Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[err404]

Online video sites are six times more likely to work w/o Flash today then they were a ago.
html5-adoption-for-web-video-continues-to-grow
That's an remarkable adoption rate and really strikes home the shrinking role that Flash will play in the future of the web.

 

[UTclassof89]

Online video sites are six times more likely to work w/o Flash today then they were a ago.
html5-adoption-for-web-video-continues-to-grow
That's an remarkable adoption rate and really strikes home the shrinking role that Flash will play in the future of the web.

True... if all you use Flash for is a video holder. AND you don't need robust support for tracking who watched your video, how much they watched, and DRM: YouTube knows this

 

[infidel69]

Flash is alot like pot, people who don't like it don't want anybody to use it, even the people who need it. Adobe isn't forcing anybody to use it, if you don't like it then simply disable it in settings. I really don't understand why some members hate Flash with such a passion. Is it because of Steve.... probably.

After reading the reviews of the Xoom and Atrix I was really curious to see how the Tegra 2 processor in the Xoom and Atrix handles Flash content first hand. So I went to the AT&T store this morning to play with the Atrix and I was very impressed with it's Flash support. It played every Flash video I threw at it flawlessly and this was with Flash 10.1 not 10.2 which is supposed to incorporate GPU accelleration. I still think the iphone is better, but the competition is going to start advertising this capability and this will sway some people to choose Android over IOS. I just don't see Steve winning this battle, I believe Flash support will come to IOS eventually with or without Steve.

 

[BaldiMac]

True... if all you use Flash for is a video holder. AND you don't need robust support for tracking who watched your video, how much they watched, and DRM: YouTube knows this

I could see how a developer would be concerned with those things. As a consumer, I'd be happier without any of them.

Flash is alot like pot, people who don't like it don't want anybody to use it, even the people who need it.

That's only true if you ignore most of the comments in this thread. Sure, there are the fringe element that either hate or love everything with no thought to rationality or moderation, but they are hardly representative of the whole. And they exist on both sides.

Adobe isn't forcing anybody to use it, if you don't like it then simply disable it in settings.

The only people advocating forcing anyone to do anything is the pro-flash people trying to force Apple to include Flash.

I really don't understand why some members hate Flash with such a passion.

Probably the same reason some members are against promoting a competitor to Flash.

After reading the reviews of the Xoom and Atrix I was really curious to see how the Tegra 2 processor in the Xoom and Atrix handles Flash content first hand. So I went to the AT&T store this morning to play with the Atrix and I was very impressed with it's Flash support. It played every Flash video I threw at it flawlessly and this was with Flash 10.1 not 10.2 which is supposed to incorporate GPU accelleration.

Is it really impressive that a dual-core, 1Ghz processor can play video? Maybe Flash has lowered expectations.

I still think the iphone is better, but the competition is going to start advertising this capability and this will sway some people to choose Android over IOS.

Isn't that how it should be?

 

[err404]

I really don't understand why some members hate Flash with such a passion. Is it because of Steve.... probably.

No. This has been discussed at length. Traditionally Flash only "improves" the web if you are on the dominant OS. Many Apple/Linux users don't like Flash because of a decade of Adobe providing a terrible product outside of Windows. The Apple/Linux clients have traditionally been far slower, more memory intensive and less stable then the Windows counterpart. It has only been in the last 6 months that Adobe has provided a decent plug-in for OSX. Unfortunately 6 months does not erase the bad impression left from Adobe's track record.
People have defended Adobe's lack of support on these platforms by claiming that Adobe should spend the most resources on the largest platform (at the time it was Windows). While the concentration of effort to a single platform is understandable from a business POV, it's not compatible with the ubiquity required for open content distribution on the web. It is a significant concerns that if Adobe gains a foot hold in the mobile space, they will revert to their prior model and once again focus efforts on the largest market share OS. This is the curse of proprietary software.
Apple Corp. has decided that they can not afford to play this cat an mouse game again. They have taken the approach that they can not let another company control the quality of the browsing experience. Therefore they will not allow any proprietary Plug-in on iOS. This policy is targeted at Flash, Silverlight and any other third party Plug-in.

