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I think the strategy is more "let's throw ourselves at it, and regardless of what happens, we'll stick with it for an indeterminate length of time. But if there's even the slightest chance that we might be close to innovating, let's run away as fast as we can."

LOL! Well said...

The problem is that HP is behaving like a school boy who today wants to be an architect and tomorrow an attorney. They just try to see what works best for them (money wise). Their focus is not to innovate, but to make money and compete against those on top. No real focus whatsoever.

WebOS may have been the greatest Mobile OS ever, but without any faithful support by its 'monetary sponsors', it became a failure. To succeed, first you gotta believe in what you have in your hands.
 
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HP can get back in the game if they release a transformer-style tablet/laptop combo with windows 8.
Tablet mode = metro UI, put in a keyboard and mouse and u get a full windows PC experience!
That's the future people (unless android improves so much it replaces windows, which I don't think so) !
 
More successful products = more competition = more innovation = cheaper prices = happy consumers.
This is a dogmatic model that unfortunately a lot of people are believing to be true, but it's more subtle, especially in today's running industry. Apple has been innovating the most in the computer industry, yet they are always being followed (read copied). So, how does the competition makes more innovation by following when it is always Apple bringing the next innovation ?

Apple innovates while there's still nothing comparable on the market and makes a significant change to something existing. Take the latest example, the MacBook Air. 4 years later, the "ultrabook" comes along with its "amazing", "non compromised keyboard" and "stunning thinness" (after the netbook fiasco, allowing the iPad to rise) which looks exactly like the MacBook Air. And they call it innovation. Lower prices alone don't trigger innovation, Apple computers have never been cheap.
Although Apple also have borrowed some features elsewhere, they are insignificant compared to true innovation of the last 15 years I can remember. And if they did use something created elsewhere, they made it a standard (think about the mouse as a pointing device).

Apple brought among other things :
  • the first consumer all-in-one and easy to use computer with the Desktop, created by Xerox, as a standard to the market
  • they made computers beautiful (both the front and back)
  • evicted the floppy disc and now does the same with the CD/DVD to ensure old useless technologies don't last to long, endangering innovation
  • the trackpad
  • Firewire
  • backlight keyboard
  • insight cameras in screens
  • Unibody, full metal enclosure computers
  • the thinnest computers ever (already the Powerbook G4 where only a centimeter thick. Never has the competition reached that until the Ultrabooks, 11 years later)
  • multitouch display to the general market (like the mouse at its time)
  • Wireless and automatic sync between multiple data with iCloud like no one else does (it's more than just syncing documents around to have it everywhere, it's a full backup)
  • MagSafe (still haven't seen this anywhere)
  • etc, etc.

I won't talk about software innovations and iTunes/iPods. Innovation is mostly driven by passionate minds, that pop out ideas from "nothing", some from existing things in order to better them significantly. This "more competition = more innovation" dogma is a false innovation trigger that brings consumers to believe that more actors, each bringing a slightly better product than the previous one by adding a new, yet insignificant "something" to it or worse, only lowering the price for the same stuff the others are doing is innovation, while innovation truly is something that : "make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products (from Latin innovat- ‘renewed, altered,’ from the verb innovare, from in- ‘into’ + novare ‘make new’ (from novus ‘new’). 'Make changes in something established'", Oxford American Dictionary.

And I don't say I like everything Apple does, but from an innovation perspective, they've proven themselves more than once and thus have my respect and my trust. That's why I'm with them, for no other reason, no blind following nonsense, etc. You are right saying Apple is just a brand, it is. As for success, I wish too that HP has success, they do great printers and decent computers.
As for supposedly happy consumers thanks to competition triggering innovation, reading about Samsung's "latest innovation", the Galaxy S3, I can't say consumers seemed very happy about it... some critics are very harsh. Have you seen their mock-up of Siri ?
 
Man, that's some hardcore abuse of the word innovation there, man. I think you use it so much, the whole meaning of the word is lost upon you, and now you're just using it to use it.

Anyway, your list could use some fixering upering...


-The first consumer all-in-one and easy to use computer with the Desktop, created by Xerox, as a standard to the market

This is mostly true. Ole Steve was obsessed with making an easy to use, readily available, all in one computer, which he succeeded in creating with the Apple II, and eventually the Mac.

[*]they made computers beautiful (both the front and back)

Also true. They have brought some style to the computer scene.

[*]evicted the floppy disc and now does the same with the CD/DVD to ensure old useless technologies don't last to long, endangering innovation

This is a point of contention. Apple might see the writing on the wall regarding some older technologies, but they also seem to jump the gun a bit when getting rid of them. Optical drives might be in their waning days, but they're still widely used, being one of the cheapest and most readily available ways to transfer large files.

