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Have you tried to uninstall all Flash Players, uninstall Chrome, make sure to install the latest version of Chrome (beta channel is pretty reliable, I never had problems with it and it saves me some bug headaches, the developer channel might be a bit pushy but I did enjoy it, it was super Chrome being super fast for the first time)?

If I was anti Apple I would not work on a MacBook and carry an iPhone, even though I feel betrayed and will switch to Android as soon as a reliable alternative shows up (I want a solid phone, not a piece of plastic). The MacBook Air is underpowered, it's very small and we wonder where the power comes from or where the battery is, I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge, did I miss something?

I never heard of a platform refraining me from installing a software that we know works on that platform. Give me examples of a company deciding out of the blue that they will refrain, not just remove from factory default, but refrain a competitive technology to be installed?

Without upgrade or new contract it is not unusual at all to end up with a $1000 bill once you get the accessories and MobileMe and the extra care and the case and you know, all the stuff. If you end up paying only $200 or $300 does not mean the true value is $1000 because if it was not $1000 then maybe it would be free, like most phones are and like most smart phones will become within the next 2 years.

Thanks for the tip. I'll give that a try...hopefully it irons out my problems

The MacBook air, considering its size, has plenty of RAM, a powerful enough processor for what it is (this isn't supposed to be a computer for creating content, other than documents that is) and pretty solid screen resolution. Its an ultraportable...it isn't meant to have power like laptops or desktops. It essentially is to compete with netbooks (theres an 11") and in that category, it (for the most part) reigns supreme. If you compare it to a desktop or laptop, the sure, its underpowered

There's not really a valid comparison since mobile is fairly new. That being said, although they aren't totally against it (and I believe working to implement it), Microsoft didn't include Flash or the option for it on WP7. They are making sure it works well, just like apple (claims) to be doing, but they seem optimistic that they can accomplish that soon. Apple does not feel the same way.

Including accessories and mobileme and apple care in the price of the phone isn't a valid way to justify an argument. Those are options. The phone has a value of $600 or $700. Accessories are options.

I don't know if theres an issue with multi quote or if you're deliberately changing peoples names (I doubt it and I hope not), but these two quotes from your last post are attributed to me, even though I never said them. They came from someone else.

"And it's amazing that you think that you have the right to force them to have plugin support in their browser simply because you want it. Talk about abusing someone rights!"

and

"And the Flash Player hardly competes with the App Store considering most Flash content is free."
 
It might not be that easy, they are dealing with regulators not the court and if they claim that the batter life is the justification then regulators might ask them to prove that 1/ Flash is such a drain on the battery, 2/ Apple made every effort to support Adobe in order to insure a good experience on iDevices, 3/ that the claim still holds true today. And there is also the leverage FTC and EU has in term of public image, a formal full blown investigation could hurt the stock and would not be good at all for Apple.

Apple doesn't have to prove anything. And they certainly don't have to make "every effort to support Adobe." Where do you come up with this crap?

If I was anti Apple I would not work on a MacBook and carry an iPhone, even though I feel betrayed and will switch to Android as soon as a reliable alternative shows up (I want a solid phone, not a piece of plastic). The MacBook Air is underpowered, it's very small and we wonder where the power comes from or where the battery is, I did not make that up, I thought it was common knowledge, did I miss something?

A blog called "Applesucks" would be evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes:

If I am right it did hurt the sell, or I am wrong and it did not, you have to pick one =;o) I think it is all depending on what else is on the shelve. I do not believe most of Apple's consumers to be fans or even loving Apple more than the product and I do not believe the masses will pull with the increasingly obvious abuse from Apple. The company has the right to do it but I believe it would be not reasonable to say Flash did not play any role in Android's success.

iPhone sales have only been limited by production to date.

That alone is enough for me to endorse Flash because I remember spending sometime up to 50% of my time dealing with cross browser and cross platform issues, I save my clients 100% of that overhead with Flash since I actually never even test my application on other browsers or OS until the end because I know the chances of discrepancy is close to 0. That alone means saving 25% to 50% of the total development budget.

That's good for developers and their clients. Which is why you support it. Cross platform development is not usually in the best interest of consumers though.

Finally some sense. There is no doubt that whoever does not like Flash ads will hate HTML5 ads, there is no doubt that when HTML5 will be pushed to the limit it will be as much of a resource drain as non optimized Flash was (I have actually seen 10.2 outperform HTML5 in many use cases involving video, 3D, complex rendering, frame-rate etc).

Sure, but we will have more control over HTML5 content because it is an open standard and will have multiple implementations to choose from.

Well it only went up 0.7% between 2009 and 2010, I would not really call that "going up" when Android shown 888% increase in 2010 from the year before, way more spectacular that any iPhone performance to date. I know, it is unfair because Apple only 1 device blablabla but the bottom line is you do not know more than I do how many customers Apple lost to Android over the Flash issue. All I know is that a lot of people are not happy about it and the fact they pull with it does not mean everyone does.

So, you went from 0.4% to 0.7% pulled out of nowhere. The real number is 89%. Stop repeating made up crap.