 

[Krevnik]

No. This has been discussed at length. Many Apple/Linux user don't like Flash because of a decade of Adobe providing a terrible product outside of Windows. The Apple/Linux clients have traditionally been far slower, more memory intensive and less stable then the Windows counterpart. It has only been in the last 6 months that Adobe has provided a decent plug-in for OSX. Unfortunately 6 months does not erase the bad impression left from Adobe's track record.
People have defended Adobe's lack of support on these platforms by claiming that Adobe should spend the most resources on the largest platform (at the time it was Windows). While the concentration of effort to a single platform is understandable from a business POV, it's not compatible with the ubiquity required for open content distribution on the web. It is a significant concerns that if Adobe gains a foot hold in the mobile space, they will revert to their prior model and once again focus efforts on the largest market share OS. This is the curse if proprietary software.
Apple Corp. has decided that they can not afford to play this cat an mouse game again. They have taken the approach that they can not let another company control the quality of the browsing experience. Therefore they will not allow any proprietary Plug-in on iOS. This policy is targeted at Flash, Silverlight and any other third party Plug-in.

QFT.

The biggest problem is that because Adobe provides some level of support on enough platforms, and controls the specification (and can/does change it at will) of the format... 3rd party plugins will always be behind Adobe's implementation and tools. With HTML5 or other proper open standards, it's not up to a single entity to provide all the tools or change its mind. In fact, HTML5 has spawned better competition and improvement in browsers than Flash ever will.

 

[CylonGlitch]

 

[brock2621]

https://www.macrumors.com/2011/03/01/html5-adoption-for-web-video-continues-to-grow/

Just in case you missed it

 

[briankeith513]

Try Puffin browser

For those that want adobe flash content, try Puffin browser. It shows content that not even skyfire shows.

 

[flexengineer]

QFT.The biggest problem is that because Adobe provides some level of support on enough platforms, and controls the specification (and can/does change it at will) of the format...

While I understand the basis of your position I would also add that what you are complaining about is in part exactly why I am rocking Flash and have no interest in HTML5. Let me try to break it down without taking side (not sure it is even possible for me but let's try). Just for the record, I have been coding HTML5 and CSS for 11 years and was among the first handful of developers to implement full CSS layout and positioning without one single tag of HTML for VH1.com almost 10 years back.

- Nobody can stop Flash, no big corporation or group of interest or dominant business entity can do anything to slowdown, block or significantly hurt Flash. Well, that was until Apple but that is another story. Flash has a huge following and there are good reasons for it, you just miss it if you are not a developer but if it makes you feel better all major efforts around Flash for the past 4 years have been entirely based on user experience and the progress that have been made are sizable.

First time on mobile with 10.1 last July, 3 months later 10.2 beta is released with probably the most significant performance optimization in the history of Flash. 3 or 4 months later 10.2 is publicly released (2 weeks ago) and Adobe is already showing off a mind blowing 3D engine and hardware accelerated API that deliver games and graphic experience of quality never seen before on the web, this technology will probably be Flash 11 and should come out before the end of the year. That is pretty much what Flash has been doing once or twice a year for a decade and you know why I like it as it is? Because it goes as fast as I do and makes me more money than any other programming language, it empowers me to deliver experiences and features that money could not even buy my client, and I deliver that twice as fast. Go beat that, then I will look at the HTML5 specification. There is value to Flash that neither the hater nor Apple can apparently make go away.

What did HTML5 in the meantime, besides giving up on stuff like codec or any significant improvment that will be blocked by the corporations, no doubt about it. Corporation by definition are entities who could not care less than their bottom line. They will starve you and let you to die before to do anything just because it is good for you. I believe in products and technologies, I do not believe nor respect corporate entities, all their are good for as far as I am concerned is a signature on a check. I do not live and conduct business based on publicity ideology.

- HTML5 is dragged by back compatibility and this has been the downfall of HTML for as long as it existed. As a developer I spent half of my career doing productive work and the other half of my time waiting years for a technology to spread, waiting years for WC3 to depreciate a poop load of tags that were only supported because 70% of the world is lazy with no interest in changing things for 10 years in a row, and spent the rest of the time bumping my head against the wall to get that pixel precise positioning right on all browser. Never again, that alone will make me stay away from any standard. You will never have a standard that guarantee your application to look and work always the same everywhere and I mean everywhere but on Apple, that includes PC, Mac, Linux, most new mobile on the market especially after March 24th and 20 million mobiles from last year, there will be 50 tablets with Flash in 2011, the player is already on television and ip connected home devices. All that with one code and never the need to test the app on every browser and every computer combination. Wait until HTML5 websites start to hit the fan and watch how many websites will break in part on some browser and not other while some other part will work in one browser and not the other. Within the coming 2 years I believe all of us will be opening websites in 2 browser just to make some pages work. Welcome in W3C world, I have done it all a decade ago.

