Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[flexengineer]

It's in this thread somewhere (like I said I have read everything) but I am not going to go ALL the way back through it again.

You should read again, or you might want to just google "html5 vs flash". Saying one can do with HTML5 and JavaScript everything the Flash platform allowed is ridiculous. HTML5 will not make Flash disappear, not without Apple's PR tricks and they failed. 2011 is going to be tough for Apple because people will remember its position on Flash and nothing can be done against all the products coming with Flash at their center.

The number of websites that actually replaced Flash with HTML5 is insignificant and those that are in HTML5 and have never been in Flash should probably be that way. However, as the "develop once and deploy everywhere" still applies you will see more and more limited version of Flash apps on the iPhone and iPad with full version for everyone else, not the other way around (where application would be developed for iPhone first as Apple hoped for). The large majorities of developers building for the PlayBook as we speak are using Flash packaged with AIR. The adoption of the Flash mobile technologies is beyond expectation, now is time to see what they got.

Personally I have seen first hand a lot of companies explore HTML5 including VMware, CNN, BBC, Cocodot, Tivo to consider it unfit for a lot of Flash use cases, but I have very rarely seen a company replacing Flash with HTML5 all together, it's all Apple's buzz. HTML5 is nothing more than a better HTML and the fact that nobody is there to keep its direction straight makes it subject of all kind of non sense. HTML5 is also extremely slow to progress or evolve and as any other version of HTML can be a serious drawback.

What takes Adobe a few months to implement in the Flash standard can literally take years to be implemented in the HTML5 recommendation. Saying it will kill Flash is silly, it will always be behind it is almost mathematical and developers will not wait for HTML5 to do what they can do with Flash today. They will simply coexist and I believe Flash will reach on mobile the kind of penetration it has with computer by 2012 (90%+).

For example, I want you to define what an "enterprise class programming language" means, and why JavaScript is, to your mind, merely "some script on a web page".

Because that is merely what JavaScript is, pieces of script you put in the source of a web page right where the HTML and CSS is, breaking the most fundamental rule for solid program (separation of the view and the code, without even mentioning separation of view and model).

"Since the arrival of the Flash Player 9 alpha (in 2006) a newer version of ActionScript has been released, ActionScript 3.0. ActionScript 3.0 is an object oriented programming language allowing far more control and code re-usability when building complex Flash applications. This version of the language is intended to be compiled and run on a version of the ActionScript Virtual Machine that has been itself completely re-written from the ground up (dubbed AVM2).[2] Because of this, code written in ActionScript 3.0 is generally targeted for Flash Player 9 and higher and will not work in previous versions. At the same time, ActionScript 3.0 executes up to 10 times faster than legacy ActionScript code." (Wikipedia)

I did a demo at Disney to shut the mouth of a Linux fanatic Flash hater and was able to prove that Flex with AS3 will run complex charts faster than Google javascript graphs and all charts for the social marketing division of the company have been visualized internally and externally using Flash since.

All of the above is, in part, why AS is particularly fit for enterprise class applications which are large, complex application with scalability requirements. Application that JavaScript could not deliver even in the mind of the wildest and most talented coder.

The fact that the most-used services on the web all opt for JavaScript over Flash for nearly every aspect of their service (save video, for the time being) would seem to indicate that JavaScript is more powerful than merely "some script on a webpage" as you would have us believe.

The fact that most website on internet use straight old HTML and table to layout their designs does not mean they are doing the right thing or offering anything anything even remotely close to a rich and engaging experience, the same applies to JavaScript, it's easy and lazy, I honestly do not know any serious engineer who likes it.

I do not know what you are talking about when saying "save video" specifically but I know one company called Facebook that use regular method to upload one photo but Flash to upload multiple images, I am sure they know what they are doing. There are many, many things JavaScript can't do and for those things there will always be Flash.

The "deploy once, deploy everywhere" paradigm has transitioned from Flash to HTML5. Why? Because while every browser does not support Flash (thanks to Apple), as of Microsoft's IE9 every browser supports HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript.

That is false, all browsers support Flash, Apple only banned it from its mobile devices, Safari supports Flash everywhere else because Flash is part of the web and has a higher penetration that any piece of software in the world as far as all computers are concerned and is about to reach that kind of penetration on mobile, do not even try, pick something else.

I wish we could say the same about video in HTML5, you heard about a couple of major players not supporting H.264 any longer, did not you?

And I will stop here because you gave me a headache really, your post is truly a bunch of crap.

