Hey Apple...Adobe has learned its lesson! We want Flash

[dejo]

It's actually both and equally so. I became a customer of Macromedia back in 1999 with Dreamweaver and Fireworks for HTML, CSS, PHP and a bit of ASP. I never really cared for Flash at that time and it would sometimes annoy me a great deal, however that is a long time ago and progress have been made that revolutionized our work and the application we deliver, unfortunately we can't beat Steve Jobs in the media so we are going to kick his ass on the market instead because that we can do and that we will win.

It's not until Macromedia released Flash Communication Server around 2002 that it picked my attention, because that day I was able to build a fully working live audio and video chat with awesome video quality and a very low latency (I could talk on the phone and the delay between the phone and the video was barely noticeable), hosted on my own server with full control and delivered instantly right into the browser, instantly and alway the same on all operating system and browsers combined. to put in context, we are talking about building a live A/V chat chat from scratch, server to client and back, completed in less than a day almost a decade ago. What was W3C doing then? not much as usual, too busy talking and arguing for years over a freaking text file specification called XML.

Even then I was not taking Flash seriously until Macromedia released Flex Presentation Server 1.5 in 2004, that revolutionized web user experience like never before and has remained unmatched ever since. I only started to develop with Flex for a living right after the release of ActionScript 3.0 in 2005, that was a major milestones as ActionScript became a full object oriented programming allowing developers to build large and complex, mission critical applications that look, feel and perform as good as dektop softwares but directly in the browser, instantly with no extra download, install or step.

Prior to that, ActionScript was as good as Javascript is today especially considering that AS1 was straight Javascript with a few custom tags. Now, look what the Flash Platform and ActionScript has become, then turn around and look at the good old same Javascript trying what it can.

It's actually both and equally so? How? I don't see how any of what you say above supports your claim that Adobe "revolutionized our video experience and delivered an instant on, browser based video with a quality of stream that remained unmatched even by the giant Microsoft with all its billions" and "delivered to the larges majority of us an improved access to video directly in the browser at a time where Microsoft and Real were fighting really hard to push their lousy desktop based marketing filled piece of crap called Real Player and Windows Media". Sounds like it was all Macromedia's doing. What did Adobe do that was "equally so"?

 

[flexengineer]

It's actually both and equally so? How? I don't see how any of what you say above supports your claim that Adobe "revolutionized our video experience and delivered an instant on, browser based video with a quality of stream that remained unmatched even by the giant Microsoft with all its billions" and "delivered to the larges majority of us an improved access to video directly in the browser at a time where Microsoft and Real were fighting really hard to push their lousy desktop based marketing filled piece of crap called Real Player and Windows Media". Sounds like it was all Macromedia's doing. What did Adobe do that was "equally so"?

Macromedia did not have the weight to keep up with giants like Microsoft and Apple. That is why they sold to Adobe in 2005. The company is much better structured, with a lot more money. Adobe also spent years reaching out to the Java community and built most of the multimillion Flash developer community.

Flash owes its penetration to Macromedia and its developer fallowing to Adobe, it also owes to Adobe it's world class commercial success from consumer shipped products all the way to Fortune 100 consulting.

 

[milani]

I do respect that.

Based on your past comments it would seem that you don't.

That is fine with me, healthy competition is healthy but Apple's attack on Flash and Adobe had nothing of healthy.

Last time I checked Adobe was the one that ran crying to the press because Apple decided, for technical reasons, not to include Flash on the original iPhone. Do you honestly not expect Apple to make a public response to Adobe? If you look beyond the spin you'll see a concise list of reasons why Flash is not supported on the iPhone. Those reasons are as true today as they were in 2007.

I would argue that Apple's decision not to support Flash has had nothing but positive effects for the open web, standards adoption, and accessibility. By not supporting proprietary plugins like Flash and Silverlight, Apple has encouraged developers to pursue development roadmaps that both promote the open web and open standards, and ensure that web content is accessible (something that is not inherent to plugins) and that it enjoyes graceful degradation, ensuring that content can be consumed in a platform agnostic way.

 

[BaldiMac]

That is fine with me, healthy competition is healthy but Apple's attack on Flash and Adobe had nothing of healthy.

