid-last year, so whatever happened is not representative of what is going to happen. We can worship our MacBook and iPhone as much as we want it is not going to make them dominate computer or mobile markets for that much, not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow.

Not supporting Flash is a problem no matter what the device is, it's just glorified on tablets but at the end of the day there is stuff out there that I can't see, things I can't do and places I can't visit on any iDevices and no matter what are Apple's justification, it's my device and I should be able to decide for myself, that's what bothers me right now. When I buy a car, the manufacturer does not dare to impose what tires or radio system I am going to use or where and how I am going to buy my music, consumers would probably not cope with it, so why should I? Just because the name is Apple and the mouth is Jobs?. Consumers are going to increasingly feel the same way about Apple's vendetta on Flash.

Windows 7 ... iTunes suck on it.

That is interesting, it is well known that iTunes suck on PC, now is that Apple's fault or IBM's or Adobe's? Cause Apple is quick at calling Flash for not working well on Mac but does not seem very bothered by the piece of crap called iTunes that they deliver to non-macintosh customer despite the fact that they are the majority by far (at least for iPod)... Where is the user experience now? I guess it goes after Apple's money maker... There we go again, it all comes down to iTunes and AppStore, always. All technical and philosophical arguments in the Apple vs Flash war are just BS to make the public swallow the pill, I believe it is all about who is going to control the application market first because whoever that is will also control the web.

I don't have a smartphone but will make the jump in the summer with the iPhone5, to me flash is not going to be a dealbreaker as I just want to use it as a phone, play some games if I'm bored on the train and browse the web for a short time. If I want to access flash content, then I can do that at home.

That is your choice, unfortunately customers are rarely willing to be that accommodating and compromising. Most of them do not worship Apple, they just bought a product they like and are not willing to pull with corporate crap or Jobs megalomania at their cost, just because the product is pretty. If the phone was free, maybe...
 
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It's quite amazing to me that after 587 posts you still don't get it.

If a segment of the market doesn't support it then Flash on mobile is dead in the water. The only reason that Flash is so pervasive on the desktop is because it enjoys 90%+ support. That 90%+ support number just doesn't exist on mobile, and thanks to Apple it never will. You decide what that means; if you're a competent developer I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

Now how about you play nice and stop this nonsense? I think I speak for many people when I say that - regardless of our personal feelings on Flash, or your personal feelings on Apple - it's quite annoying that you keep dragging this old thread back from the dead solely to bitch about Apple and preach about Flash.
 
It's quite amazing to me that after 587 posts you still don't get it.

You mean I disagreed with pretty much everything you said so that means I did not get it, so you post it again. If that makes you happy, fine with me but chicken will grow teeth before you or anyone else makes me shut it, just so you know ;)

If a segment of the market doesn't support it then Flash on mobile is dead in the water.

Have you looked at the numbers recently? It's not 2009 anymore and even though what you are explaining is exactly what Apple motives were (and why they most likely got put together by regulators around the world), unfortunately they failed, big time. The 90% you are talking about is right around the corner. Here some fresh stats for you:

Adobe Flash: 20m phones flip Steve Jobs the bird
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/14/adobe/

Gartner: Android smartphone sales surged 888.8% in 2010
http://www.betanews.com/joewilcox/a...artphone-sales-surged-8888-in-2010/1297309933

Apple's ban on Flash is now insignificant as far as the future of Flash is concerned, as I said the war is over. Now the only remaining question is, will Apple keep screwing its customers by blocking Flash entirely based on philosophical ideas and corporate agenda, or will they bend under either regulators or market pressure? Just sit and watch, it's only going to take a few months to unfold.

it's quite annoying that you keep dragging this old thread back from the dead solely to bitch about Apple and preach about Flash.

Whatever dude, stop posting to ask me to shut up cause you're losing your time (talking about not getting it...). Peace out and go somewhere else if you do not like it, it's simple as that.
 
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The 90% you are talking about is right around the corner. Here some fresh stats for you:

Adobe Flash: 20m phones flip Steve Jobs the bird
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/14/adobe/

Umm... 20 million phones is 7% of the smartphone market in 2010. And about 1% of the total mobile phone market. Are these numbers really that impressive to you?