- HTML5 is at the mercy of the people we spent the entire thread criticized or hating non stop, every single day. Google, Apple, Adobe, Mozilla, Opera, Microsoft... they all have agendas, they all hold being an obstacle for the others above any common interest. I know quite a few people who sit in WC3 board, some from Google, some from Adobe and a lead engineer from Yahoo. I do not remember the last time I heard any of them say something good about it.

- Nothing ever happens at WC3 and that is, to my personal opinion, one of the top reason if not the number one reason why Apple supports it. Even the instigator of HTML5 gave up and walked away, creating an independent standard I think. Nothing of what we expected from CSS came, at least not when we needed it (and because of guess what: backward compatibility nature of the standard, permanent corporate guerillas between the giants which has 2 negative effects: it gives browser and standard owner a word to say about everything, where nothing else than what affects them is really of any concern to them. The second negative effect is the anti-competitive and anti-innovation affect on society. When Apple blocks Flash is makes progress go backward for a lot of us, lot of people and lot of developers. No one single entity should be able to dictate what technology you or I can use or not. Apple tries, I have been claiming for a year now that it is going to cost them a great deal this year, beyond expectation, let's see how crazy I am, or not.

- HTML has always been, along with its sister CSS, an absolute nightmare for any developer who actually goes any further than making a homepage on mac.com. I do not even find words to explain to you in non technical English how much the push of HTML5 the way Apple did it is a scam, there is absolutely no way in hell or heaven that any developer can do with HTML5 what we do with Flex and in the few cases where it is humanly possible it will be not financially viable. I can guarantee you that I will deliver with Flash a more engaging experience than any HTML and Javascript developer at 25 to 60% less time and I keep part of the saving because I create additional value compare to developers on other languages or platforms.

This is what Flash is, forget video on Youtube:
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2010-develop/flex-the-new-standard-for-vmware-management-consoles-/

 

[err404]

While I understand the basis of your position I would also add that what you are complaining about is in part exactly why I am rocking Flash and have no interest in HTML5. Let me try to break it down without taking side (not sure it is even possible for me but let's try).

You make a lot of valid points, but you didn't actually address the question that you responded to...

Flash is effectively a closed system. Only Adobe can create a Flash player. Because of this, Adobe exclusively controls the quality and availability of the Plug-in. OS X and Linux users suffered for a decade with poor plug-ins. Adobe only appears to have stepped up their game in response to Apple giving up on them. Sorry, but it's too little to late. Based on past experience, once the dust settles, I expect Adobe to again reduce support for the less popular platforms (like you said, it makes business sense). As I said before; Flash only "improves" the web if you are on the dominant OS.

Sure, standards lead to slower implementation of new features; but since the specs are open, anybody can create an HTML5 rendering engine and improve it as they see fit. Even though companies like Apple and MS are on the board for HTML, they can not deny the right of another company to create an HTML5 browser.

Sure, Flash can do many things that HTML5 can not. However for the overwhelming majority of web sites, there is no benefit to the user from only supporting Flash (please don't respond with a list of edge cases that can't be done in HTML5).

 

[mKTank]

You make a lot of valid points, but you didn't actually address the question that you responded to...

Flash is effectively a closed system. Only Adobe can create a Flash player. Because of this, Adobe exclusively controls the quality and availability of the Plug-in. OS X and Linux users suffered for a decade with poor plug-ins. Adobe only appears to have stepped up their game in response to Apple giving up on them. Sorry, but it's too little to late. Based on past experience, once the dust settles, I expect Adobe to again reduce support for the less popular platforms (like you said, it makes business sense). As I said before; Flash only "improves" the web if you are on the dominant OS.

Sure, standards lead to slower implementation of new features; but since the specs are open, anybody can create an HTML5 rendering engine and improve it as they see fit. Even though companies like Apple and MS are on the board for HTML, they can not deny the right of another company to create an HTML5 browser.