The "attack" consisted of:

1) Apple's choice to not allow plugins in the iOS browser.
2) An explanation to customers as to why they made the choice to not include Flash on iOS devices.
3) A short-lived policy to ban third-party development tools that was reversed after 3 or 4 months.
4) The accusation that Flash was a CPU hog. Which was absolutely true at the time.

What else was there? The nefarious motives and lies are all based on assumptions of nefarious motives and lies. Circular reasoning.

The actual, healthy competition is between iOS devices (and others) that do not support Flash and other devices that do. What's unhealthy about this competition?

 

[flexengineer]

The actual, healthy competition is between iOS devices (and others) that do not support Flash and other devices that do. What's unhealthy about this competition?

We could spend the year on this, that is what you believe and unless you are in the surrounding of Steve Jobs the value of what you have to say about the true motives, actions and consequences is about as high as anybody else.

 

[milani]

We could spend the year on this, that is what you believe and unless you are in the surrounding of Steve Jobs the value of what you have to say about the true motives, actions and consequences is about as high as anybody else.

Logical fallacy. There is no evidence of nefarious intention by Apple. It's not up to us to prove to you that their intentions were genuine - it's up to you, the one making the claim to the contrary of what is generally accepted to be true, to prove to us that there is evidence of nefarious intent.

 

[BaldiMac]

We could spend the year on this, that is what you believe and unless you are in the surrounding of Steve Jobs the value of what you have to say about the true motives, actions and consequences is about as high as anybody else. I have said it all and if you want to read it again it's on the blog and the link is in my signature.

Good one. I would think the burden of proof would be on you to prove that the actual first-hand testimony that we have that directly addresses the motives of Apple is a lie.

Anyway, even if everything that you said is completely true, how does it affect the actual competition? You seem convinced that Flash-capable devices are on the rise and poised to dominate the mobile market. How would that happen if Apple has some sort of unhealthy market power?

 

[flexengineer]

Logical fallacy. There is no evidence of nefarious intention by Apple. It's not up to us to prove to you that their intentions were genuine - it's up to you, the one making the claim to the contrary of what is generally accepted to be true, to prove to us that there is evidence of nefarious intent.

The fact that Apple abusively changed the developers term of service just a few days after Adobe released its Flash packager for iPhone speaks by itself. The fact that both EU and FTC started a join investigation a few months later and as we all know Apple decided to reverse the change with not a word more than 37 word on a press release. Believe what you want but do not attack me or my believes unless you actually brings something to the conversation.

Anyway, even if everything that you said is completely true, how does it affect the actual competition? You seem convinced that Flash-capable devices are on the rise and poised to dominate the mobile market. How would that happen if Apple has some sort of unhealthy market power?

Apple had a 6 month or a year window of opportunity, they almost pull it off and probably would have if it was not for Google. Now it's over and done with, Apple played its hand and now it is Adobe's turn.

 

[BaldiMac]

The fact that Apple abusively changed the developers term of service just a few days after Adobe released its Flash packager for iPhone speaks by itself. The fact that both EU and FTC started a join investigation a few months later and as we all know Apple decided to reverse the change with not a word more than 37 word on a press release. Believe what you want but do not attack me or my believes unless you actually brings something to the conversation.

I thought we both agreed that this situation was over in a few months and had no significant impact on the market. Why do you keep bringing it up?

And it doesn't disprove Apple's stated reason for not allowing third-party development tools. Possibly, they did not completely consider the legal ramifications. The EU and FTC brought up concerns. Apple changed the policy. No evil intent is proven.

Apple had a 6 month or a year window of opportunity, they almost pull it off and probably would have if it was not for Google. Now it's over and done with, Apple played its hand and now it is Adobe's turn.

Sounds like the competitive market succeeded. Nothing unhealthy there. And when exactly was this 6-12 month window?

 

[flexengineer]

I thought we both agreed that this situation was over in a few months and had no significant impact on the market. Why do you keep bringing it up?

I most likely agreed that it is coming to an end, that does not mean I do not strongly believe that the intention was wrong, the conduct was wrong and it did harm Adobe, it did hurt a lot of us developers just not very long.

And it doesn't disprove Apple's stated reason for not allowing third-party development tools. Possibly, they did not completely consider the legal ramifications. The EU and FTC brought up concerns. Apple changed the policy. No evil intent is proven.

