HP Music Player and Music Store

[IlluminatedSage]

Yes, Apple may have the best mp3 player, the ipod, but it is NOT compatible with any of the other competing music services.

best way for apple to protect its sales, make it also compatible with Window protected audio files also.

otherwise, they are going to lose out on sales.

 

[QuiteSure]

Originally posted by TyleRomeo
imimtation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Tyler

And compmetition is great for the consumer.

 

[bellychris]

competition is a good thing

alot of people i know still have windows 98... even though it may be a step backwards maybe they should consider writing for this os

 

[bousozoku]

Considering that HP has already had an ethernet-connected music server device for approximately two years, they might be a little more knowledgeable about the situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if they do as well as Apple in the industry. I never would have expected a computer company to sell reasonably good cameras, but HP does.

I would expect that HP would take an Apple attitude and only support their own player. In any case, I see HP and Apple standing at the end.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
does anyone honestly think they can make money with this many people in the market? What's gonna make any one of these services so good that people will choose it over another?

1) HP is not making a new service. They are rebranding MusicMatch (just like Dell does, despite earlier disavowals of any Dell/MM relationship).

2) The Service is jut there to give buyers of the HP device a link into a music store (which won't be filled with Dell and Samsung and Apple device ads).

Like Apple, HP will make the money off the device, not the service.

Unlike Apple, there is a little real competition (MusicMatch vs Napster and BuyMusic) and a lot of "fake" competition (the various rebrands of MusicMatch) in music download services compatible with the HP player, plus they are using a format at least passingly familiar to their target audience (Windows Media - "It has Windows in the Name so it's Gotta Be Good!" vs AAC - "AA what?")

On the other hand, unlike Apple's AAC, WMA files are great and proven virus propagation devices, but most of the public doesn't know that.

Not sure if this is good or not: HP's player is content-compatible with players from a dozen other companies, at every imaginable price point. Apple's player is not.

Contrasting this to Dell: the main problem with Dell (besides the clunky interface IMHO) is that people can't play with Dell devices in a store and then make a quasi-impulse buy. HP is one of the "quality" brands at chains like Best Buy (hook=eMachines price; sell=HP,Sony), which might just get thrown into that shopping cart next to the TV and universal remote.

 

[jouster]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Could it be the same company that "ignited the personal computer revolution" and is still alive today with a reputation for innovation and building solid products?

Could it be the same company that first made USB, Firewire, 802.11 and Bluetooth central parts of it's product line? Or where you referring to the Centronix port?

Get off the proprietary kick.

What the author meant is that HP has brand recognition, which is useful. It's a respected brand, which is also useful.

My added comment is that they're competing against MS by selling MS products (WMA, XP), which is foolish.

Yes, course it is Apple. But you miss my point: I am certainly not trying to condemn, but rather already fear that they will be unable to maintain their lead by locking iPod users out of WMA. If PC manufacturers (HP or whoever) bundle a music download service, there will be far too many Windows users who will never use iTunes - they simply don't care what music store they use, indeed, they may not be aware there is a choice.

Apple is, to an extent, caught between a rock and a hard place, as making iTunes WMA aware will probably reduce sales of iPods.

Sure, Apple made all those things you mention first, but who cares? Everyone uses them now, and Apple has not benefitted in any way from being first. And doesn't that go some way to proving my point? Precisely because Apple did not keep things like 1394 proprietary, it is now popular.

I'm afraid I can't get off the 'proprietary kick' because I think it poses a real threat to the iPod's dominance. With the iPod so cool and popular right now, it seems hard to believe that it might fall to a niche position. I mean, that has never happened to Apple, right?

 

[the_mole1314]

Well, right around when MTV, HP, Dell, and others launch theirs, iTMS and Pepsi and mabey McDonald's will already have a promotional campaign going, so even if it did become pre loaded with a purchase, people will download/install iTunes for the free music.

As I've said before, Apple needs to recognize WMA, but treat it as another format that they'll support, not adopt. Make it so Dell, Samsung, and others would have no clame to the 'can only work with iTunes' debates. Apple wants iTunes to be the hub. People get to it through converting of WMA files, free songs, and promotions. They exit the hub (hopefully Apple thinks) with an iPod.