Sure, Flash can do many things that HTML5 can not. However for the overwhelming majority of web sites, there is no benefit to the user from only supporting Flash (please don't respond with a list of edge cases that can't be done in HTML5).

It indeed might be too little too late for Apple's adoption of Flash.

But the world is just getting started. Flash has never been this popular before, and it's all thanks to Apple giving it so much attention. At the same time, I realize that HTML5 is starting to be used more as well, but only for videos as far as I can tell. It's still long ways away from matching Flash when it comes to interactive menus and animations. That said, even though HTML5 IS spreading, its performance is just unbearable on the iPad. I thought I overreacted a little bit last time I whinged about the iPad's handling of HTML5, but Jesus Christ. I went onto a forum once and saw a news article about a game trailer. Opened the thread and saw an HTML5 video from YouTube. Wow, I thought. HTML5 IS spreading after all.

So I clicked on the play button. Nothing. Wait 5 seconds? Nope. Not even feedback to tell you that you pressed on the button. Maybe it didn't register my touch, let me zoom in - oh look, the browser is frozen. The video started loading after 10 seconds of staring at a frozen screen. And that's just for a 1 minute trailer from YouTube. And when it finally played, it looks like it was stuck on 240p because it looked like garbled crap. And it took, what, 20 seconds to load this crap? I remember other instances where the browser just crashed. Whereas HTML5 performance on my laptop is sufficient to indeed replace Flash (for non-HD videos (doesn't seem like HTML5 videos go up to 1080p yet, although I might be wrong)) for videos, it's just crazy bad on the iPad. I wish it's one of the things they do in iOS5.0: fixing Safari.

 

[err404]

So I clicked on the play button. Nothing. Wait 5 seconds? Nope. Not even feedback to tell you that you pressed on the button. Maybe it didn't register my touch, let me zoom in - oh look, the browser is frozen. The video started loading after 10 seconds of staring at a frozen screen. And that's just for a 1 minute trailer from YouTube. And when it finally played, it looks like it was stuck on 240p because it looked like garbled crap. And it took, what, 20 seconds to load this crap? I remember other instances where the browser just crashed. Whereas HTML5 performance on my laptop is sufficient to indeed replace Flash (for non-HD videos (doesn't seem like HTML5 videos go up to 1080p yet, although I might be wrong)) for videos, it's just crazy bad on the iPad. I wish it's one of the things they do in iOS5.0: fixing Safari.

That sounds like what I've seen from mobile Flash on comparable hardware (single core with 256MB RAM). Reasonable Flash performance in Android appears to only be just now coming with 10.2 and dual core systems. In general I find Safari performance to be decent on the iPad (not great). But I agree, Safari could certainly use optimizations in some areas. Particularly with JS heavy sites. Since the bottleneck was more then likely JS, had the video on the forum been in Flash your performance would likely have been even worse (Flash would not have prevented the HTML/JS aspects of the page from choking Safari). The beauty of HTML is that Apple (or any other vendor) has the ability to make optimizations in these areas. WebKit2 incorporates significant improvements.
As for resolution, it's defined by the host (since h.264 does not support adaptive quality). For example Youtube allows you to override the stream for high quality. HTML5 doesn't care if the video is 1080p or 240p, but the decoder itself may not be up to the task.

In about 2 hours we will know if the iPad2 has any more horse power to plow through these troublesome sites.

 

[xaquaticx]

I got a Droid 2 Global. Flash works fine on it. Even video.

Apple should allow Flash as an option, perhaps leaving it off by default.

 

[milani]

Just for the record, I have been coding HTML5 and CSS for 11 years and was among the first handful of developers to implement full CSS layout and positioning without one single tag of HTML for VH1.com almost 10 years back.

HTML5 hasn't been around for 11 years.

Corporation by definition are entities who could not care less than their bottom line. They will starve you and let you to die before to do anything just because it is good for you. I believe in products and technologies, I do not believe nor respect corporate entities, all their are good for as far as I am concerned is a signature on a check. I do not live and conduct business based on publicity ideology.

And this, of course, is precisely why Adobe cannot be trusted to be the sole proprietor of web video.