I'm also dead sure the reason OSX doesn't support Blu-Ray is because it conflicted with their plans for iTunes. In this situation, they put the good of the company ahead of the good and convenience of their users. This is one of the things I can't stand about Apple, by the way.

-the trackpad

Nope. There were computers that used trackpads long before Apple made them standard in their machines. They were among the first, but not THE first.

-Firewire

Innovative? Yes. But so was USB, which was developed around the same time.

-backlight keyboard

Not too sure on this one, but I'll give it to you. I've only seen backlit keyboards standard on Macs after all.

-insight cameras in screens

Same on this one. I'll pass on it.

-Unibody, full metal enclosure computers

Dunno if that's innovative so much as stylish. Unibody design is attractive abd adds a sense of class to their machines, but it offers no real advantage over other types of laptop bodies.

-the thinnest computers ever (already the Powerbook G4 where only a centimeter thick. Never has the competition reached that until the Ultrabooks, 11 years later)

Not quite. Read up on your computer history a bit.

-multitouch display to the general market (like the mouse at its time)

There have been multitouch displays available to the general public long before Apple introduced the iDevices.

-Wireless and automatic sync between multiple data with iCloud like no one else does (it's more than just syncing documents around to have it everywhere, it's a full backup)

As of right now, that's exactly what it is. You know, iCloud is okay. But that's it. Okay. I cannot fathom why some people hype it up like the second coming over here.

"iCloud is an innovative product that changed the relevancy of my synergistic lifestyle. Apple gets it. It just works".

HRRRRGGGGG!

-MagSafe (still haven't seen this anywhere)

Yup, I'll give em props on this one. Magsafe is pretty cool.

-etc, etc.

etc.

Yeah. Apple has done their fair share of contributing neat ideas to the PC scene. BUT THEY'RE HARDLY THE ONLY ONES! Instead of toeing the company line, and writing posts that sound like a cross between a cult manifesto and a sales brochure (a true Apple innovation there), read up on your computer history a bit, preferably beyond Apple sites.
 
Yeah, throw all those nice Integrity and Proliant servers away, those SAN solutions and storage arrays, all that software and consulting that's worth billions. Just make stupid printers.

Some people sure don't have a clue what HP even does and it shows. :rolleyes:

You have answered that question yourself - they should stick to making stuff we DON'T see, since pretty much every other consumer-aimed device HP produces sucks big time...apart from printers, of course.:rolleyes:
 
You have answered that question yourself - they should stick to making stuff we DON'T see, since pretty much every other consumer-aimed device HP produces sucks big time...apart from printers, of course.:rolleyes:

Who cares if they make a goodly bit of the hardware the internet runs on? I know I don't! In the meantime, Grandma wants to play Angry Birds on the iPad. Mumble mumble mumble innovation.

Comeon. I'll agree with you that some of HPs lower end machines are just that. Lower end and crappy. But your argument there is pretty sad.
 
It better be ARM based. Atom has been stagnant since launch in 2008 and Brazos still needs some low power teething. Maybe low power AMD Hondo will be out by then but you are still looking at really poor x86 performance.

Low power x86 outside of Intel ULV is just a major failure. Even then you are looking at 17W.

You're forgetting about the Medfield though, their ARM competitor :

Xolo-X900-benchmark.jpg


Seems to me Intel has something there.

----------

Win8 on a tablet would be a contender if it meant you could run your existing windows software on iPad-like hardware.

How do you figure ? Windows has been running your existing software on iPad-like hardware for close to a decade and has nowhere been a contender yet.

What makes you think Windows 8 makes this any different ?

----------

For HP, the path to success is to keep playing the game rather than changing the game.

HP to shareholders, yeah we're still doing well on those $50 margins?

The sad thing is that HP is no longer a premium brand.

Yeah, those 500k$ server Blades with 16, 1.6 ghz cores and 128 GB of RAM or those 10k$ OS licenses. 50$ margins right there.

Man, I wish they only made 50$ off of our multi-million dollar storage array.

And I bet the guy from support coming in at 11 pm tonight to work on 2 of our big 4 nPar Integrity cabinets only gets 50$ too.

What a cheap brand HP is.

----------

HP can get back in the game if they release a transformer-style tablet/laptop combo with windows 8.

Geez people... where do you think Asus got the idea from ?

MagNIM8zxFbdrAS.jpg
 
WebOS to Win8

WebOS looks and works nicely, but internally it's a mess, like a 5th grade science fair project rushed out the door at the last minute. The Touchpad hardware is good, though. I like mine a lot. Using it to write this post.