 

[kidA]

Originally posted by emanu
I don't think so. WMP is standard on PC boxes not iTunes or Quicktime. PC users allways use what they have and don't even look at the alternative solutions. It's the same thing once again. PC users already think WMP is a standard not AAC.
With HP joining the game, it's only reinforce this sentiment.

that's sort of a blanket statement. .wma is becoming a standard whether we mac folks like it or not. MS developed it but they license it out. other companies use it and make players for it. .mp3 had the same origins except it came from fraunhofer and not microsoft. i wouldn't, as a mac user, accuse PC users of always using what their given, either. that seems hypocritical since, as mac users, we're given itunes, iphoto, imovie, and now safari, among others. and how many of us use what we're given on the mac without really even caring what alternatives are out there? almost all i would guess--this discussion does involve iTunes, right?

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by jouster
Yes, course it is Apple. But you miss my point: I am certainly not trying to condemn, but rather already fear that they will be unable to maintain their lead by locking iPod users out of WMA. If PC manufacturers (HP or whoever) bundle a music download service, there will be far too many Windows users who will never use iTunes - they simply don't care what music store they use, indeed, they may not be aware there is a choice.

Apple is, to an extent, caught between a rock and a hard place, as making iTunes WMA aware will probably reduce sales of iPods.

How about this. The only goal is to sell iPods, right? You do that by making sure that they can do everything that their users want them to do. This will include (and does now) the ability to pay WMA files, especially if you're targetting Windows users. So add that ability to the iPod.

Now take iTunes. You want it to be able to play any and all music, right? So let it play WMA files as well. This allows people with substantial ripped collections (many Windows users) or purchased songs (people who won't throw them away and rebuy in AAC) to use iTunes, and hopefully sync to their new iPod. This is a good thing.

Last, look at iTMS. This is where you stay with AAC. This means that while your device plays all formats, people who buy from iTMS can only ever play on an iPod. This keeps lock-in for your iTMS customers - which is the whole point of the iTMS existing.

Seriously though, Apple had better have a better business plan in mind than relying on "coolness" (always fickle) and the iTMS lockin. After all, when you can buy competitive products like the Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra 40gb for $250 (with free noise-cancelling headphones), you need an awful lot of "cool" to cancel it out - especially when its gift-giving season and the purchaser isn't necessarily computer-savvy (or made of money).

Apple's done this before - start with a product that's 5 times as good as the competition (for double the price) and end up with a product that's 25% better than the competition (for double the price). Competing on "vendor lock-in" is bad for the consumers here.

-Richard

 

[kidA]

Originally posted by the_mole1314
As I've said before, Apple needs to recognize WMA, but treat it as another format that they'll support, not adopt. Make it so Dell, Samsung, and others would have no clame to the 'can only work with iTunes' debates. Apple wants iTunes to be the hub. People get to it through converting of WMA files, free songs, and promotions. They exit the hub (hopefully Apple thinks) with an iPod.

this is the truth. apple needs to recognize and support .wma but not adopt it as their own. iTunes doesn't need a .wma encoder so as to be able to rip CDs to .wma, it just needs to be able to play them. let iTunes play protected .wma files from the other music services. really. then the iPod could do it all.

i think that HP has the potential to make a great player--one that will finally force apple to add more to the iPod. HP's idustrial design, of late, has been really great if you haven't noticed. certainly better than Dell's. The thing i wonder about though isn't players. it's music download services. Musicmatch and Napster are already pretty much clones of one another. nobody is going to care. the problem with them though is that, compared to th iTMS, they aren't that good. i have both on my windows machine and musicmatch is really slow and napster is really a PITA to navigate. the thing that's good about having multiple services is selection though. i've browsed all of them and they all have some different stuff. as a mac user, it would be nice to be able to access all of it. when the iTMS doesn't have something, the best thing would be, obviously, that they got it, but as a last resort, access to play the files at least from napster 2 would be a plus.

 

[jouster]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Seriously though, Apple had better have a better business plan in mind than relying on "coolness" (always fickle) and the iTMS lockin. After all, when you can buy competitive products like the Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra 40gb for $250 (with free noise-cancelling headphones), you need an awful lot of "cool" to cancel it out - especially when its gift-giving season and the purchaser isn't necessarily computer-savvy (or made of money).

Apple's done this before - start with a product that's 5 times as good as the competition (for double the price) and end up with a product that's 25% better than the competition (for double the price). Competing on "vendor lock-in" is bad for the consumers here.