 

[BaldiMac]

You should read again, or you might want to just google "html5 vs flash". Saying one can do with HTML5 and javascript everything the Flash platform allowed is ridiculous. HTML5 will not make Flash disappear, not without Apple's PR tricks and they failed. 2011 is going to be tough for Apple because people remember its position on Flash and there is nothing you can do against all the products coming with Flash at their center. More and more people will laugh at you when you say Flash is dead or HTML5 has taken over. The number of websites that actually replaced Flash with HTML5 is insignificant and those that are in HTML5 and never been in Flash probably should have never been in Flash. However, as the "develop once and deploy everywhere" applies you will see more and more limited version of Flash apps on the iPhone and iPad with full version for everyone else, not the other way around. The large majorities of developers building for the PlayBook as we speak are using Flash packaged with AIR. The adoption of the Flash mobile technologies is beyond expectation. Now it's time to see what they got. Personally I have seen a lot of companies explore HTML5 like VMware, CNN, BBC to consider it unfit for most Flash use cases, but very rarely seen a company replacing Flash with HTML5, it's all Apple's buzz. HTML5 is nothing more than a better HTML and the fact that nobody is there to keep its direction straight makes it subject of all kind of non sense and extremely slow to progress. What takes Adobe a few months to implement in Flash will take years to implement in HTML5. Saying it will kill Flash is silly, it will always be behind it is almost mathematical and developers will not wait for HTML5 to do what they can do with Flash today. They will simply coexist and I believe Flash will reach on mobile the kind of penetration it has with computer by 2012 (90%+).

While I don't agree with Eso's post, your prediction isn't based on anything but your hope for the future. With Apple selling a conservative estimate of 150-200 million iOS devices in 2011, it would require 2-3 billion Flash enabled mobile devices to reduce their install base to under 10% by 2012. Let alone approach the 98%+ penetration rate on traditional PCs.

I did a demo at Disney to shut the mouth of a Linux fanatic Flash hater

I thought people only hate Flash because of Steve Jobs. Why is he letting this guy use Linux?

I do not know what you are talking about when saying "save video" specifically but I know one company called Facebook that use regular method to upload one photo but Flash to upload multiple images, I am sure they know what they are doing. There are many, many things javascript can't do and for those things there will always be Flash.

Poor example. You can create a batch uploader with html5. Gmail uses it with drag and drop.

That is false, all browsers support Flash, Apple only banned it from its mobile devices, Safari supports Flash everywhere else because Flash is part of the web and has a higher penetration that any piece of software in the world as far as all computers are concerned and is about to reach that kind of penetration on mobile, do not even try, pick something else.

How is it any more a part of the web than a .doc file? Serious question.

 

[Eso]

You should read again, or you might want to just google "html5 vs flash". Saying one can do with HTML5 and javascript everything the Flash platform allowed is ridiculous. HTML5 will not make Flash disappear, not without Apple's PR tricks and they failed. 2011 is going to be tough for Apple because people remember its position on Flash and there is nothing you can do against all the products coming with Flash at their center. More and more people will laugh at you when you say Flash is dead or HTML5 has taken over. The number of websites that actually replaced Flash with HTML5 is insignificant and those that are in HTML5 and never been in Flash probably should have never been in Flash. However, as the "develop once and deploy everywhere" applies you will see more and more limited version of Flash apps on the iPhone and iPad with full version for everyone else, not the other way around. The large majorities of developers building for the PlayBook as we speak are using Flash packaged with AIR. The adoption of the Flash mobile technologies is beyond expectation. Now it's time to see what they got. Personally I have seen a lot of companies explore HTML5 like VMware, CNN, BBC to consider it unfit for most Flash use cases, but very rarely seen a company replacing Flash with HTML5, it's all Apple's buzz. HTML5 is nothing more than a better HTML and the fact that nobody is there to keep its direction straight makes it subject of all kind of non sense and extremely slow to progress. What takes Adobe a few months to implement in Flash will take years to implement in HTML5. Saying it will kill Flash is silly, it will always be behind it is almost mathematical and developers will not wait for HTML5 to do what they can do with Flash today. They will simply coexist and I believe Flash will reach on mobile the kind of penetration it has with computer by 2012 (90%+).

Searching for "html v. flash" is pointless. But here's a fun exercise for you. Search for:

"Full HTML5 support" - results: 8.2 million websites

"full adobe flash browser plugin support" - results: 25.4 million websites

Looks pretty good for flash, right? Not until you try:

"full adobe flash browser plugin support without crashing or freezing your computer" - results: 162,000 websites

Proof that HTML5 is more stable than than flash.