HTML has always been, along with its sister CSS, an absolute nightmare for any developer who actually goes any further than making a homepage on mac.com. I do not even find words to explain to you in non technical English how much the push of HTML5 the way Apple did it is a scam, there is absolutely no way in hell or heaven that any developer can do with HTML5 what we do with Flex and in the few cases where it is humanly possible it will be not financially viable. I can guarantee you that I will deliver with Flash a more engaging experience than any HTML and Javascript developer at 25 to 60% less time and I keep part of the saving because I create additional value compare to developers on other languages or platforms.

This is demonstratively false. The only "nightmare" has been browsers that don't support web standards (IE6, 7, and 8). And, the only reason browsers have been able to get away with not supporting web standards is because they've had the fallback of proprietary plugins like Flash. Note: now that IE9 supports open standards, we developers only have to code for basic backward compatibly and graceful degradation (something that is inherent to the relationship between HTML, CSS, and JS). As for your guarantee, it's both factually false (you're just making up numbers), and also impossible to quantify because engagement is a relative term.

It's still long ways away from matching Flash when it comes to interactive menus and animations.

"Interactive menus" and "animations" were a trend in the late 1990s that has since come to pass. The modern, open web is more concerned with efficient content delivery. That being said, HTML5 has nothing to do with interactive menus - you're thinking of javascript.

In about 2 hours we will know if the iPad2 has any more horse power to plow through these troublesome sites.

I agree with everything you said, and sure enough looks like iOS will support a new, faster JS engine. As predictable as it is exciting.

 

[flexengineer]

HTML5 hasn't been around for 11 years.And this, of course, is precisely why Adobe cannot be trusted to be the sole proprietor of web video.

I meant HTML of course and you are free to think what you want of Adobe, I said what I had to say. i just find amusing that you are always trying to challenge me on technical question, it's just laughable.

This is demonstratively false. The only "nightmare" has been browsers that don't support web standards (IE6, 7, and 8).

I guess it is false because you decided so, just wake up! If you do not consider HTML and CSS to be a nightmare then you are not building much websites or applictions which I can sense is the case of 95% of people around here. Keep talking, there will be a point very soon this year where you will understand that you are losing your time.

"Interactive menus" and "animations" were a trend in the late 1990s that has since come to pass. The modern, open web is more concerned with efficient content delivery. That being said, HTML5 has nothing to do with interactive menus - you're thinking of javascript.

I have nothing to say to that except that it is ridiculous and only shows you ignorance and lake of technical knowledge. Please, do me a favor and actually listen to all this video, you will hear engineers and product managers from VMware explain why the chose Flash and made it their new standard for the user interfaces and management console of vCould and View 4.5. Now, we are not talking about games and fart apps here, those products are used by 100% of Fortune 100 and 95% of Fortune 500. How come can a world leader in virtualization and cloud computing chose Flash for its mission critical apps if those apps can't even run on a computer according to Apple?

Here it is:
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/max-2010-develop/flex-the-new-standard-for-vmware-management-consoles-/

I agree with everything you said, and sure enough looks like iOS will support a new, faster JS engine. As predictable as it is exciting.

Apple, like everyone else, will always be years behind Adobe. If you deny that then you are delusional. JS VM has always been much slower than Flash VM and it is not going to change anything, VM2 was entirely rebuilt from the ground up and I am still waiting for a technology capable to render my graphics (including data visualization and charts) as fast as Flash! It has been 6 years and I am still waiting.

 

[BaldiMac]

Please, do me a favor and actually listen to all this video, you will hear engineers and product managers from VMware explain why the chose Flash and made it their new standard for the user interfaces and management console of vCould and View 4.5. Now, we are not talking about games and fart apps here, those products are used by 100% of Fortune 100 and 95% of Fortune 500. How come can a world leader in virtualization and cloud computing chose Flash for its mission critical apps if those apps can't even run on a computer according to Apple?

Do either of those apps run in the Flash Player plugin?

Apple, like everyone else, will always be years behind Adobe. If you deny that then you are delusional.

Huh. And I've always thought people that claim to know the future were delusional.

 

[flexengineer]

You make a lot of valid points, but you didn't actually address the question that you responded to... Flash is effectively a closed system. Only Adobe can create a Flash player. Because of this, Adobe exclusively controls the quality and availability of the Plug-in.