-Richard

You've hit it on the nail IMHO. You know that conversation that you see floating around the Internet:

Jobs: Our products are better than yours
Gates: You don't get it Steve. That doesn't matter.

Well, it doesn't matter whether the conversation ever took place or not, because it is pretty much how Jobs views things. He doesn't understand that 'coolness' isn't the most important thing for many. He doesn't understand that most people don't care if something doesn't fit neatly into a 'product matrix.' He doesn't see that there are a lot of people who could care less what a product looks like since they will keep it in their pocket for most of the time. They certainly care how much ir costs, and whether it can play their growing library of pre bought WMP/MA files. To SJ, the idea of a such files in the iPod is anathema: it's almost like he feels they are not good enough for the iPod.....well, I think he is making an error, because I do not feel there are enough AAC buyers out there to maintain the iPod's position, and I don't think keeping iTunes and the iPod so closely interdependent will continue to generate iPod sales - especially not when something substantially the same yet much cheaper comes along. And such devices are starting to appear.

Therefore, I think your suggestions ^ are good ones, but I suspect they will never be implemented.

 

[jettredmont]

Re: Re: Re: Geez

Originally posted by MOM
However, my experiences with more recent HP products is that they are very average at best. No software in a box with the printer. Another laser printer that eats toner like mad, etc.

1) HP printers come in two branches: the version with software and the version without. A bit bated example, but when I last purchased an HP inkjet printer, there was the "950" and the "952"; the "952" included Adobe PhotoDelux and a bunch of other crap; the "950" was cheaper and just the printer for those of us who already had/didn't want the software.

2) Of course HP printers eat ink and toner like mad ... that's where they make money!

 

[jettredmont]

Re: Re: I smell conspiracy...

Originally posted by jouster
Because if enough people change their music buying habits it will stop being a loss leader. No one wants to risk missing those profits.

Ahhh, the old, "lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume" strategy that's always worked so well!

IMHO, digital music will not be profitable until:

1) There are significantly fewer competitors
2) New contracts are worked out with the labels.

(1) will definitely come before (2), but I don't expect either any time this or next year.

Yes, you can reduce storage costs and somewhat alleviate IT costs by spreading it out over more customers, but with 5-10 companies out there you can bet that the instant one of them has lower per-sale costs they will drop (slightly to drastically) their prices to draw in more customers.

 

[rjstanford]

Re: Re: Re: I smell conspiracy...

Originally posted by jettredmont
Yes, you can reduce storage costs and somewhat alleviate IT costs by spreading it out over more customers, but with 5-10 companies out there you can bet that the instant one of them has lower per-sale costs they will drop (slightly to drastically) their prices to draw in more customers.

Sorry, but I can't resist thread tying ... Wouldn't this imply that having your high-margin device be able to use the files purchased from your competition's money-losing loss-leader stores be a Good Thing?

-Richard

 

[Fukui]

Originally posted by kidA
this is the truth. apple needs to recognize and support .wma but not adopt it as their own. iTunes doesn't need a .wma encoder so as to be able to rip CDs to .wma, it just needs to be able to play them. let iTunes play protected .wma files from the other music services. really. then the iPod could do it all.

I'm starting to think the same thing.
At the very least, iTunes on windows could take advantage of the built in API's and let windows hadle the protected and regular WMA 9 files, that way they don't have to engineer the solution themselved.

On the iPod though, how do they add protected playback and not pay the MS tax?? If given a choice between the two, I think only the iPod should be able to play WMA...I think steve is willing to go this route, but only as a last resort.

 

[jouster]

Re: Re: Re: I smell conspiracy...

Originally posted by jettredmont
Ahhh, the old, "lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume" strategy that's always worked so well!

IMHO, digital music will not be profitable until:

1) There are significantly fewer competitors
2) New contracts are worked out with the labels.

(1) will definitely come before (2), but I don't expect either any time this or next year.

Yes, you can reduce storage costs and somewhat alleviate IT costs by spreading it out over more customers, but with 5-10 companies out there you can bet that the instant one of them has lower per-sale costs they will drop (slightly to drastically) their prices to draw in more customers.

I didn't mean to seem to push one particular strategy; I don't know enough about the business models in questio to comment. Your observations may well be accurate; they certainly seem sensible.

I just meant that some kind of new model will need to be found if any type of 'digital content sold remotely' company is to succeed.

The point of the post was that I believe that there is such a model out there, though of course no one is quite sure what it is yet.