The RIM playbook is pretty much directly copied from WebOS. That means it uses, you guessed it, HTML and CSS/Javascript, NOT flash.

Also, I think you over estimate the number of websites that still use flash and haven't implemented HTML5. Have you tried them on an iOS device? Go to Youtube on a desktop and what do you need? Flash. Yet when you go to it on the iPhone it still works. Why? Because you can do the exact same thing with HTML5 that you can do with flash. They are basically identical, fully standardized and accepted technologies, except one is proprietary and the other is not. The only reason flash still exists is because some people paid a lot of money in school to learn how to use the expensive software that creates flash content.

 

[milani]

@flex:

I have asked you time and again to address my posts properly. Making arbitrary and irrelevant counter-points based on excerpts from my text is unacceptable.

You are trying to obscure the fundamental arguments being presented to you. Your failure to counter these points leads me to conclude that you concede on these points; that you have no intelligible rebuttal to speak of does not surprise me.

In any event, I can no longer entertain you.

I wish you all the best. And, for your sake, I hope that you are still able to find development work as the web transitions away from proprietary architectures in favor of web standards.

 

[Avalontor]

Searching for "html v. flash" is pointless. But here's a fun exercise for you. Search for:

"Full HTML5 support" - results: 8.2 million websites

"full adobe flash browser plugin support" - results: 25.4 million websites

Looks pretty good for flash, right? Not until you try:

"full adobe flash browser plugin support without crashing or freezing your computer" - results: 162,000 websites

Proof that HTML5 is more stable than than flash.

The RIM playbook is pretty much directly copied from WebOS. That means it uses, you guessed it, HTML and CSS/Javascript, NOT flash.

Also, I think you over estimate the number of websites that still use flash and haven't implemented HTML5. Have you tried them on an iOS device? Go to Youtube on a desktop and what do you need? Flash. Yet when you go to it on the iPhone it still works. Why? Because you can do the exact same thing with HTML5 that you can do with flash. They are basically identical, fully standardized and accepted technologies, except one is proprietary and the other is not. The only reason flash still exists is because some people paid a lot of money in school to learn how to use the expensive software that creates flash content.

this is the biggest pile of BS on this site. or not.

 

[BaldiMac]

this is the biggest pile of BS on this site.

Or (I'm hoping) an attempt at humor (or trolling). I thought that was pretty obvious from his first post. Pretty funny that people actually agreed with him.

 

[Avalontor]

Or (I'm hoping) an attempt at humor (or trolling). I thought that was pretty obvious from his first post. Pretty funny that people actually agreed with him.

ahhhh, thanks. i read the other posts now and i hope you're right.

 

[flexengineer]

@flex:I have asked you time and again to address my posts properly. Making arbitrary and irrelevant counter-points based on excerpts from my text is unacceptable.

That was really not intentional, I probably lost track, would you be so kind as to tell me briefly what your arguments are or what do you want me to answer to exactly? Let's make a clear distinction between our believes and the facts.

While I don't agree with Eso's post, your prediction isn't based on anything but your hope for the future. With Apple selling a conservative estimate of 150-200 million iOS devices in 2011, it would require 2-3 billion Flash enabled mobile devices to reduce their install base to under 10% by 2012. Let alone approach the 98%+ penetration rate on traditional PCs.

Google has been activating 300,000 units a day, around November 2010 Android became world's second favorite mobile operating system second to Symbian and more recently became #1 in the US market. There have been false claims that Apple retaken lead recently, those claims were based on sales result combining iPhone, iPad and iPod.

iPad is still #1 of course as serious competitors are not released yet, but Android is powering so many devices across the board that becoming the dominant OS on all devices is just a question of time.

I thought people only hate Flash because of Steve Jobs. Why is he letting this guy use Linux?

That is not true, maybe for the mass public but there have always been opinions about Flash, Linux users tend to not like Flash and developers who are not qualified on Flash tend to not like it neither, go figure

Now, who is letting who use Linux? I dis not follow you.

Poor example. You can create a batch uploader with html5. Gmail uses it with drag and drop.

You should contact Facebook's engineering team and explain to them what they are missing, or most likely they will explain to you why they don't use it. Cross browser compatibility nightmare might be one reason.

How is it any more a part of the web than a .doc file? Serious question.