It will hit the fan eventually, just watch the stock through the year.

 

[milani]

The fact that Apple abusively changed the developers term of service just a few days after Adobe released its Flash packager for iPhone speaks by itself. The fact that both EU and FTC started a join investigation a few months later and as we all know Apple decided to reverse the change with not a word more than 37 word on a press release. Believe what you want but do not attack me or my believes unless you actually brings something to the conversation.

Yet again, you're confusing two unrelated issues. This thread is about Adobe's Flash player plugin, not cross-compilers, of which Adobe is one of several players. The EU and the FTC are not investigating Apple's legitimate, technical, and altogether unsurprising decision not to include proprietary plugins like Flash (and Silverlight, Active-X, and hundreds of others) on the iPhone.

It will hit the fan eventually, just watch the stock through the year.

No, in all likelihood Apple's decision to exclude proprietary plugins will probably not have any measurable effect on stock prices. Consumers do not care about Flash player, per se. They care about consuming their content. Apple's decision not to support proprietary plugins like Flash player means that content providers will pursue alternative methods of content delivery - in some cases that will mean deploying a standards-compliant web app, while in other cases that will mean building a native app. The absence of Flash on the iPhone is becoming less and less pronounced as more content providers shift to standards-compliant web apps or native apps for iOS.

 

[dejo]

It will hit the fan eventually, just watch the stock through the year.

So, you're saying the stock price will be an indication of Apple's evil intent in this regard?

The EU and the FTC are not investigating Apple's legitimate, technical, and altogether unsurprising decision not to include proprietary plugins like Flash (and Silverlight, Active-X, and hundreds of others) on the iPhone.

Yeah, I always find it concerning when people say they want the "full web", by which they actually just mean "what Mobile Safari currently allows + Flash" and don't give two hoots about any other plugins.

 

[flexengineer]

So, you're saying the stock price will be an indication of Apple's evil intent in this regard?

Yes.

 

[milani]

No, I just believe that no matter how this story ends it is back firing at Apple and there is no such thing as "no sign significant impact". Feel free to accept the treatment but let me deal with it my way.

If you must deal with it in your own way please do it elsewhere. You've been presented with reasons that validate Apple's decision ad nauseam. You never acknowledge or address any of the points presented to you, but rather you simply fall back on fallacious argumentation and rhetoric. I think we've all had enough, thanks.

 

[chr]

So what's the reaction to this news?

I'd like to see the people who have argued that iOS needs to have Flash (i.e. Flexengineer) respond to this, since it seems pretty pretty telling with regards to the future of Flash.

 

[Havas]

So what's the reaction to this news?

I'd like to see the people who have argued that iOS needs to have Flash (i.e. Flexengineer) respond to this, since it seems pretty pretty telling with regards to the future of Flash.

It is a stroke of genius thats what it is. See until now as the owner of a design studio our clients were torn between the coolness of flash sites or the plain ugliness and high cost of html even though the majority went for Flex sites we earn less money because the other part go for html.

Well thanks to Adobe now we can build even more Flash driven sites and just convert them to HTML I love Adobe more everyday. More money for me! We make almost double he money building Flex sites then HTML because the resource is much rarer, a huge majority of banks, corporate organisation, trading company and online gaming industry is doing a medium to massive Flex project which means it's hard as hell to get enough skilled people, but I already have a few in house so I'm good

Have you seen Flash 11? We have been playing with it, it's so going to rock.

 

[flexengineer]

Anyway, even if everything that you said is completely true, how does it affect the actual competition? You seem convinced that Flash-capable devices are on the rise and poised to dominate the mobile market. How would that happen if Apple has some sort of unhealthy market power?

It's now outdated, Apple did not pull it and now does not have the power anymore, the window of opportunity was short.

No, in all likelihood Apple's decision to exclude proprietary plugins will probably not have any measurable effect on stock prices. Consumers do not care about Flash player, per se.

That is where you, and Steve Jobs are mistaking. Time will tell, I believe Apple is isolating itself because HTML5 is not going to catch up with Flash and the iPhone web experience might become very boring. XOOM was just updated today with Flash Player 10.2, let's see who wins based on merit this time, not PR:

http://www.devicemag.com/2011/03/11...date-tonight-to-add-adobe-flash-10-2-support/

And even on the PR ground...