One thing I do believe: the content companies will have to be dragged in kicking and screaming. They've spent decades trying to convince the consumer that it was the medium (i.e. vinyl, tapes, CDs, shops, employees etc.) that was the main expense not the content. When that excuse is no longer available, how are they going to continue to gouge us?

 

[eazyway]

from kidA


Seriously though, Apple had better have a better business plan in mind than relying on "coolness" (always fickle) and the iTMS lockin. After all, when you can buy competitive products like the Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra 40gb for $250 (with free noise-cancelling headphones), you need an awful lot of "cool" to cancel it out - especially when its gift-giving season and the purchaser isn't necessarily computer-savvy (or made of money).

Zen box is $314 on sale and 40% heavier. My kids jog and size and weight are very important to them. But it is all about what you can afford and more important what you really want. We are a PC (4) and Apple (2) household and all the kids(all in University..two taking computer science) all want the iPod not the Dell or any other device. You can rip and save in MP3 format from any store. Also the software which makes the device work is oh so important. The entire package is what sells which took a long time to develop is what will ultimately determine the best buy. The really big advantage of the iPod right now .... no moving parts except fot the HD. The next major step will be large capacity memory sticks or the something similar.

BTW I don't ever recall Apple selling a product for twice the price unless you want to compare a low end Chev to a low end Lexus and call that a fair comparison.

That is often done for PC's . Dell vs Apple or Dell vs Hp etc...People often compare two PC's and say the cheap one is the better deal without looking at what they are buying.(ie a 2 Ghz celeron vs 2 Ghz pentium III or IV or 2 Ghz Athlon or a 2Ghz PPC...they are not the same)

Check the Dell website and look at the equivalent products to Apple's and yes Dell is cheaper but not by a lot. Then you still have to add in shipping.

 

[itsbetteronamac]

GOD! All of these new companies want a piece of the pie, and are over saturating the market. They spend lot of money just to die soon after words, and hurt the true players who were around from the beggining. Apple did it right and is the best. If your going to hurt your self, don't hurt "actual players" in the process.

God why can't it just be like Apple, napster, and like rapshody. And in the end just be like Apple and Napster. (Gotta leave a little compition.

 

[phillymjs]

Originally posted by winmacguy
Well I could see Microsoft entering the market ... although it wont gain them any extra market share as they only do software.

Really? Then I must be imagining the Microsoft keyboard I'm typing this post on.

Microsoft will enter the market eventually, and they'll probably do it with another company's player that they will just brand and sell at a severe loss to undercut all the competing players. I wouldn't be surprised if their player only played .WMA files. As long as they include software that will automatically convert any MP3 to WMA, the sheep they call 'customers' will probably accept the limitation with few complaints.

I also wouldn't be surprised if they priced songs on their music store lower than competitors, even if it meant Microsoft was effectively paying a piece of the "real" price for every song purchased from them. They've got money to burn, and they're eager to bulldoze standards that compete with Windows Media format. So it will gain them market share in a way if they toss their hat into the ring.

The way Microsoft has handled the Xbox has shown that they are not at all shy about taking prolonged losses, as long as their presence in the market is taking some revenue away from their competitors.

~Philly

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by eazyway
[Zen box is $314 on sale and 40% heavier. My kids jog and size and weight are very important to them. ... BTW I don't ever recall Apple selling a product for twice the price unless you want to compare a low end Chev to a low end Lexus and call that a fair comparison.[/B]

Did you even bother to follow THE LINK IN MY POST (sorry for the shouting, but I guess some people missed it earlier) listing the Zen for $249 with the free noise-cancelling headphones? Apparently not... Actually, the online store just sold out today - but it was available from them when I posted... Or its $298 on Amazon (surely an easy comparison). As for the reviews, if you go to non-Apple sites you'd see that this is getting a lot of coverage. Heck, its frontpage on gear.ign.com. As it says in the review, "Creative had it easy: provide better value and superior sound quality than Apple and a good number of people will come to you. " Elsewhere, "Like its predecessor, it boasts a 98dB SNR, which puts it at the top of the jukebox heap. There is no portable on the market that can compete with the Zen family of portables in terms of audio fidelity. All you iPod owners are tricking yourself if you think otherwise. (I love my iPod, but I have no misgivings about its limitations.) If you appreciate high bit rate MP3s and have a decent set of headphones, then the Xtra will keep a smile on your face."