Flash is way more significant than .doc, nothing allows to develop rich complex application as efficiently and rapidly as Flex for one:
http://flex.org/showcase

Searching for "html v. flash" is pointless.

No it is not pointless and certainely not as much as your suggestions, when you use Google for research you might want to not imply the answer in your query otherwise all you will be doing is cerebral masturbation.

May I ask how old you are?

 

[BaldiMac]

Google has been activating 300,000 units a day, around November 2010 Android became world's second favorite mobile operating system second to Symbian and more recently became #1 in the US market. There have been false claims that Apple retaken lead recently, those claims were based on sales result combining iPhone, iPad and iPod.

First, how does this address your absurd claim that Flash will reach 90%+ penetration on mobile devices by 2012. It's currently on only 50% of Android devices!

Second, why wouldn't you include iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch in the "mobile operating system" market? They are all mobile devices running iOS.

Third, 300,000 per day is less than 35 million per quarter.

That is not true, maybe for the mass public but there have always been opinions about Flash, Linux tend to not like Flash and developers who are not qualified on Flash tend to not like it neither, go figure

Weird. Mac users tend to not like Flash. Linux users tend to not like Flash. What's the point in cross platform if only the primary platform tends to be happy?

Flash is way more significant than .doc, nothing allows to develop rich complex application as efficiently and rapidly as Flex for one:
http://flex.org/showcase

You neglected to answer the question. How is Flash any more "a part of the web" than a .doc file?

 

[flexengineer]

First, how does this address your absurd claim that Flash will reach 90%+ penetration on mobile devices by 2012. It's currently on only 50% of Android devices!

It's on all new devices recently and about to be released, that number of new devices is growing vertically and horizontally, we can assume Flash penetration to be exponential.

Second, why wouldn't you include iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch in the "mobile operating system" market? They are all mobile devices running iOS.

Because we are talking about competition with Google Android and Adobe Flash, which only cover smart-phones and tablets.

Third, 300,000 per day is less than 35 million per quarter.

That was in November 2010, when Apple was at 200,000 I think. Android has shown exponential growth since its introduction on the market, as more and more devices are released it's number of activations per day will grow higher and faster.

Weird. Mac users tend to not like Flash. Linux users tend to not like Flash. What's the point in cross platform if only the primary platform tends to be happy?

I hear you and I do not ask you to trust Adobe but I do. I believe they heard it and they are working hard to fix it, we will see rapidly during the course of 2011 how it translates in our hands.

You neglected to answer the question. How is Flash any more "a part of the web" than a .doc file?

I suggested a link to a showcase of applications and websites to show the diversity of content and interfaces created with Flash. There is a decade of content out there that is part of the web experience and was built with Flash. More recently with the release of ActionScript 3, Flex and AIR, Flash has become a solution of choice for both rich internet applications and native mobile applications. It is a powerful technology that needed optimization and serious re-consideration to be mobile ready but I believe Adobe's engineers, with the support of engineers from virtually the whole industry but Apple, accomplished serious progress and innovation which will reach the public this year.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's on all new devices recently and about to be released,

No, it's not. Check out AT&T or Verizon. Both are selling devices with Android 2.1 or earlier.

that number of new devices is growing vertically and horizontally, we can assume Flash penetration to be exponential.

What in the world?!? We have seen growth, so we can assume exponential penetration? That's some crazy logic.

Because we are talking about competition with Google Android and Adobe Flash, which only cover smart-phones and tablets.

No, we were talking about your claim that Flash will "reach on mobile the kind of penetration it has with computer by 2012 (90%+)."

That was in November 2010, when Apple was at 200,000 I think. Android has shown exponential growth since its introduction on the market, as more and more devices are released it's number of activations per day will grow higher and faster.

And November 2010 is right in the middle of the fourth quarter when Apple sold 35 million iOS devices. The numbers do not support your claim. It's silly to pretend that they do.

I suggested a link to a showcase of applications and websites to show the diversity of content and interfaces created with Flash. There is a decade of content out there that is part of the web experience and was built with Flash. More recently with the release of ActionScript 3, Flex and AIR, Flash has become a solution of choice for both rich internet applications and native mobile applications. It is a powerful technology that needed optimization and serious re-consideration to be mobile ready but I believe Adobe's engineers, with the support of engineers from virtually the whole industry but Apple, accomplished serious progress and innovation which will reach the public this year.

What does a showcase of Flash content have to do with my question? I didn't ask what you can do with Flash.

