How is Mac OS X 10.7 Lion ..?

[Cinder6]

Disagree; I does take a fair amount of work. A novice or casual user who previously used Snow Leopard and wants to return some of Lion's changes has to do a bit of Web reading in order to discover tools like Lion Tweaks and OnyX. Also not everybody is knowledgeable or comfortable with using Terminal.

Many of us would need only a of hours to find what we need. Other users may not even know in which direction to head. That is a serious problem. Fortunately for Apple there are millions of new users who have never used Snow Leopard and don't know what OS X has lost.

Since when does disabling auto-resume or natural scrolling require Terminal or Onyx? What UI changes are you making that requires more advanced tools?

2. The Launch Pad, IMHO, is just plain stupid looking. It's easy enough to just ignore it, but once again, what was the dock for? Is the future going to do away with the dock so the computer acts like a phone? ReallY?? I place this right up there with Microsoft's "Bob", for those of you who remember that.

3. Modification to the way Finder presents data. I used to sort my files alphabetized by type. All of a sudden the files are subdivided into new types by broken segments, with a squirly looking "paging icons" that force the user to "page through" what isn't shown. This was, without a doubt, the most ridiculous looking thing I've ever seen on any operating system. When I visited a MicroCenter recently and went to their Apple section and there were a couple of boys, probably in there late teens, using a demo MacBook Pro, and ridiculing it loudly and openly. "Wow!! Look how stupid this is!!" I went over to look over their shoulders to see what they were looking at, and indeed, it was this "improvement" that had turned what was once the most respected OS on the planet into, apparently, a source of ridicule.

Once again, this can be overcome by clicking on some of the new arrangement options, but why did I need to "relearn" this anyway??? I used to be able to open a Finder window, scroll through it since the icons themselves typically identified the type, and find what I needed. A few clicks. Using this "improved" interface, I need to scroll through the types, find the type, and then scroll through the files or expand the "paging icon" to see the full list of files. It makes no sense. Finding what I wanted used to be quick and obvious, now it's annoying, stupid looking, and often takes numerous selections and clicks. This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen on an OS. My first reaction was "Are these guys actually trying to annoy me???"

4. Shades of gray vs. color. Selections aren't highlighted in color any more, they're grayed out. It's not a big deal, but normally graying something out represents it being disabled.

2. So don't use it. It's the most optional new feature in the OS. It doesn't interfere with or change anything you do. Move it off your dock and forget about it.

3. What are you even talking about? "All My Files", that optional thing that replaced nothing? Disable it and move on. Even with it enabled, it's not an encumbrance because the old ways of viewing files are all still plainly visible. I'll agree it's a useless feature, but saying Lion is horrible because of it is hyperbole.

4. Not sure what you mean here. When I select a file in Finder or anything else, it's selected blue, just as it always has been.

 

[Mackilroy]

This in OS that now demands I enter my password to move items in and out of the Application folder or Library

That isn't limited to Lion. I've had to do that with both Leopard and Snow Leopard as well.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Probably the idea is to have a consistent user interface and experience across all devices. FWIW, I find Unity far more annoying than Lion. At least you don't have to use Launchpad if you don't want to. Windows Metro is potentially the most annoying of all as it makes a computer single tasking. At least with Lion you don't have to use Full Screen mode.

I think we cant compare Lion being the same as windows 8 or even Linux with unity or Gnome 3 shell. Don't consider Lion all that iOS tablet like except launchpad.

Windows obviously is the most tablet like with Metro. Linux with ubuntu using unity by default and Gnome 3 with a simular feel.

Lion has an app launcher that has an iOS feel but thats about it. Plus I think Apple has it right using separate OS's for tablets and one for desktop/laptops.

 

[talmy]

Lion has an app launcher that has an iOS feel but thats about it. Plus I think Apple has it right using separate OS's for tablets and one for desktop/laptops.

Autosave and resume are features from iOS, as are some of the memory/processor management techniques (applications being silently shut down only to restart when you go to them).

Internally the OSes are very similar (after all, Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone saying that it ran OS X) with OS X being more feature rich and the user interface layer being totally different.