No it does not, Apple could have lost 10% market share over Flash their numbers will still look exactly as it does now: 0.7% market share increase between 2009 and 2010. Now, let's see how the iPhone 5 does and how good Apple is doing compared to last year... we will know in a matter of months.

More made up numbers. Apple sells every iPhone they produce. They have not lost any sales to Flash.

Where do you get that from? Where exactly do you see Flash installations on phone sold prior to its release?

Anyone that upgrades to Froyo and installs Flash? Adobe's actual release said 20 million shipped or upgraded. Not just shipped.

http://eon.businesswire.com/news/eon/20110213005219/en

50% based on what number?

Current growth rates of the smartphone market (302 million smartphones in 2010 with 75% growth from 2009.) I was actually being generous. 200 million is well below 50% in 2012.

W3C standards or outdated before to even see the light, I wish you good luck keeping up with Flash by sticking to W3C, their bureaucracy has been the worst enemy of the evolution of the web since day 1 and it is being carried on with HTML5 now.

In your opinion. Believe it or not, the type of content available through Flash isn't really that important to my life. I'm not waiting on pins and needles for a transition of the content to HTML5.

It is not because they can that they may, consumers do not give a damn about copyrights, they will decide based on what it delivers and what it does not deliver. Only Apple is pushing that kind of crap and I doubt they are not losing share over it but we can keep going for days.

What in the world are you talking about? Are you proposing that we ignore copyright?

I never heard of a platform refraining me from installing a software that we know works on that platform. Give me examples of a company deciding out of the blue that they will refrain, not just remove from factory default, but refrain a competitive technology to be installed?

You misquoted me. Again. I said that. Not dccorona.

Just because you haven't heard of something doesn't make it illegal. But there are tons of platforms that choose what content they want to provide. My cable company chooses what channels to carry. WalMart chooses what products to carry. Microsoft chooses which file formats Office will support.

That is not true, most of the money with digital entertainment is monetized though Flash today with crumbles left to Microsoft Silverlight.

Source?

I am talking about market share and in points, in both cases Apple gained a fraction of a percent market share between:

2.1% market share in 2009, 2.9% in 2010 for all mobile devices.
14.4% market share in 2009, 15.7% in 2010 for smart phones.

No, you weren't. You are lying. Bald faced and obvious attempt to cover your mistake.

1) None of the numbers you listed here support 0.4% (or 0.7%) growth in Apple's market share.

2) You said "Apple increased sales by 0.4% between 2009 and 2010, compared to Android's 888% surge." Not share. Sales.

3) It would be a mathematical impossibility for Android to increase their market share by 888%.

What you are actually referring to with Android 888% increase was probably 2009 sales vs 2010 sales. The comparable number for Apple, as I pointed out, was 89%.

I do not care much about how many units Apple sale or how much many they make, all I worry about is whether or not they have enough market share to manipulate competition. It was the case, it is no more so now it is really about the choice, that choice you denied the user the right to have on his iPhone or iPad. Now, let's see how long Apple is going to keep it up. I think they will break open on the iPad but that's just me.

They don't have enough market share to manipulate competition. We've established that over and over. You just pull it out whenever you want to insinuate that they are doing something illegal by not including Flash Player.

Without upgrade or new contract it is not unusual at all to end up with a $1000 bill once you get the accessories and MobileMe and the extra care and the case and you know, all the stuff. If you end up paying only $200 or $300 does not mean the true value is $1000 because if it was not $1000 then maybe it would be free, like most phones are and like most smart phones will become within the next 2 years.

:confused: What bullcrap is this? If someone asked me how much my phone costs, I surely wouldn't include optional accessories and services and the extended warranty. You exaggerated for no other reason than to make your point. Admit it and move on.
 
The MacBook air, considering its size, has plenty of RAM, a powerful enough processor for what it is (this isn't supposed to be a computer for creating content, other than documents that is) and pretty solid screen resolution.

I did not mean to say it is a lesser product, I just meant that because of its nature and purpose, which you described, battery consumption and CPU usage was even more of a concerned on AIR since it is underpowered compared to not just computers but laptop in general, not because they are better but because they are bigger.

That being said, although they aren't totally against it (and I believe working to implement it), Microsoft didn't include Flash or the option for it on WP7. They are making sure it works well, just like apple (claims) to be doing, but they seem optimistic that they can accomplish that soon. Apple does not feel the same way.

Microsoft has committed to include Flash in its mobile offering since several years ago. The recent conflicts or tensions between Adobe and Microsoft were more related to "others" having issue with each other than Adobe and Microsoft. Both CEOs met not long ago and Microsoft made absolutely no announcement of any kind of intention to not support Flash, there was actually instance of the opposite (Microsoft confirming support for Flash).

Including accessories and mobileme and apple care in the price of the phone isn't a valid way to justify an argument. Those are options. The phone has a value of $600 or $700. Accessories are options.

I was trying to create an image of a fancy phone, "the $1000 phone" which is something I have read in media many times, it was an idiom not intended to be representative of the actual price tag.