And what did they do with it? They revolutionized our video experience and delivered an instant on, browser based video with a quality of stream that remained unmatched even by the giant Microsoft with all its billions. Adobe delivered to the larges majority of us an improved access to video directly in the browser at a time where Microsoft and Real were fighting really hard to push their lousy desktop based marketing filled piece of crap called Real Player and Windows Media.

I did not ignore the question, I was just trying to say that as a developer, based on the type of application I develop and the expectation of my client I want to be able to rely on a technology that allows me to deliver what I'm paid for. If Adobe did not have control over the player then Flash would be the exact same mess as HTML and would have certainly not gained that level of popularity.

OS X and Linux users suffered for a decade with poor plug-ins. Adobe only appears to have stepped up their game in response to Apple giving up on them. Sorry, but it's too little to late. Based on past experience, once the dust settles, I expect Adobe to again reduce support for the less popular platforms (like you said, it makes business sense). As I said before; Flash only "improves" the web if you are on the dominant OS.

I do not think so, first of all you do not know exactly why the plugin did not perform well on Mac, you do not know what is the extend of the effort that Adobe extended to Apple. You do not know whether or not Apple did everything in its power to refrain Adobe from delivering a good experience on Mac. You do not know, I do not know for sure and all this is based on is a big mouth who spit so much garbage that turned to be lies and exaggeration that we will probably not hear him say a single word about Flash for a long time.

Sure, standards lead to slower implementation of new features; but since the specs are open, anybody can create an HTML5 rendering engine and improve it as they see fit. Even though companies like Apple and MS are on the board for HTML, they can not deny the right of another company to create an HTML5 browser..

No they can't, it's a myth... there is nothing you can do or anyone can do because at the end of the day you do not own the browser, they do. Corporation will never let standard deliver the best because it is against their interest. Just look around, look what progress Internet beside Flash has made! It's ridiculous and it's made up by the big giants.

Sure, Flash can do many things that HTML5 can not. However for the overwhelming majority of web sites, there is no benefit to the user from only supporting Flash (please don't respond with a list of edge cases that can't be done in HTML5).

I never said everything should be Flash, the menu and splash pages and all that crap tapes on my neve, it is a misuse of Flash by lazy incompetent people who do not know what they are doing and just chose Flash because it is easy and because HTML failed to deliver. I will be the happiest man on hearth when the web is going to be overloaded with HTML5 ads and scam instead of Flash because now, we are not going to have to deal for the mistake from the people at the bottom of the barrel.

Do either of those apps run in the Flash Player plugin?.

Yes, it is probably one of the largest Flash applications suite ever built and the entire user interface is made in Flash with Adobe Flex. VMware actually hired me as Flex lead to work on those projects, I am moving to Palo Alto in 2 weeks for 6 months and I actually seriously plan on bringing those app to the mobile f&c^king iPhone included and iPad! And I will be making it with Flash I can say that much.

By the way baldi, you will notice in the video that the engineers praise Adobe for allowing them to not need a Windows development environment anymore in a world where everyone use Linux, when switching to Flash VMware stopped using those PCs. I thought you would like that and it would help you believe that Adobe has been making a lot of efforts over the past year to catch up on its weaknesses.

Do either of those apps run in the Flash Player plugin? Huh. And I've always thought people that claim to know the future were delusional.

I guess we will find out very soon whether it is vision or delusion, everything I add to say on the subject is somewhere in this thread and will be easily to compare with market reality .

 

[milani]

I meant HTML of course and you are free to think what you want of Adobe, I said what I had to say. i just find amusing that you are always trying to challenge me on technical question, it's just laughable.

What is laughable is how you've consistently failed to address any of the technical points that have been raised in this thread. Don't think that people aren't aware of your fallacious argumentation.

 

[dejo]

And what did they do with it? They revolutionized our video experience and delivered an instant on, browser based video with a quality of stream that remained unmatched even by the giant Microsoft with all its billions. Adobe delivered to the larges majority of us an improved access to video directly in the browser at a time where Microsoft and Real were fighting really hard to push their lousy desktop based marketing filled piece of crap called Real Player and Windows Media.

Funny, I thought it was Macromedia that did all that.

 

[mrsir2009]

Nah flash is for windows.