I don't think 90% is "right around the corner."

or will they bend under either regulators or market pressure?

You still keep posting this crap. What is illegal about Apple choosing not to allow plugins in their browser?
 
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Umm... 20 million phones is 7% of the smartphone market in 2010. And about 1% of the total mobile phone market. Are these numbers really that impressive to you?

20 million phones with Flash Player 10.1 in 6 months which is between 15 and 25% of all smartphones shipped during that period, and 84 million smartphones supported AIR at the end of 2010.

I don't think 90% is "right around the corner."

Apple has 15% of smartphone market share and all manufacturers committed to support Flash. What exactly will refrain Flash from hitting the entire market except Apple's share?

You still keep posting this crap. What is illegal about Apple choosing not to allow plugins in their browser?

It depends the motives and you know it we talked about it over and over. Abusing a temporary market dominance to maintain that dominance is a violation of antitrust laws. The abuse if any is related to the application market, not devices which is the tricky part. Do I have to post the statement from EU Commissioner again?
 
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I guess wanting the choice to see the world's most popular multimedia format in my mobile browser, just as I see it in my desktop browser makes me a "flash nut", right.:rolleyes:

Apple doesn't give two shakes what the W3C decides or defines: if the W3C said tomorrow that Flash is a defacto standard and all browsers should support it, Apple still wouldn't support it (because it's a threat to their ability to skim profit from iOS devices)

and how exactly do they skim profit from iOS by not having flash? I don't know where people get their ideas...APPLE MAKES NO MONEY OFF HTML5. NONE. OTHER VIDEO FORMATS THAT ARE ALSO COMPATIBLE WITH iOS ARE ALSO INDUSTRY STANDARDIZED. YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY APPLE TO USE THEM.

Why everything has to be a conspiracy, I'll never know. Flash just doesn't work well. End of story. It crashes daily on my computer, and I use flashblock so its not even being used all that often to cause a crash. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certain that it has crashed right now. It's a necessary evil for desktops, luckily in the mobile world it isn't necessary at all.
 
and how exactly do they skim profit from iOS by not having flash? I don't know where people get their ideas...APPLE MAKES NO MONEY OFF HTML5. NONE.

With all due respect I think you are missing the point... It's not about Apple making money, it's about Apple refraining others from doing so. With Flash, studios could stream their content with full protection right in the browser for example, entirely by-passing Apple and iTunes. With HTML5 you can't monetize content, so Apple basically amputate the browser to protect iTunes and AppStore. Only Java and Flash would allow true enterprise class commercial application, how surprising that both are banned from iDevices.

Why everything has to be a conspiracy, I'll never know. Flash just doesn't work well. End of story. It crashes daily on my computer, and I use flashblock so its not even being used all that often to cause a crash. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certain that it has crashed right now.

Then don't install it and leave everyone else decide for themselves. Flash currently has 4.5 rating out of 5 on Android, it is going to be increasingly difficult for Apple (and people like you) to keep claiming Flash does not work when everybody around will have a phone in their hands that says otherwise.

It's a necessary evil for desktops, luckily in the mobile world it isn't necessary at all

Where did you learn that Flash is not necessary on mobile? I mean, beside your personal impression or feeling, what do you back this up with?
 
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It depends the motives and you know it we talked about it over and over. Abusing a temporary market dominance to maintain that dominance is a violation of antitrust laws. The abuse if any is related to the application market, not devices which is the tricky part. Do I have to post the statement from EU Commissioner again?

while if they were abusing it, you'd be right, but good luck proving it.

Apple knows it, even if they did do it in order to "abuse their market dominance" (I don't believe they did), there's nothing to back up that claim unless Apple admits it. They can simply say, as they always have, that they feel Flash is not reliable enough for them to use on their device. That's not violating a law
 
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With all due respect I think you are missing the point... It's not about Apple making money, it's about Apple refraining others from doing so. With Flash, studios could stream their content with full protection right in the browser for example, entirely by-passing Apple and iTunes. With HTML5 you can't monetize content, so Apple basically amputate the browser to protect iTunes and AppStore. Only Java and Flash would allow true enterprise class commercial application, how surprising that both are banned from iDevices.