I don't know if theres an issue with multi quote or if you're deliberately changing peoples names (I doubt it and I hope not), but these two quotes from your last post are attributed to me, even though I never said them. They came from someone else.

Forgive me about that, I use the multi quote but then cut sections and sometime I get mixed up with copying and pasting names to recreate quoted paragraphs.

So, you went from 0.4% to 0.7% pulled out of nowhere. The real number is 89%. Stop repeating made up crap.

No the real number is between 0.8% and 1.3% market share gain over the year:

Apple had 2.1% market share in 2009, 2.9% in 2010 for all mobile devices.
Apple had 14.4% market share in 2009, 15.7% in 2010 for smart phones.

Anyone that upgrades to Froyo and installs Flash? Adobe's actual release said 20 million shipped or upgraded. Not just shipped.

That is correct, 20 mullion shipped with or upgraded to Flash Player 10.1 and 87 million devices supporting Adobe AIR by the end of last year. I got mixed up with my Gartner numbers which are only sales to the end user, not shipping. Not the case here.

Current growth rates of the smartphone market (302 million smartphones in 2010 with 75% growth from 2009.) I was actually being generous. 200 million is well below 50% in 2012.

It is actually 250,000 and that was an estimate made in June 2010. I do not see how could Flash get 50% market share when all manufacturers are now shipping Flash on all their products but Apple which has 15%, so who are the 35% remaining? Something is wrong with the numbers.

Microsoft chooses which file formats Office will support.

Yeah but that would be like Apple not allowing Flash on native apps, what is happening would be more like Microsoft banning Flash or any other format for that matter from the browser experience. Keep thinking it's ok, I don't.
 
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A lot of people here probably don't realize they use Flash as much as they do. Furthermore, it seems almost no one here is a programmer or web developer. Flash is just about the easiest way to create an interactive web applet. Why do you think it's popular folks? Moreover, it allows advertisers and content creators to have control. Like it or not, that is what funds the Internet. As flex mentioned, pretty much everyone's smartphones will have Flash exept Apple by the end of this year. That'll leave iPhone looking just stupid.

As a few posts here said, what's wrong with choice. I love Apple products, but not allowing Flash will severely shrink the iPhone platform. I only want to use a phone that has a lot of apps. iphone may have a lot of fart apps but eventually the majority of quality apps may only be written for Android. And it will be because Apple said ***** you to Adobe and other businesses that could and should have been partners with Apple, not enemies. Apple management: never ceasing to amaze me at idiocy. They have brilliant engineers and pointy-haired bosses or something.

Don't generalize about the people here. If you bothered to read through this thread you'd see hundreds of logical, factually correct, and eloquent reasons why Flash is a detriment to the open web, why it - like all other plugins - provides a less optimal experience for users, why it doesn't need to be on the iPhone (from a regulatory standpoint), and why it should not be on the iPhone (from both a technical standpoint and a user experience standpoint).
 
No the real number is between 0.8% and 1.3% market share gain over the year:

Apple had 2.1% market share in 2009, 2.9% in 2010 for all mobile devices.
Apple had 14.4% market share in 2009, 15.7% in 2010 for smart phones.

Come on. Read my last post. Neither of those number compares to 888% growth by Android. It doesn't even make logical sense. You were and are completely wrong.

That is correct, 20 mullion shipped with or upgraded to Flash Player 10.1 and 87 million devices supporting Adobe AIR by the end of last year. I got mixed up with my Gartner numbers which are only sales to the end user, not shipping. Not the case here.

Thank you. And if most of the numbers that you posted today were not incorrect or made up, I would accept that it was just simple confusion.

Current growth rates of the smartphone market (302 million smartphones in 2010 with 75% growth from 2009.) I was actually being generous. 200 million is well below 50% in 2012.

It is actually 250,000 and that was an estimate made in June 2010. I do not see how could Flash get 50% market share when all manufacturers are now shipping Flash on all their products but Apple which has 15%, so who are the 35% remaining? Something is wrong with the numbers.

And their latest estimate from 2 days ago is for 132 million in 2011. Still well below 25% of the expected market, let alone installed base.

I assume you mean 250 million in 2012. Which given a conservative increase of 50% year over year in the smartphone market to 675 million devices would result in a 37% share of the market.

When the numbers that you supply don't support your own argument, maybe the problem is with your argument and not the numbers.

Yeah but that would be like Apple not allowing Flash on native apps, what is happening would be more like Microsoft banning Flash or any other format for that matter from the browser experience. Keep thinking it's ok, I don't.

Whether or not you think it is okay is irrelevant. Especially since you have a financial stake in the outcome. But I'm not sure what gives you or anyone else the right to force Apple to modify their software to support Adobe. Generally, they have to be breaking some law for this to happen. And they are not.
 
Don't generalize about the people here. If you bothered to read through this thread you'd see hundreds of logical, factually correct, and eloquent reasons why Flash is a detriment to the open web, why it - like all other plugins - provides a less optimal experience for users, why it doesn't need to be on the iPhone (from a regulatory standpoint), and why it should not be on the iPhone (from both a technical standpoint and a user experience standpoint).