Win8 (WOA) looks like a fail to me, though. Microsoft learned nothing from WinCE. Neither did HP - remember the Jornada notebooks? There was no "fat binary', fjnding software that would work was a mess. MS hopes to fix that with an app store. Phooey. The other huge problem was that WinCE was crippled, deliberately, to prevent cannabilization of Wintel. I see many signs that is happening again with WOA.

And of course MS likes to give thise subtle signals: Wince. Whoa.

Don't be the first to buy one of these. Wait for the firesale. Then put Android on it. (Or WebOS!)
 
I'll definitely buy one (or two), but I'm going to wait at least six weeks to do so.

You never know, history might repeat itself.

Scary if they abandon this too. If it happened once, it can happen again.
 
You're forgetting about the Medfield though, their ARM competitor :

Xolo-X900-benchmark.jpg


Seems to me Intel has something there.
I did not forget about it. You are still looking at much less performance than the cheapest Sandy Bridge based Celeron. Intel in 32nm finally got around to competing with ARM with Atom. Now bench it against the rest of x86.
 
Geez people... where do you think Asus got the idea from ?

MagNIM8zxFbdrAS.jpg


Yea but asus used a proper-for-touchscreen OS.
And it's a more complete design, that let's you disconnect the 2 devices.
If you use the laptop you linked as a tablet it will have a huge chunk of plastic below it.

I mean it's not just to be the first, it's to be the first of the best.
 
I thought picking up webOS was a great move, since, from what I hear, it was a promising platform. As soon as they ditched it, it was clear it was a snap acquisition with no vision. Sort of sad. Going back to windows… even sadder.
 
I'm so sad WebOS is gone :( HP didn't do much to try and save it... They basically just saw that it wasn't doing well at first and killed it. Haven't heard of any open source WebOS phones either. Palm and HP ruined what should have been huge so much that nobody wants to touch it. At least we have Android to keep iOS some competition and moving along :)
 
Yea but asus used a proper-for-touchscreen OS.
And it's a more complete design, that let's you disconnect the 2 devices.
If you use the laptop you linked as a tablet it will have a huge chunk of plastic below it.

I mean it's not just to be the first, it's to be the first of the best.

Windows 8 on tablets won't be the Windows you think it will be. In the end, at least the TC4400 gave you full access to modifying the OS and installing powerful applications on par with desktops/laptops of the time.
 
Actually Windows 8 on ARM seems like it's going to be a good system.

I'm still not sure how this relates to Apple (It's not TabletRumors.com now is it?)
 
This is a dogmatic model that unfortunately a lot of people are believing to be true, but it's more subtle, especially in today's running industry. Apple has been innovating the most in the computer industry, yet they are always being followed (read copied). So, how does the competition makes more innovation by following when it is always Apple bringing the next innovation ?

Apple innovates while there's still nothing comparable on the market and makes a significant change to something existing. Take the latest example, the MacBook Air. 4 years later, the "ultrabook" comes along with its "amazing", "non compromised keyboard" and "stunning thinness" (after the netbook fiasco, allowing the iPad to rise) which looks exactly like the MacBook Air. And they call it innovation. Lower prices alone don't trigger innovation, Apple computers have never been cheap.
Although Apple also have borrowed some features elsewhere, they are insignificant compared to true innovation of the last 15 years I can remember. And if they did use something created elsewhere, they made it a standard (think about the mouse as a pointing device).

Apple brought among other things :
  • the first consumer all-in-one and easy to use computer with the Desktop, created by Xerox, as a standard to the market
  • they made computers beautiful (both the front and back)
  • evicted the floppy disc and now does the same with the CD/DVD to ensure old useless technologies don't last to long, endangering innovation
  • the trackpad
  • Firewire
  • backlight keyboard
  • insight cameras in screens
  • Unibody, full metal enclosure computers
  • the thinnest computers ever (already the Powerbook G4 where only a centimeter thick. Never has the competition reached that until the Ultrabooks, 11 years later)
  • multitouch display to the general market (like the mouse at its time)
  • Wireless and automatic sync between multiple data with iCloud like no one else does (it's more than just syncing documents around to have it everywhere, it's a full backup)
  • MagSafe (still haven't seen this anywhere)
  • etc, etc.

I won't talk about software innovations and iTunes/iPods. Innovation is mostly driven by passionate minds, that pop out ideas from "nothing", some from existing things in order to better them significantly. This "more competition = more innovation" dogma is a false innovation trigger that brings consumers to believe that more actors, each bringing a slightly better product than the previous one by adding a new, yet insignificant "something" to it or worse, only lowering the price for the same stuff the others are doing is innovation, while innovation truly is something that : "make changes in something established, esp. by introducing new methods, ideas, or products (from Latin innovat- ‘renewed, altered,’ from the verb innovare, from in- ‘into’ + novare ‘make new’ (from novus ‘new’). 'Make changes in something established'", Oxford American Dictionary.