Flash is a content type on the web. Just like a PDF or a Word document. Why is it a "part of the web" any more than these other content types? It's really a simple question that may have a simple answer that justifies your claim. I'd just like to know what it is.

 

[CylonGlitch]

No, we were talking about your claim that Flash will "reach on mobile the kind of penetration it has with computer by 2012 (90%+)."

Stop talking logic, there is none in this discussion. If you nail him down to something, proving him wrong, he'll call you a liar like he did others. He's a troll and nothing more. Not willing to bump this thread any longer; it's time to let it die, it stands on it's own.

 

[Reddkryten]

Flash is a content type on the web. Just like a PDF or a Word document. Why is it a "part of the web" any more than these other content types? It's really a simple question that may have a simple answer that justifies your claim. I'd just like to know what it is.

To be fair, the iPad can read PDF and Word files. If the iPad can't natively read the file type, there is usually a third party app that can, for example the iPad can't open zip files, however the app Filer can.

 

[dgree03]

what I find funny is people champing Apple for choosing an open standard. Yet iOS is by all accounts a closed environment. Apple uses proprietary connectors and such...

But "Oh no, We(Apple) cannot support that closed standard"


Oh the Irony....

 

[milani]

what I find funny is people champing Apple for choosing an open standard. Yet iOS is by all accounts a closed environment. Apple uses proprietary connectors and such...

But "Oh no, We(Apple) cannot support that closed standard"


Oh the Irony....

There isn't anything ironic about it at all. You're confusing a proprietary closed-source operating system with the open web. Apple has been a huge contributor to the open web (WebKit, for instance). They believe, from a philosophical standpoint, that the web should be built on open standards, hence not supporting proprietary plugins like Flash, which violate the principles of the open web. If you take a minute to undertand the issues you'll see there is nothing ironic about Apple's dual stance on proprietary and closed-source and open standards and open-source.

 

[BaldiMac]

what I find funny is people champing Apple for choosing an open standard.

Hilarious!

Yet iOS is by all accounts a closed environment.

Well, except for the open standards that they support. See your previous sentence for the contradiction in your argument.

Apple uses proprietary connectors and such...

As if it's all or nothing in this world.

But "Oh no, We(Apple) cannot support that closed standard"


Oh the Irony....

I suppose it's as ironic as running Firefox on Windows. Who would do that?

 

[milani]

When Smith asked if it was fair to say that Facebook would re-write or re-work things to make everything more standardized around technologies like HTML5, Taylor said, “At a high level, that’s the direction we’re going.”

Interesting...

It seems like all of the big players are migrating to standardized technologies. This is great news for those of us that support open standards.

http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/25/facebook-2011/

 

[flexengineer]

Rumor: Flash on iPad 2

I am hearing more and more rumors from trusted sources that iPad 2 will support Adobe Flash, what do you think of that possibility?

 

[Reddkryten]

I'd be very happy if that was true...however I wouldn't bet any money on it.

 

[JediZenMaster]

I hate flash it is so yesterday. I hope apple never ever allows it on any of the iOS devices. If you want flash go get an android phone or tablet.

 

[VulchR]

I am hearing more and more rumors from trusted sources that iPad 2 will support Adobe Flash, what do you think of that possibility?

That'd be fine by me, as long as the implementation would allow the easy nuking of Flash LSO's. Still, I frankly doubt the rumors you are hearing, but I suppose we'll see...

 

[Shanebenn]

Have it installable by Cydia from Adobe itself officially, if you want it install it and if you don't want it you don't have to have it. And Apple cant stop it in a hurry.

 

[darngooddesign]

Flash works fine on my DroidX. I have it set to off unless I click on a Flash element so just having it installed doesn't affect my battery life at all. Nor do I have to look at unwanted Flash ads.

 

[flexengineer]

Flash works fine on my DroidX. I have it set to off unless I click on a Flash element so just having it installed doesn't affect my battery life at all. Nor do I have to look at unwanted Flash ads.

The way it should be.

Have it installable by Cydia from Adobe itself officially, if you want it install it and if you don't want it you don't have to have it. And Apple cant stop it in a hurry.

You had to jailbreak it though, did not you?

 

[Moyank24]

And yes, I did hear the rumor and I will revive that thread for as long as I want.

He's right. What's the point? Everyone has made their arguments. You haven't changed anyone's mind and nobody has changed yours.

Revive the thread when the Apple announces the iPad supports Flash. Not that you randomly heard about it. Continuing the discussion wil only prove you just want to argue.