I didn't generalize. I said most. I think that's about right, just by my guesswork. Could be wrong, of course.

Even if all the old arguments are still true or even will be for iPhone 5, namely that phones aren't powerful enough to run FLash or it's not coded efficiently enough or both....Apple could just leave it OFF by default. That solves the problem for non-technical users.

Don't you think that would be the best scenario?
 
I didn't generalize. I said most. I think that's about right, just by my guesswork. Could be wrong, of course.

Even if all the old arguments are still true or even will be for iPhone 5, namely that phones aren't powerful enough to run FLash or it's not coded efficiently enough or both....Apple could just leave it OFF by default. That solves the problem for non-technical users.

Don't you think that would be the best scenario?

They are going to keep going on and on and on and on about the same "justifications", those people do not give a damn about anything else that Apple ideology. I think by now everyone is able to make its own mind, we are going to see very quickly whether Apple is going down or not. I am anticipating the worst sales ever for iPhone 5 and iPad 2, both. Let's them play with HTML5, numbers will come soon enough.

When there will be more people with Flash enabled phone than there are people with iPhone then, they will stop talking that much crap because everyone around will be able to tell them that they are ignorant or liars. They do not like when we say that but hey, I just can't wait for the numbers. Did you see how the meaning of numbers get twisted every time is it not playing out for Apple? God forbid, if I say 0.7 instead of 1.2 I get insulted for paragraphs and paragraphs at a time.

I am actually having fun because all those posts stay right here and we are going to be able to come back next month, 3 month, 6 months from now and give them some reality check. Until then, every time we make a point they will try to drawn the fish in the water by getting everyone confused and stripping every point of its meaning.
 
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I didn't generalize. I said most. I think that's about right, just by my guesswork. Could be wrong, of course.

Even if all the old arguments are still true or even will be for iPhone 5, namely that phones aren't powerful enough to run FLash or it's not coded efficiently enough or both....Apple could just leave it OFF by default. That solves the problem for non-technical users.

Don't you think that would be the best scenario?

Or even simpler (because as far as I know mobile safari doesn't have the ability to support plugins.) Whenever I come across a video file that my iPad can't play at the moment (like avi) it usually does nothing, unless you have oPlayer or VLC installed, then it offers you the "open in" button.

Just imagine if flash was released as an app, whenever you find a flash element you want to play, you just open it in the flash app? It would be like a built in version of click to flash.
 
Just imagine if flash was released as an app, whenever you find a flash element you want to play, you just open it in the flash app? It would be like a built in version of click to flash.

That will never happen by Apple's own will, if Flash hit iPad in any way that will be the result of regulator pressure or market pressure. Apple will try to keep it up and save the face because let's face it, if Flash hits iPad or iPhone that will be a public humiliation for Jobs. But it's not like they have much control over it now anyway, they will do what the government authorities decide or what customers demand, only if neither decide nor demand will Apple really be doing what they want. Something else that is going to get the fan boys all agitated, they can't stand the idea that Apple is not that powerful or can be powerless in front of certain situations.
 
They are going to keep going on and on and on and on about the same "justifications", those people do not give a damn about anything else that Apple ideology. I think by now everyone is able to make its own mind, we are going to see very quickly whether Apple is going down or not. I am anticipating the worst sales ever for iPhone 5 and iPad 2, both. Let's them play with HTML5, the world keeps going forward.

When there will be more people with Flash enabled phone than there are people with iPhone then, they will stop talking that much crap because everyone around will be able to tell them that they are ignorant or liars. They do not like when we say that but hey, I just can't wait for the numbers. Did you see how each number get twisted with 0.4 instead of 0.7 being the end of the world kind of mistake. Every time the numbers are not good for Apple they start to get agitated. They just cant conceive that Apple's golden years on mobile are over.

With all due respect, you are no more objective on this subject than you think we are. Less so probably, based on your occupation and the name of your blog.

The reason people keep questioning your numbers is because you are using them as part of your argument, and they are so off-base it is laughable. Don't use incorrect numbers to back up an argument and then say we are getting agitated because you are getting them wrong.

Apple's golden years on mobile may be over, but there is absolutely NOTHING that backs that up. Your belief does not count. And the success of the launch of an 8 Month old phone with Verizon further discounts that opinion. I'd be more than happy to continue this portion of the argument at the end of the year, but until then you have absolutely no leg to stand on. But even Q1 2011, Apple's iPhone sales are up. So when exactly is the downfall going to begin?

You have been getting logical, realistic, and fact based rebuttals to your arguments. There is no need, in fact it is quite offensive, to continue to suggest that because there are those that disagree with you, we are ignorant, liars, or slaves to everything Apple tells us.
 
Even if all the old arguments are still true or even will be for iPhone 5, namely that phones aren't powerful enough to run FLash or it's not coded efficiently enough or both....

Those are only some of the reasons that Apple chose to not include Flash. Other reasons have not been addressed.