Apple has some serious competition out there these days. Apple fanaticism will keep the iPod strong for a while, but shouldn't be counted on to win Windows people over to the brand (especially when it can't play the standard (if annoying) Windows audio format) when damn near everything else serious can. Even if it weighs 1.5 ounces less than the competition (which may matter to some people, but probably doesn't matter at all to most gift-givers).

-Richard

 

[Apmonia]

The only reason why anyone downloads music from these services is choice. If iTunes has more artists and songs on its service, then it will win. Hands down. The smartest thing Apple can do is sign the smaller labels, those artists you can't walk into your local Best Buy and Wal-Mart and buy, and promote the hell out of them. Music lovers will use this service and that is what music lovers want. I couldn't the Trans-Siberian Orchestra at my local Best Buy so I bought the whole album off of iTunes for 9.99. That was twelve dollars cheaper than Best Buy's website anyway. And since Apple has been there from the beginning and a lot of artists use Mac's anyway, hopefully those artists will go to iTunes to distribute their music. Look at what Phish did over the summer. Could you imagine HP doing that? No way.

 

[jero]

hp?! man, i work for them and i never heard anything about this? who cares they will fall like all the others.

 

[Edot]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Did you even bother to follow THE LINK IN MY POST (sorry for the shouting, but I guess some people missed it earlier) listing the Zen for $249 with the free noise-cancelling headphones? Apparently not... Actually, the online store just sold out today - but it was available from them when I posted... Or its $298 on Amazon (surely an easy comparison). As for the reviews, if you go to non-Apple sites you'd see that this is getting a lot of coverage. Heck, its frontpage on gear.ign.com. As it says in the review, "Creative had it easy: provide better value and superior sound quality than Apple and a good number of people will come to you. " Elsewhere, "Like its predecessor, it boasts a 98dB SNR, which puts it at the top of the jukebox heap. There is no portable on the market that can compete with the Zen family of portables in terms of audio fidelity. All you iPod owners are tricking yourself if you think otherwise. (I love my iPod, but I have no misgivings about its limitations.) If you appreciate high bit rate MP3s and have a decent set of headphones, then the Xtra will keep a smile on your face."

Apple has some serious competition out there these days. Apple fanaticism will keep the iPod strong for a while, but shouldn't be counted on to win Windows people over to the brand (especially when it can't play the standard (if annoying) Windows audio format) when damn near everything else serious can. Even if it weighs 1.5 ounces less than the competition (which may matter to some people, but probably doesn't matter at all to most gift-givers).

-Richard

Remember, Steve even said this, that the iPod is available through more channels than other hard drive based players. Not everyone buys products online, nor spends hours searching for special deals. The format of the music really isn't an issue. Songs purchased from any music store cannot be shared anyway, so what is the point of being able to support other peoples music. The selection across the stores does not seem to make WMA more appealing either.

On another note, if all of these companies are using MusicMatch with their players, what happens if MusicMatch goes under because they are running a money losing service? BuyMusic? It seems like they are risking a lot by not having their own store in house.

 

[topicolo]

My fear is of the iTMS falling apart because the greedy music labels signing exclusive deals with Apple's competitors. If the iTMS has no more music selection, the store will start to die off .

 

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by Edot
The format of the music really isn't an issue. Songs purchased from any music store cannot be shared anyway, so what is the point of being able to support other peoples music. The selection across the stores does not seem to make WMA more appealing either.

Well, people are creating WMA files at home (its built into Windows) and have been for years - many of these people won't want to rerip their collections. Also, people are buying songs from these other services - most of these people don't want to repurchase their songs from iTMS. These people, with WMA files, feel that they have usable files. They can play them on most devices.

If Apple intends to support these users in the future as potential iPod users, then their iPod needs to support the WMA format. If the iPod plays any given format, then iTunes (at least on Windows, ideally on Mac) should also play it. Therefore, if Apple wants to target users who have, in the past, used WMP (many) or a non-iTunes music store (growing by leaps and bounds), it will have to support WMA.

Referencing your quote, I'm not talking about sharing purchased music files between users, just sharing existing (to that user) music between devices. And while WMA may not be appealing to you, it is appealing to many people (heck, so is Brittney Spears music). The question is whether Apple will target the iPod to the market reality, or to Steve Jobs' own personal music preferences. And the iPod is far from the only HD based player available in stores...

-Richard