Then don't install it and leave everyone else decide for themselves. Flash currently has 4.5 rating out of 5 on Android, it is going to be increasingly difficult for Apple (and people like you) to keep claiming Flash does not work. It is only going to take a few months, it will be clear for everyone by Spring 2011.

Where did you learn that Flash is not necessary on mobile? I mean, beside your personal impression or feeling, what do you back this up with?

The statement I made was directed at someone who specifically made the statement that Apple did it in order to skim money off iOS. I realize that isn't the point you're trying to make.

That being said, I still have not seen flash act reliably on the desktop, let alone the mobile platform. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it work well...there's tons of great content in the flash format. It just doesn't seem to work well a lot of the time. I'm not sitting here hoping flash fails just because Apple called it evil.

As far as it not being necessary on mobile, I almost never run across a site that needs flash on mobiles. The manufacturers who build their sites in flash have specially designed mobile versions, many major video sites are encoding their videos in HTML5 for mobile platforms, and the sites I run across on the desktop that require flash come from aimless browsing (often stumbleupon), something I just don't do on mobile phones due to the size and speed. True, this is just my personal experience, but the fact that most major sites (and several smaller ones) have mobile versions means flash isn't really a necessary part of browsing on mobile devices.
 
while if they were abusing it, you'd be right, good luck proving it.

You are right, I never said Apple is stupid however they made a big mistake: changing the TOS just to refrain Flash apps from being converted to native iPhone apps, by doing so the same week Adobe released its packager Apple made its true intentions very clear and the regulators did not miss it.

Apple knows it, even if they did do it in order to "abuse their market dominance" (I don't believe they did), there's nothing to back up that claim unless Apple admits it. They can simply say, as they always have, that they feel Flash is not reliable enough for them to use on their device. That's not violating a law.

It's not that easy, it's one thing to fool the public, it is another to fool FTC or EU. It was easy for Apple to provide justification for the ban last year, Flash was just not ready for mobile but now is a different story... If Adobe successfully prove Apple wrong on all technical claims, what is left for Apple to justify the claim?

That being said, I still have not seen flash act reliably on the desktop, let alone the mobile platform.

Can you explain that? Most people do not have any issue with Flash whatsoever except on Mac so saying that Flash acting reliably on the desktop is yet to be seen does not really make any sense. There were and are issues and they have been acknowledged and addressed by Adobe, once again since 10.2 was released it is going to become harder and harder to say Flash does not work because more and more users around will have in their hand a phone that proves otherwise.

As far as it not being necessary on mobile, I almost never run across a site that needs flash on mobiles. The manufacturers who build their sites in flash have specially designed mobile versions, many major video sites are encoding their videos in HTML5 for mobile platforms, and the sites I run across on the desktop that require flash come from aimless browsing (often stumbleupon), something I just don't do on mobile phones due to the size and speed. True, this is just my personal experience, but the fact that most major sites (and several smaller ones) have mobile versions means flash isn't really a necessary part of browsing on mobile devices.

Allow me to copy and paste a few pieces from my blog post on the matter:

Lie #1: Web Video is converted to HTML5

SOME video on the web is ALSO encoded for HTML5 playback today because Apple abused its dominance to manipulate the mobile entertainment, digital content and application markets, by blocking on iPhone and iPad the de-facto standard for online media streaming and Rich Internet Application (RIA), also know as the “Adobe Flash Player”. Engineers from Youtube and Vimeo explained how Apple dictated the implementation of HTML5.

* HTML5 implementation has tripled their engineering time & cost.

“Apple’s stance also created significantly more work for sites like YouTube and Vimeo. In order to meet their users’ playback needs, their coding work could easily be doubled or tripled if they want to appear on Apple’s many mobile devices. And they absolutely do want to be on them. ‘You want your users to be able to playback video on any device they’re using, so we do the extra coding because it’s important to be on the iPad and the iPhone,’ said Vimeo g.m. Dae Mellencamp.”
Karen Idelson, Variety, November 24, 2010.

* HTML5 was implemented in addition to Flash and not instead.