Microsoft (and Ubuntu and Gnome) are indeed doing it wrong by having one user interface for both touch oriented and keyboard/mouse oriented use. Thats also a factor in the old Pen Computing version of Windows being so dreadful.

 

[pooryou]

I won't be moving to Lion until I can disable this autosave/versions junk.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Autosave and resume are features from iOS, as are some of the memory/processor management techniques (applications being silently shut down only to restart when you go to them).

Internally the OSes are very similar (after all, Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone saying that it ran OS X) with OS X being more feature rich and the user interface layer being totally different.

Microsoft (and Ubuntu and Gnome) are indeed doing it wrong by having one user interface for both touch oriented and keyboard/mouse oriented use. Thats also a factor in the old Pen Computing version of Windows being so dreadful.

We can even go so far as Final Cut Pro X uses AV foundation that is used in iOS, but I think its more an application then OS change.

But even with some of the features from iOS being added to Mac OSX Lion it still has the look and feel of Mac OSX and not iOS. Besides the launchpad addition.

 

[Gomff]

An architect friend who is slightly senior in years was marvelling at my 5 year old Macbook Pro the other day (it has been well looked after and still very useful). He's got some horrible old Hewlett Packard plastic monstrosity that he lugs around which is just as old but is shockingly slow because of crapware and Windows registry clog.

Anyway, he said he wanted to buy a new computer and asked if he should get a Mac. For the first time in years I said no, and that he'd be better off getting a high end PC laptop like a Vaio Z series. I based my answer solely on the fact that he'd have to deal with Lion, and specifically Versions. He's an old school architect that started off as a draughtsman who adapted to Windows and AutoCAD because he had to, but still views computers as a necessary evil. I had visions of trying to explain the mechanisms of Versions to him and how it was implemented in some apps but not others, and the whole "This is how you do the equivelent as Save As" deal and felt embarrassed.

I just can't recommend OS X like I used to up until Snow Leopard, especially for professionals. I know for some people it's not a big issue but for others it's a deal breaker.

I would throw a party if Apple gave us the option to not use it.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Anyway, he said he wanted to buy a new computer and asked if he should get a Mac. For the first time in years I said no, and that he'd be better off getting a high end PC laptop like a Vaio Z series. I based my answer solely on the fact that he'd have to deal with Lion, and specifically Versions.

I think new users to Mac would have a much easier transition then perhaps someone who been using it for years, other then the fact is a new operating system. Once you also consider the "I don't like change factor" into the mix.

Same thing I encountered with the Youtube crowd with the new user interface, which I thought was much improved. Usually the "Why can't I have the same look since 1997"

 

[talmy]

He's an old school architect that started off as a draughtsman who adapted to Windows and AutoCAD because he had to, but still views computers as a necessary evil. I had visions of trying to explain the mechanisms of Versions to him and how it was implemented in some apps but not others, and the whole "This is how you do the equivelent as Save As" deal and felt embarrassed.

For someone who is truly "old school" you are explaining the wrong thing. There's no such thing as "Save as" in the physical world. However there is a "Duplicate." Explain to him how to duplicate a drawing when you have a "Duplicate" command compared to duplicating a drawing with "Save as".

"Save as" is a mystifying process. The original file becomes a new one and the old one disappears? If you want to go back to it you need to reopen it? With a copy machine I've got both the original and the duplicate in my hands with nothing put away.

The shortcoming with Lion is that only some applications work the new way which makes it confusing if you have to use both types. But the "new way" has actually been around for many years. There is a Duplicate command in Finder, Aperture, iMovie, and Adobe Bridge for years. I had autosave in WordPerfect back in the 1980's, and most database programs have done this for decades.

 

[Gomff]

I think new users to Mac would have a much easier transition then perhaps someone who been using it for years, other then the fact is a new operating system. Once you also consider the "I don't like change factor" into the mix.

Same thing I encountered with the Youtube crowd with the new user interface, which I thought was much improved. Usually the "Why can't I have the same look since 1997"

I don't think you can trivialise Versions by comparing it to something much less significant such as the new Youtube interface.....The two things are completely different.