Apple could just leave it OFF by default. That solves the problem for non-technical users.

Don't you think that would be the best scenario?

Not for people who don't want to use Flash. The lack of Flash on iOS devices encourages web developers to support open standards to reach iOS users. Which means more content for those of us that choose not to use Flash.

They are going to keep going on and on and on and on about the same "justifications", those people do not give a damn about anything else that Apple ideology.

You keep repeating the same old crap despite evidence to the contrary. You know that there are several people in this thread whose objections to Flash have nothing to do with Apple, including myself. So why do you continue with the stereotyping and inflamatory language?

I think by now everyone is able to make its own mind, we are going to see very quickly whether Apple is going down or not. I am anticipating the worst sales ever for iPhone 5 and iPad 2, both.

Despite all evidence to the contrary.

Let's them play with HTML5, the world keeps going forward.

Why do you have a problem with promoting competition to Flash? Wouldn't a strong competitor bring out the best in Adobe? Seems like that's what's happened over the last year as you have pointed out yourself.
 
With all due respect, you are no more objective on this subject than you think we are. Less so probably, based on your occupation and the name of your blog.

They only indicate that I know what I am talking about, do not try to create the like-hood of confusion again, I do not work for Adobe and I could be billing my time for HTML5 right now if it was so great. Now, tell me again what are you technical credentials and why I should listen to you about whether or not Flash is this or that? I asked multiple times and you never answered.

And the success of the launch of an 8 Month old phone with Verizon further discounts that opinion..

What success? Verizon hiring all those people to handle the flow of customers who never came? Anticipation of seeing people sleeping in front of the stores overnight when in fact there was barely a line at all Verizon and Apple stores from NYC to Atlanta from opening to close?

But even Q1 2011, Apple's iPhone sales are up. So when exactly is the downfall going to begin?

Can you provide numbers and sources for that claim? I provided you with a report from Gartner released in February 2011 showing that Apple only increased it's market share by anywhere between 0.7 and 1.% between 2009 and 2010, and it can only get worst as the competition is showing explosive growth as Android gained 18.8% market share for the same period. 1% vs 19% market gain, who is going up?

Selling a few million devices does not mean Apple is going up. But obviously you will fight to death to preserve the myth and collective illusion that Apple is going to walk away from the war it started winning it. I'm just smiling and observing at this point.
 
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They only indicate that I know what I am talking about, do not try to create the like-hood of confusion again, I do not work for Adobe and I could be billing my time for HTML5 right now if it was so great. Now, tell me again what are you technical credentials and why I should listen to you about whether or not Flash is this or that? I asked multiple times and you never answered.

Why would I need technical credentials to be part of this conversation? I'm a paying customer of the products we are talking about. That makes me more than qualified to be part of this discussion. My experience with the horror that is Flash on OS X also qualifies me. I haven't tried to even enter the technical part of the discussion. The consumers who are buying the phone don't have technical credentials either.


What success? Verizon hiring all those people to handle the flow of customers who never came? Anticipation of seeing people sleeping in front of the stores overnight when in fact there was barely a line at all Verizon and Apple stores from NYC to Atlanta from opening to close?

I've already provided sources stating that it was the fastest launch for Verizon. Did people line up as they do every year for the launch? No...many explanations were given...the weather, the supposed launch of the iPhone 5 (?), and the fact that Verizon allowed pre-ordering a week before. That being said, it was still the most successful launch for Verizon.

Can you provide numbers and sources for that claim? I provided you with a report from Gartner released in February 2011 showing that Apple only increased it's market share by anywhere between 0.7 and 1.% between 2009 and 2010, and it can only get worst as the competition is showing explosive growth as Android gained 18.8% market share for the same period. 1% vs 19% market gain, who is going up?

Selling a few million devices does not mean Apple is going up. But obviously you will fight to death to preserve the myth and collective illusion that Apple is going to walk away from the war it started winning it. I'm just smiling and observing at this point.


http://gigaom.com/apple/apple-q1-2011-apple-wins-christmas/

For the holiday quarter, Apple reported revenue of $26.74 billion and a net quarterly profit of $6 billion, or $6.43 earnings per share, breaking the most recent record of $15.7 billion earned the previous quarter. Apple’s revenue surged past Wall Street estimates of $24 billion, and for the third year in a row, revenue has risen $5 billion or more during the first fiscal quarter....As for the iPhone, after selling 14.1 million units during the first full quarter of iPhone 4 availability (July through September), Apple sold 16.2 million iPhones during the holidays. That’s up an astonishing 86 percent year-over-year, and since 2008, iPhone sales have approximately doubled during each subsequent year’s first quarter. The iPhone earned nearly $10.5 billion for Apple, some 40 percent of all revenue.
 
Did you see how the meaning of numbers get twisted every time is it not playing out for Apple? God forbid, if I say 0.7 instead of 1.2 I get insulted for paragraphs and paragraphs at a time.

How in the world are you still not getting this? You are not saying 0.7 instead of 1.2. You were saying 0.4% instead of 89%. That's a huge difference.