“Google has made it quite clear that despite its general advocacy of open standards, it believes there’s still quite a bit of life left in Flash. In fact, it’s even baking it into its Chrome browser. Today, YouTube software engineer John Harding took to the site’s official blog. The gist of it: while HTML5 is great, it can’t do everything YouTube (or most mainstream video sites) need.”
Jason Kincais, TechCrunch, June 29, 2010.

* HTML5 is no replacement for Flash.

“While HTML5’s video support enables us to bring most of the content and features of YouTube to computers and other devices that don’t support Flash Player, it does not yet meet all of our needs. Today, Adobe Flash provides the best platform for YouTube’s video distribution requirements, which is why our primary video player is built with it.”
John Harding, Software Engineer, Youtube, June 29, 2010.


Lie #2: HTML5 Beats Adobe Flash.

HTML5 is an embryo markup language (also called a ‘draft’) that is being compared with a fully mature, full feature object oriented programming language called ActionScript, used to build enterprise class Flash apps.

Thinking that HTML5 with javascript (another developer’s nightmare itself) can do everything a serious programming language does is delusional, it would be like saying I can drive to the moon with my car, it does not matter how good the car is or how motivated I am, it’s just not going to happen.

Never will HTML5 get even close to Flash and the reasons are:

* HTML5 is a draft created in 2008 that is not expected to become a ‘Candidate Recommendation’ before 2012 and is not expected to become an actual W3C ‘Recommendation’ before 2022 or later (Source: Wikipedia).
* HTML5 is a specification that requires years of efforts before new features and improvments can be fully deployed.
* HTML5 is not a programming language nor does it permit the protection and / or monetization of digital content without depending on another proprietary system such as iOS or Playstation.
* HTML5 is not 100% consistent accross browser therefore it can be visually rendered differently by Safari, Internet Explorer, Chrome, Firefox or Opera on Windows or Mac or any combination of those. Some website might have parts or features that work on some browsers and not others, or render differently in each with additional discrepency depending on the operating system used (PC, Mac, Linux).

Meanwhile, Flash works the same everywhere and Adobe has recently proven its ability to roll-out breakthrough and new features in a matter of months if not weeks.

For instance, even though Apple refused to provide Adobe with a pre-release of the new MacBook Air in order to optimize Flash for it (screwing its own customers instead by removing the player), Adobe still cut the grass under Jobs feet by delivering a 10 fold performance improvment for Flash Player on all browsers, platforms and operating systems including the underpowered Apple MacBook AIR just weeks after its public release.
 
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

No Flash!

For me too.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

No Flash!

For me too.
 
It's not that easy, it's one thing to fool the public, it is another to fool FTC or EU. It was easy for Apple to provide justification for the ban last year, Flash was just not ready for mobile but now is a different story... If Adobe successfully prove Apple wrong on all technical claims, what is left for Apple to justify the claim?

So they proved it can work it on Android - but then, it was working "okay" on Windows for a long time yet Apple ended up packaging it with their new computers because it was a lot worse (until recently, from what I understand) on MacOS.

So where have they proved Apple wrong on all claims (in regards to an iOS compatible version)?
 
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Whatever dude, stop posting to ask me to shut up cause you're losing your time (talking about not getting it...). Peace out and go somewhere else if you do not like it, it's simple as that.

Last time I checked this was an Apple forum, which means I am more entitled to be here than you are because I actually contribute to Apple-related discussions (as opposed to bait and troll threads about the determents of Flash). For a professional developer you're sure acting amateurish.

With all due respect I think you are missing the point... It's not about Apple making money, it's about Apple refraining others from doing so. With Flash, studios could stream their content with full protection right in the browser for example, entirely by-passing Apple and iTunes. With HTML5 you can't monetize content, so Apple basically amputate the browser to protect iTunes and AppStore. Only Java and Flash would allow true enterprise class commercial application, how surprising that both are banned from iDevices.

I'll tell you what. The day that Android runs Xcode is the day I'll vouch for Flash on iPhone.
 
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Last time I checked this was an Apple forum, which means I am more entitled to be here than you are because I actually contribute to Apple-related discussions (as opposed to bait and troll threads about the determents of Flash). For a professional developer you're sure acting amateurish.

... Technically it's an Apple-related forum, unless Apple bought MacRumors since I last checked. /nitpicknazi

Not that the above nit pick really invalidates any of the real point of your post.
 
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