For me, Versions isn't just a different way of doing file management. It's an enforced, inferior, change for change's sake feature that is less efficient and more complex.

 

[Krazy Bill]

Save as" is a mystifying process.

Why is it so mystical? Especially after all these years? (decades). "Save as" implies you want to either save it with a different name or as a different file type. I don't think anyone (except you?) ever had problems with this. As it is now with the new "Duplicate" command in Lion, Apple was forced to add yet another option called "Export". (How does your copy machine metaphor hold up to that one?)

The shortcoming with Lion is that only some applications work the new way which makes it confusing if you have to use both types.

No. The real shortcoming is some dumb-assed coder decided to fix something that wasn't broke.

You can put all the lipstick on this you want but seriously... there are other ways to implement automatic document and version saving without this nonsense.

 

[Gomff]

For someone who is truly "old school" you are explaining the wrong thing. There's no such thing as "Save as" in the physical world. However there is a "Duplicate." Explain to him how to duplicate a drawing when you have a "Duplicate" command compared to duplicating a drawing with "Save as".

"Save as" is a mystifying process. The original file becomes a new one and the old one disappears? If you want to go back to it you need to reopen it? With a copy machine I've got both the original and the duplicate in my hands with nothing put away.

The shortcoming with Lion is that only some applications work the new way which makes it confusing if you have to use both types. But the "new way" has actually been around for many years. There is a Duplicate command in Finder, Aperture, iMovie, and Adobe Bridge for years. I had autosave in WordPerfect back in the 1980's, and most database programs have done this for decades.

I've been through this argument before and I don't have the will to do it again. I don't mean to be rude, but to some people who work on iterative creative projects, "Save As" is the most efficient, fire proof way to create a new iteration of a drawing, model, document, image or whatever else, whilst being certain that you preserve a previous version as a separate entity. I agree that not everybody needs this but some can't live without it, whilst others don't want to have to change the way they work just because Apple says so.

Save As is not a mystifying process....Saying that it is seems like a buy in to the hype to me. It has worked for literally decades and is simpler than Duplicate -> Close original document -> Save duplicate with different name to achieve exactly the same thing.

As for Versions not being implemented in every application, all I can say is thank the lord. If that day came I would no longer go anywhere near a Mac again. Putting the issues with corruption and incompatibility with other file systems aside for a moment, you would still have to contend with the inconvenience of somehow determining which iteration you wanted to revert to out of countless possibilities. Doing this with a 40 page document is bad enough but doing it with a complex 3D scene or a Logic Pro song file is something else entirely.

If you're happy with versions then good for you. I'm not suggesting that you should be deprived of it if you genuinely prefer it. But forcing people who hate it to use it is another thing entirely. Combined with the other things like dropping Rosetta, bigger system overhead, software incompatibilities, iOS features that make no sense on a workstation and trying to change the way I've used a mouse for decades, Lion for me is just a bag of hurt.

 

[tkermit]

Why is it so mystical? Especially after all these years? (decades). "Save as" implies you want to either save it with a different name or as a different file type. I don't think anyone (except you?) ever had problems with this.

It's a more abstract concept. You have to think about the state of the file (on disk) as separate from the state of the document you're working on. You can open a file and change the document without the underlying file changing, then tell the system that the changed document should become a new file...

With Autosave&Versions, whatever changes you make to a document are reflected in the document as well as in the file. The need to even make a distinction here is largely eliminated. Naturally, when you want to start working on a new file with the contents of another document, you need to either duplicate the original document first, or export its contents.

 

[ahdfox]

Lion makes some big changes in some people's workflows.

If you use the filesystem to manage document versions, Lion breaks more than 25 years of tradition, expectations, and processes. It offers Autosave and Versions to replace that, but for me, that's not a useful replacement (don't always want to save, and documents too complex to differentiate much using versions)-- and there are a bunch of missing keyboard shortcuts.

Get a Lion machine and try to search by filename in the Finder. See for yourself.