 

[BaldiMac]

By the way baldi, you will notice in the video that the engineers praise Adobe for allowing them to not need a Windows development environment anymore in a world where everyone use Linux, when switching to Flash VMware stopped using those PCs. I thought you would like that and it would help you believe that Adobe has been making a lot of efforts over the past year to catch up on its weaknesses.

That's pretty funny. We've been having this discussion for almost two months. How have you missed that I don't use Flash? I did not watch a video that was only posted in Flash, and I am not excited that Flash offers development tools on other platforms. No offense! I just think it's funny.

I guess we will find out very soon whether it is vision or delusion, everything I add to say on the subject is somewhere in this thread and will be easily to compare with market reality.

The only way we would find out very soon, is if somebody passes Adobe. Because your claim was that "Apple, like everyone else, will always be years behind Adobe." "Always" is a long time to wait to prove that you are right.

 

[flexengineer]

Funny, I thought it was Macromedia that did all that.

It's actually both and equally so. I became a customer of Macromedia back in 1999 with Dreamweaver and Fireworks for HTML, CSS, PHP and a bit of ASP. I never really cared for Flash at that time and it would sometimes annoy me a great deal, however that is a long time ago and progress have been made that revolutionized our work and the application we deliver, unfortunately we can't beat Steve Jobs in the media so we are going to kick his ass on the market instead because that we can do and that we will win.

It's not until Macromedia released Flash Communication Server around 2002 that it picked my attention, because that day I was able to build a fully working live audio and video chat with awesome video quality and a very low latency (I could talk on the phone and the delay between the phone and the video was barely noticeable), hosted on my own server with full control and delivered instantly right into the browser, instantly and alway the same on all operating system and browsers combined. to put in context, we are talking about building a live A/V chat chat from scratch, server to client and back, completed in less than a day almost a decade ago. What was W3C doing then? not much as usual, too busy talking and arguing for years over a freaking text file specification called XML.

Even then I was not taking Flash seriously until Macromedia released Flex Presentation Server 1.5 in 2004, that revolutionized web user experience like never before and has remained unmatched ever since. I only started to develop with Flex for a living right after the release of ActionScript 3.0 in 2005, that was a major milestones as ActionScript became a full object oriented programming allowing developers to build large and complex, mission critical applications that look, feel and perform as good as dektop softwares but directly in the browser, instantly with no extra download, install or step.

Prior to that, ActionScript was as good as Javascript is today especially considering that AS1 was straight Javascript with a few custom tags. Now, look what the Flash Platform and ActionScript has become, then turn around and look at the good old same Javascript trying what it can.

That's pretty funny. We've been having this discussion for almost two months. How have you missed that I don't use Flash? I did not watch a video that was only posted in Flash

Oops I missed that you're right! Out of curiosity though, why would you not even try the player to see how it behaves on Linux?

I am not excited that Flash offers development tools on other platforms. No offense! I just think it's funny..

What is your point? Sorry, I am just missing it

The only way we would find out very soon, is if somebody passes Adobe. Because your claim was that "Apple, like everyone else, will always be years behind Adobe." "Always" is a long time to wait to prove that you are right.

Right, even though I was making an abstract reference to the points I made over the past couple of months. Beside, I could also argue that Flash might "very soon" surprise us with a much faster propagation on mobile, I remember the discrepancy I found between 2 sources during the conversation with you actually and you ended up claiming that I used "virtually every single" to refer to something you believe to account for only 6% or some ridiculously low number, pretty much giving me the choice between liar and mentally challenged. That is the kind of points I rather address then with numbers than now with rhetoric. I enjoy the conversation do not take me wrong but we covered every topic many times by now

 

[BaldiMac]

Oops I missed that you're right! Out of curiosity though, why would you not even try the player to see how it behaves on Linux?

Because my reasons for not using Flash have nothing to do with performance.

What is your point? Sorry, I am just missing it

My point has been that I support Apple's choice to not include the Flash Player on iOS devices, because it encourages web developers to support open standards instead of or in addition to Flash. Which means more content for me.

 

[flexengineer]

Because my reasons for not using Flash have nothing to do with performance.

I do respect that.

My point has been that I support Apple's choice to not include the Flash Player on iOS devices, because it encourages web developers to support open standards instead of or in addition to Flash. Which means more content for me.

That is fine with me, healthy competition is healthy but Apple's attack on Flash and Adobe had nothing of healthy.