Apple will try to keep it up and save the face because let's face it, if Flash hits iPad or iPhone that will be a public humiliation for Jobs.

Like I've said before, the war is in your own mind and the mind of the fanatics on either side. There would be no humiliation in Apple saying that Adobe has addressed its concerns, and they will now support the Flash Player on iOS. Personally, I think that would suck. But Apple has hardly painted themselves in a corner. By you own admission, a reasonable version of Flash Player for mobile has only existed for six months.

But it's not like they have much control over it now anyway, they will do what the government authorities decide.

And once again you post unsubstantiated crap even after admitting that Apple does not have a dominant market share. The government authorities are not going to force Apple to allow Flash Player. Apple has no legal obligation to do so.

What success? Verizon hiring all those people to handle the flow of customers who never came? Anticipation of seeing people sleeping in front of the stores overnight when in fact there was barely a line at all Verizon and Apple stores from NYC to Atlanta from opening to close?

Are lines the only measure of success now? How about the fact that a six month old phone became Verizon's best selling release within a few hours?

Can you provide numbers and sources for that claim? I provided you with a report from Gartner released in February 2011 showing that Apple only increased it's market share by anywhere between 0.7 and 1.%

No, you provided numbers showing Apple increased its market share 0.8% in the mobile phone market and 1.3% in the smartphone market. And iOS was the only OS besides Android to show any growth.

between 2009 and 2010, and it can only get worst as the competition is showing explosive growth as Android gained 18.8% market share for the same period. 1% vs 22% market gain, who is going up?

Both Apple and Android are going up. Isn't that obvious? At the expense of the rest of the market.

Selling a few million devices does not mean Apple is going up. But obviously you will fight to death to preserve the myth and collective illusion that Apple is going to walk away from the war it started winning it. I'm just smiling and observing at this point.

You really don't understand numbers very well. Increases in sales and increases in market share are both signs of Apple "going up".

As far as the war, it depends on what they are for. Apple sure as heck is winning the war that they are actually fighting, with around 50% of the profits for the entire mobile phone industry.

As far as the OS market share battle, what is the significance of the Android share for Flash? What percentage of those Android phones have Flash installed? What percentage are even capable? Keep in mind that Android numbers include Chinese Android variants that can't even run apps from the Android market!
 
Don't you think that would be the best scenario?

No, because my issues with Flash stems from a philosophical standpoint - not a technical standpoint. I have no doubt that, on a long enough timeline, Adobe will be able to deliver a product that matches expectations of the most stringent users, companies, and so on. The fact that companies are basically waiting for Adobe to deliver a better experience speaks volumes in and of itself, but that's a separate issue. My problem with Flash stems from its proprietorship - it exists as a violation to the open web.

I give Apple a lot of credit for defining the open web in terms of that which is defined by the W3 - not as some marketing buzz abstraction. The open web does not include plugins. That doesn't mean proprietary plugins like Flash don't have their place in specific media delivery like Netflix or other DRM content on desktop class internet applications; however, web video has become pervasive, as important to the web as text or images. It shouldn't be controlled by a single company. No matter what your personal opinion of Adobe may be, it's not an egalitarian institution. It's a company with its own goals. I simply cannot accept a single company owning a key component of the web.

The W3 created the <video> tag specifically to liberate regular web video from proprietorship. That decision has nothing to do with Apple, which is why I find this entire debate pretty pointless. What everyone ought to be arguing is if they feel comfortable with video being controlled by Adobe. I don't, and that's why I'm glad Flash isn't a feature "turned off" by default. It shouldn't be there in the first place.

EDIT: Oh, and contrary to the Adobe evangelists' claims in this thread, my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with Apple except insofar as I'm glad they're promoting the open web.
 
No, because my issues with Flash stems from a philosophical standpoint - not a technical standpoint.

Good luck with that.

For the holiday quarter, Apple reported revenue of $26.74 billion and a net quarterly profit of $6 billion, or $6.43 earnings per share, breaking the most recent record of $15.7 billion earned the previous quarter.

We are talking about different things, profit and sales vs market share, I only worry about how much Apple controls, I could not care less how much they sell. So yes it seems indeed that Apple is doing well in term of revenue but look at the numbers closer:

1/ The smartphone market grew 80%+ between 2009 and 2010.
2/ Apple sales grew 80%+ between 2009 and 2010.
3/ Adndroid grew 880%+ between 2009 and 2010.

MARKET GROWTH 2009/2010: 80%+
APPLE'S GOWTH 2009/2010: 80%+
ANDROID'S GROWS 2009/2010: 880%+
APPLE'S GAIN IN MARKET SHARE 2009/2010: 1.2%
ANDROID'S GAIN IN MARKET SHARE 2009/2010: 18%

You are confusing Apple keeping up with Apple going up, Apple did not go any further up than the market took it through its own growth, and that 80% growth is to be compared with Android 800%. Apple sales are way up but market share is stagnant, that should tell you all you need to know.

I also find amusing that both of you guys hold on the same lines straight from Verizon and Apple's PR office: it's the fastest launch in Verizon history and post it 3 times within a few posts, that tells how much is backing up that wonderful Verizon sale faster than ever whatever that means!