All the above has me going back to 10.6, and getting rid of my new Lion-locked iMac and getting a slightly older refurb that came with Snow Leopard. First time I've ever taken a Mac back; couldn't believe it but the Autosave/Versions/Revert workflow in it's current implementation is a deal breaker for me. Autosave on/off switch by App, restored keyboard shortcuts, and some serious bug fixes and I'd be on the Lion bandwagon in a day.

 

[WSR]

Simply put, "Save As..." offers a single location to change the filename, file location, and also the file type. Duplicate only duplicates.

 

[tkermit]

Simply put, "Save As..." offers a single location to change the filename, file location, and also the file type. Duplicate only duplicates.

Regardless of whether you have used "Save As..." or "Duplicate", at some point you'll close the new document, at which point Lion will automatically ask you to provide "filename, file location, and also the file type".

 

[talmy]

Save As is not a mystifying process....Saying that it is seems like a buy in to the hype to me. It has worked for literally decades and is simpler than Duplicate -> Close original document -> Save duplicate with different name to achieve exactly the same thing.

I could argue the same thing for Duplicate. It's simpler than Save As because to get the same results with save as you need to:

1. If the document hasn't been saved, then save it first, otherwise the changes to the original document will be lost.
1. Come up with the name and location for the new file. (You can defer this decision for days if you wish if you use Duplicate)
2. Do the Save As.
3. Find and open the original file.

Or you can usually duplicate the document without Save As (or Duplicate):

1. Command-A, Command-C to copy the entire contents to the clipboard.
2. Open a new document.
3. Command-V to paste into the new document.

Or you can use the duplicate command in Finder. If you aren't in Lion remember to save the original first, otherwise you are duplicating the original file and not the current document state.

I'd say that Duplicate is a far faster way to duplicate a document than Save-As or copy and paste of the contents.

 

[Beezzy]

I love Lion. Its a very powerful OS. I use BootCamp for certain programs and it makes things very easy.

 

[Gomff]

I could argue the same thing for Duplicate. It's simpler than Save As because to get the same results with save as you need to:

1. If the document hasn't been saved, then save it first, otherwise the changes to the original document will be lost.
1. Come up with the name and location for the new file. (You can defer this decision for days if you wish if you use Duplicate)
2. Do the Save As.
3. Find and open the original file.

Or you can usually duplicate the document without Save As (or Duplicate):

1. Command-A, Command-C to copy the entire contents to the clipboard.
2. Open a new document.
3. Command-V to paste into the new document.

Or you can use the duplicate command in Finder. If you aren't in Lion remember to save the original first, otherwise you are duplicating the original file and not the current document state.

I'd say that Duplicate is a far faster way to duplicate a document than Save-As or copy and paste of the contents.

Except I don't work like that.

I use Save As when I have opened an existing file which I have modified but still want to preserve in it's previous unmodified state, in case the changes I'm making don't work out. At which point, I use Save As and choose a filename, which instantly gives me a new iteration that I know is no longer affecting the previous file.

Anyway, like I said, I don't have the will to go through all of this again. Really, if you like Versions then great but I hate it and I know I'm not alone. Lets just agree to differ.

 

[TheBSDGuy]

Since when does disabling auto-resume or natural scrolling require Terminal or Onyx? What UI changes are you making that requires more advanced tools?



2. So don't use it. It's the most optional new feature in the OS. It doesn't interfere with or change anything you do. Move it off your dock and forget about it.

3. What are you even talking about? "All My Files", that optional thing that replaced nothing? Disable it and move on. Even with it enabled, it's not an encumbrance because the old ways of viewing files are all still plainly visible. I'll agree it's a useless feature, but saying Lion is horrible because of it is hyperbole.

4. Not sure what you mean here. When I select a file in Finder or anything else, it's selected blue, just as it always has been.

Item 2: I don't use it and doubt I ever will.