Colbert on iPad 2 - "It has dual-core A5 CPU! That means it can not run Flash nine times faster!"
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376563/march-07-2011/stephen-wants-an-ipad-2

So what's the reaction to this news?

I'd like to see the people who have argued that iOS needs to have Flash (i.e. Flexengineer) respond to this, since it seems pretty pretty telling with regards to the future of Flash.

It is a good thing, all uses cases such as annoying ads and animations are now being dumped to HTML5 and Flash can focus on the serious stuff, like the native 3D engine coming up in Flash Player 11. The mistake you make I believe is to see Flash as nothing more than moving things around. There is way more to Flash that HTML5 will ever be able to achieve.

 

[ajohnson253]

All I know is if it runs anything like it were to like it did on my mbp last night. Then I don't want it.

 

[Eric374]

All I know is if it runs anything like it were to like it did on my mbp last night. Then I don't want it.

Same here. It's been my experience that Flash is the #1 reason for browser crashes and lockups. Web pages take forever to load or just lock up completely and all the busy flashing adds give me a headache. As far as I'm concerned, it's junk code that's had it's time and needs to be replaced. If, for some God-forsaken reason it does come to iDevices, I hope there's a way to disable it completely. It doesn't matter if I go to a site with a Windows computer or a Mac, all it does is slow down the whole browser. Thank God for add ons like Flashblock and NoScript.

No thanks.

 

[patent10021]

I just saw Flash running on a Droid X. Very impressive!...SNIP...Until then it sure would be nice to view Flash websites!

I just saw flash not running on my iPhone. Very impressive.

If you can't live without heavy design sites that take 30 sec to a minute to load and have no practical use other than to serve as eye-candy, can't live without porn banners and other wonderful things like that then you should buy a Droid.


.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's now outdated, Apple did not pull it and now does not have the power anymore, the window of opportunity was short.

You responded to my question before with this same answer. I then asked you when this mythical window of opportunity actually was. Are you going to answer this time?

But you seem to have forgotten the context of this part of the discussion. Your claim of unhealthy competition. If Apple's advantage was temporary, with a short window of opportunity, it hurts your argument. In the US, at least, significant and durable market power is required for antitrust actions. Not temporary advantages.

 

[milani]

That is where you, and Steve Jobs are mistaking. Time will tell, I believe Apple is isolating itself because HTML5 is not going to catch up with Flash and the iPhone web experience might become very boring. XOOM was just updated today with Flash Player 10.2, let's see who wins based on merit this time, not PR: ...

I thought you would have learned from your timeout. No one is convinced by your fallacious argumentation and rhetoric, which has been disproved ad nauseam.

 

[err404]

It is a good thing, all uses cases such as annoying ads and animations are now being dumped to HTML5 and Flash can focus on the serious stuff, like the native 3D engine coming up in Flash Player 11. The mistake you make I believe is to see Flash as nothing more than moving things around. There is way more to Flash that HTML5 will ever be able to achieve.

Flash is potentially very powerful and I agree that there are cases where it can replace traditional software delivery methods in order to provide robust cross platform functionality that is beyond what HTML5 can offer.

While I can't speak for all users; despite it's power, Flash is not enhancing my browsing experience. Franky I don't want sites to be mini-apps with flashy animated UIs. I want my browser to have predictable UI conventions that deliver content in an efficient and compatible way. Flash being capable of doing more then HTML is irrelevant so long as HTML can do the things that are important to my browsing experience.
Playing a game or managing a remote system are not functions that I need from my browser. There is no shortage of Apps that provide either of these functions on iOS devices.

For me the argument is about where functionality belongs within your system. For me, I don't believe that advanced Flash applications improve my browsing experience; therefore it doesn't belong as a required plug-in. I don't need or want my browser to be an OS onto itself (unless you're looking at Google's ChromeOS ).

The ease of use and cross-platform portability provided by the Flash Dev tools can still be leveraged in the iOS ecosystem in the form of 'native' iOS apps.

 

[Sdahe]

I hate flash anyway!... it's very time consuming when you need to to something in Flash.. I hate it

 

[Cortezbanks]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

Do not want flash