Jeez, when you think how much crap corporation can spit to save the appearances. A couple months, that all it is going to take to get to the bottom of this, a couple of months and iPhone 5 sales will tell it all. No more residual momentum, now the fight is going to be based on merit and facts, not some delusional CEO's mind (the same dude who said "not a chance" when asked if Android will outsell iPhone in 2010 back at the beginning of the year. Not a chance he said, that's confidence! That's lot of crap too since Android did just outsell but crushed iOS.

I give Apple a lot of credit for defining the open web in terms of that which is defined by the W3 - not as some marketing buzz abstraction.

Apple supports whatever can't compete with its iTunes and AppStore. W3C has been the worst enemy of the evolution of the web ever since Internet existed, the kind of open web you are talking about means the slowest rate of progression you can imagine. You have that fascination for open standard, I wish you knew the mess that it is. Users always get screwed with HTML and CSS, always. Battle between the browsers, battle between the giants... Do you realize that the whole industry has to agree for anything to happen with your open standard? It amazes me that people can talk that much crap without knowing what they are talking about. W3C is anti-innovation matter in a can and you glorify that like if it is the 9th wonder of the world! A-m-a-z-i-n-g.

I'm done, I will leave W3C to baby boomers and go have some fun on generation x and y with Flash. Have fun with Apple's web! :)
 
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Apple should make flash available on the iPhone just to profit off the tons of users who will download a flash blocker from the app store. :D

I used flash on WM, Android, and on the iPhone(using Frash). They ALL suck!!!
Although they seem to be perfect at displaying flash ads. But playing videos is 30/70 and forget about any decent flash gaming. And sites that are heavily or made up entirely of flash are buggy at best.

The best experience I've had with mobile flash was using the server based browser Skyfire on WM. And as good as it was with flash, it still had too many problems to depend on. Zooming & scrolling was extremely choppy

I don't see any real reason why someone would advocate flash on a mobile browser until it's at least nearly perfected. I don't blame Apple at all for not inviting a headache to deal with.
 
Well it only went up 0.7% between 2009 and 2010, I would not really call that "going up" when Android shown 888% increase in 2010 from the year before,
If you're going to use honest numbers to promote misinformation, please learn how to do so intelligently. You are clumsily comparing an absolute increase (the .8 pts/1.+ pts) over a relative increase (the 800+%) and doing so from different categories (market share vs. shipping volume).
I never heard of a platform refraining me from installing a software that we know works on that platform.
Some would say the issue here is you've a lot looser definition of "works" compared to others.

From a court point of view yes, but it is up to the consumer to grant or not that right to Apple. As a consumer, I could say that as far as I am concerned Apple has no right or should I say no legitimate purpose to refrain me from installing Flash. At the end consumers buy products, not lawyers.
But lawyers are consumers too! AND they have a LOT of money! (Well, the good ones... and I'll leave it to each person to define a "good lawyer with lots of money").

But to be serious, your "it is up to the consumer..." line is like saying "I pay your salary" to someone at a store you're shopping at. In fact, I'd say it's the exact same. And calling **** feces doesn't make it smell better - it's still a line of crap.
 
We are talking about different things, profit and sales vs market share, I only worry about how much Apple controls, I could not care less how much they sell. So yes it seems indeed that Apple is doing well in term of revenue but look at the numbers closer:

1/ The smartphone market grew 80%+ between 2009 and 2010.
2/ Apple sales grew 80%+ between 2009 and 2010.
3/ Adndroid grew 880%+ between 2009 and 2010.

MARKET GROWTH 2009/2010: 80%+
APPLE'S GOWTH 2009/2010: 80%+
ANDROID'S GROWS 2009/2010: 880%+
APPLE'S GAIN IN MARKET SHARE 2009/2010: 1.2%
ANDROID'S GAIN IN MARKET SHARE 2009/2010: 18%

You are confusing Apple keeping up with Apple going up, Apple did not go any further up than the market took it through its own growth, and that 80% growth is to be compared with Android 800%. Apple sales are way up but market share is stagnant, that should tell you all you need to know.

I also find amusing that both of you guys hold on the same lines straight from Verizon and Apple's PR office: it's the fastest launch in Verizon history and post it 3 times within a few posts, that tells how much is backing up that wonderful Verizon sale faster than ever whatever that means!


One thing I am qualified to talk about is sales. Obviously you don't have a complete understanding of these numbers.

In business, you can show 1% growth in market share but double your profits from the previous quarter. That is called success. That doesn't indicate a downtrend.

Of course you can say that Android gained a huge amount of market share in what could be considered their first full year of shipping phones. So you can go from 0 to (pick a number) in a hurry. What those numbers show, as others have said, that the real losers are the other manufacturers.


I also find amusing that both of you guys hold on the same lines straight from Verizon and Apple's PR office: it's the fastest launch in Verizon history and post it 3 times within a few posts, that tells how much is backing up that wonderful Verizon sale faster than ever whatever that means!