Item 3: Probably a semantics problem. When I refer to "all my files" I'm not referring to a feature, I'm referring to an actual reference of all the files that exist in a directory. For example, if I double click on my user directory, in previous versions of the OS, if I had selected to order the appearance by type there weren't any separators (lines) and there wasn't, for lack of better words, a "paging icon" that forced me to page through the files one by one to get what I needed. I now get these stupid looking "separators" between each type, then followed by the "file expansion icon" that one can page, and page, and page through to find a file, or do yet another click to expand the view to show what was there. Click here, click there, click, click everywhere. This is the feature that my original post identified as one used by a few people (probably Microsoft addicts) to ridicule the OS. I used to be able to simple double click on the folder, scroll down, and then double click on what I wanted. This is stupid and poorly thought out. It's as if the "eye candy" of needing to click on endless "paging icons" is supposed to impress me. It doesn't. It's an entertaining feature, once or twice, then it's aggravating. This feature **can** be overridden, but once again, reset this, reset that. This is stupid!

Item 4: I'm not talking about file selection in Finder, I'm talking about option selection in applications. For example, click on "Desktop and Screen Saver" under "System Preferences." You will be greeted with what's called a "tabbed window." You click on the tab, which in all previous versions of the OS had the currently selected option as either Graphite or Aqua, and then click on the another tab (light gray background/black text) to alter it. The "grayed out" selection isn't active. In Lion the highlighted selection is a darker shade of gray instead of Aqua/Graphite, but it's still gray. By default, most OSes would identify this as a "non-option." Not a big deal, as one can easily learn to adjust to it, but it's very, very poorly thought out.

One of the reasons I've always hated Microsoft products was because every time they had a new release it was a can of worms for users. "All you need to do to get this option running the way you like it is to control-click-F5 and then you can modify this....all you need to do to restore this feature is visit the site www.godhelpme.com, visit the link called 'what the H*ll are these bozos doing' and read the 20 page document on configuration... all you need to do is download and read the 657 page document on administering our systems, and if none of this helps, ... all you need to do is call tech support at Microsoft and they'll be sure to have you up and running before the start of the next millenia."

"All you need to do" translates to "you need to waste your time correcting our errors, miscues, or poor judgement." It's as if Apple is now following the Microsoft management model.

No, I'm not impressed!

 

[tkermit]

Item 4: I'm not talking about file selection in Finder, I'm talking about option selection in applications. For example, click on "Desktop and Screen Saver" under "System Preferences." You will be greeted with what's called a "tabbed window." You click on the tab, which in all previous versions of the OS had the currently selected option as either Graphite or Aqua, and then click on the another tab (light gray background/black text) to alter it. The "grayed out" selection isn't active. In Lion the highlighted selection is a darker shade of gray instead of Aqua/Graphite, but it's still gray. By default, most OSes would identify this as a "non-option." Not a big deal, as one can easily learn to adjust to it, but it's very, very poorly thought out.

fwiw, as Macrumors reported, this is actually much improved over the beta. The proposed slider-solution seemed ridiculously counterintuitive, but now that it looks like a three-dimensional pressed button, it should be fairly clear which tab is active.

 

[The Phazer]

I think new users to Mac would have a much easier transition then perhaps someone who been using it for years, other then the fact is a new operating system. Once you also consider the "I don't like change factor" into the mix.

Quite the opposite, because new users to the Mac will be coming from Windows, where the file system paradigm is exactly the same as Snow Leopard and completely different from Lion.

Phazer

 

[linuxcooldude]

Quite the opposite, because new users to the Mac will be coming from Windows, where the file system paradigm is exactly the same as Snow Leopard and completely different from Lion.

Phazer

Considering all new computers are sold with Lion and can't run Leopard Snow should not be an issue. Other then buying used.

 

[Gomff]

Considering all new computers are sold with Lion and can't run Leopard Snow should not be an issue. Other then buying used.

I think you've missed Phazer's point completely. It's totally an issue because Lion uses a different file system paradigm to Windows and the problem is in fact exacerbated by the inability to use an OS that has the same file system paradigm, namely Snow Leopard.

 

[tkermit]

Lion uses a different file system paradigm to Windows

As far as I can tell, Windows (8) seems to be adopting Autosave with Metro apps as well. iPhone and iPad users are also used to documents autosaving. I don't see this as an issue in the future. You also have to consider that most (regular) users try to stay as far away from the file system and document management as possible.

Does anyone seriously expect the majority of users to still be saving manually in a few years?