Jeez, when you think how much crap corporation can spit to save the appearances. A couple months, that all it is going to take to get to the bottom of this, a couple of months and iPhone 5 sales will tell it all. No more residual momentum, now the fight is going to be based on merit and facts, not some delusional CEO's mind (the same dude who said "not a chance" when asked if Android will outsell iPhone in 2010 back at the beginning of the year. Not a chance he said, that's confidence! That's lot of crap too since Android did just outsell but crushed iOS.

You asked for a source, and I gave you one. And as far as corporation spin, I can use that same line for every article you have posted about Adobe. Don't they have every reason to spin the situation with Apple? Just because you don't believe the source, or it doesn't help your argument, doesn't mean it isn't true.


I'm done, I will leave W3C to baby boomers and go have some fun on generation x and y with Flash. Have fun with Apple's W3C web! :)

Later! We'll miss you. ;)
 
Why are quotes being attributed to me that I did not make?

For the holiday quarter, Apple reported revenue of $26.74 billion and a net quarterly profit of $6 billion, or $6.43 earnings per share, breaking the most recent record of $15.7 billion earned the previous quarter.

I never said this, yet you, flexengineer, have claimed I said it in order to continue talking about your fanciful numbers.

You need to fix your earlier post and clarify that I didn't make any such statements. And if you don't I'll just report you to the moderators. You're behaving extremely poorly now, and you're certainly not helping your cause by making up quotes that other people never said in order to continue to propagate your nonsense claims.
 
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Another vote for Flash support. Tired of seeing web sites with holes in them.

Contact the website then. :rolleyes:

Since flexengineer purposely misquoted me in order to obscure my post, here it is again:

No, because my issues with Flash stems from a philosophical standpoint - not a technical standpoint. I have no doubt that, on a long enough timeline, Adobe will be able to deliver a product that matches expectations of the most stringent users, companies, and so on. The fact that companies are basically waiting for Adobe to deliver a better experience speaks volumes in and of itself, but that's a separate issue. My problem with Flash stems from its proprietorship - it exists as a violation to the open web.

I give Apple a lot of credit for defining the open web in terms of that which is defined by the W3 - not as some marketing buzz abstraction. The open web does not include plugins. That doesn't mean proprietary plugins like Flash don't have their place in specific media delivery like Netflix or other DRM content on desktop class internet applications; however, web video has become pervasive, as important to the web as text or images. It shouldn't be controlled by a single company. No matter what your personal opinion of Adobe may be, it's not an egalitarian institution. It's a company with its own goals. I simply cannot accept a single company owning a key component of the web.

The W3 created the <video> tag specifically to liberate regular web video from proprietorship. That decision has nothing to do with Apple, which is why I find this entire debate pretty pointless. What everyone ought to be arguing is if they feel comfortable with video being controlled by Adobe. I don't, and that's why I'm glad Flash isn't a feature "turned off" by default. It shouldn't be there in the first place.

EDIT: Oh, and contrary to the Adobe evangelists' claims in this thread, my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with Apple except insofar as I'm glad they're promoting the open web.

But since flex is too "disinterested" to take the argument in, I'll pose a very simple question to him.

Flexengineer, are you comfortable with Adobe controlling all video on the open web? Yes or no.
 
Jeez, when you think how much crap corporation can spit to save the appearances. A couple months, that all it is going to take to get to the bottom of this, a couple of months and iPhone 5 sales will tell it all. No more residual momentum, now the fight is going to be based on merit and facts, not some delusional CEO's mind (the same dude who said "not a chance" when asked if Android will outsell iPhone in 2010 back at the beginning of the year. Not a chance he said, that's confidence! That's lot of crap too since Android did just outsell but crushed iOS.

Apple supports whatever can't compete with its iTunes and AppStore. W3C has been the worst enemy of the evolution of the web ever since Internet existed, the kind of open web you are talking about means the slowest rate of progression you can imagine. You have that fascination for open standard, I wish you knew the mess that it is. Users always get screwed with HTML and CSS, always. Battle between the browsers, battle between the giants... Do you realize that the whole industry has to agree for anything to happen with your open standard? It amazes me that people can talk that much crap without knowing what they are talking about. W3C is anti-innovation matter in a can and you glorify that like if it is the 9th wonder of the world! A-m-a-z-i-n-g.

I'm done, I will leave W3C to baby boomers and go have some fun on generation x and y with Flash. Have fun with Apple's web! :)

You sound like you'd still be clinging to punch cards and BASIC if you could, because it's easier...flash being easier ≠ flash being better
 
Why are quotes being attributed to me that I did not make?



I never said this, yet you, flexengineer, have claimed I said it in order to continue talking about your fanciful numbers.

You need to fix your earlier post and clarify that I didn't make any such statements. And if you don't I'll just report you to the moderators. You're behaving extremely poorly now, and you're certainly not helping your cause by making up quotes that other people never said in order to continue to propagate your nonsense claims.

that was a mistake on his part, but not an intentional one. It was a product of copying over the quote tags and not changing the names
 
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