And I don't say I like everything Apple does, but from an innovation perspective, they've proven themselves more than once and thus have my respect and my trust. That's why I'm with them, for no other reason, no blind following nonsense, etc. You are right saying Apple is just a brand, it is. As for success, I wish too that HP has success, they do great printers and decent computers.
As for supposedly happy consumers thanks to competition triggering innovation, reading about Samsung's "latest innovation", the Galaxy S3, I can't say consumers seemed very happy about it... some critics are very harsh. Have you seen their mock-up of Siri ?

I can name countless Sony and other laptops that omitted the optical drive before the Air did.

Beautiful is relative. Some people don't like minimalism. I personally like the look of Apple laptops, but I'm not so closeminded that I few this as fact.

Firewire? Come on now... sure it had it's uses, especially for large data, but it wasn't THAT much of an innovation. It was a cool technology, but to call it leaps and bounds above anything else is silly.

iSight cameras in screens? Really? There were a ton of webcams built into laptops before Apple did it. Maybe not the everyday bargain consumer laptop, but they weren't rare.

Backlight keyboard? Thinnest computer ever? No. Just no. There were thinner and lighter alternatives to the Air when it came out, and backlight keyboards existed. Maybe Apple made the backlight keyboard mainstream, but they existed.

Multitouch display to the market? Really? Apple didn't invent the multitouch display. The technology existed and they chose to adopt it. The thinkpad X lineup has had multitouch displays for about 10 years now, maybe even more.

Point is:

Apple isn't this "insane" technology inventor as you see it. Apple isn't flawless. Apple has the same problem as Sony does at times, making exclusive connectors to try and lock consumers into it's technology, or to make them buy the latest and greatest although their old technology works (ADC connector, anyone?). Apple is masterful at taking existing technologies that are already out there, changing a few things with them, and knowing when and how to market them.
 
Who cares if they make a goodly bit of the hardware the internet runs on? I know I don't! In the meantime, Grandma wants to play Angry Birds on the iPad. Mumble mumble mumble innovation.

Comeon. I'll agree with you that some of HPs lower end machines are just that. Lower end and crappy. But your argument there is pretty sad.

We're talking here about tablets used in the consumer/business user market and nothing else - the same market created/dominated by Apple and the iPad. Therefore, server/blade talk belongs to Ars Technica and not to this thread.

Besides, I couldn't care less about HP and its purportedly "innovative" tablets (or "slates", as Ballmer and some of his followers here would prefer). They have brought virtually nothing of value to the tech world in the last 20 years. Actually, even my HP printer's UI and bundled software are tragically bad - so it's good to rely on the built-in support offered by OS X (scanning, for instance, is flawless with Preview but doesn't work/isn't supported by whatever HP software the printer comes with).

Not to mention that the single nice recent thing created by them (WebOS) was pathetically dumped by HP itself in the trash of IT history.
 
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This is a dogmatic model that unfortunately a lot of people are believing to be true, but it's more subtle, especially in today's running industry. Apple has been innovating the most in the computer industry, yet they are always being followed (read copied). So, how does the competition makes more innovation by following when it is always Apple bringing the next innovation

I see you got thoroughly down voted by the crowd that believes in the "competition = lower prices = happy customers" oversimplification. As you point out, the way things work in the real world is considerably more complicated.

Its very unlikely that HP's competition is going to make the iPad 4 (or "the new, new iPad") any cheaper than the current lineup. HP certainly won't be able to match Apple's tremendous economies of scale when it comes to engineering; purchasing; and manufacturing. And they'll have to pay Microsoft something for a Windows 8 license. Chances are the HP Tablet, when it appears, will be price-competitive with the iPad - but certainly not cheaper.

HP's ultimate success or failure re-entering the tablet market really depends on how successful Microsoft is convincing consumers and businesses of the value in their bi-furcated Windows 8 release. MS is betting a lot on the tiled Metro interface, which has its adherents. But snazzy interfaces aren't enough to make millions of people buy computer hardware. That takes a thriving ecosystem, which is much, much harder to recreate. And its also the reason that Android, RIM, and Palm tablets have been the miserable market failures that have been.

I applaud HP for not abandoning the PC and Tablet markets. I just hope they can come up with the hardware and software to back up their confidence.
 
Fail?

You people do realize the word "fail" is a verb, right? Using it repeatedly as a noun doesn't make it a noun, any more than it makes the point you're trying to make any more believable. If anything, when someone starts throwing around the word FAIL I immediately stop listening or reading because I figure whatever they're saying is ignorant tripe anyway. And I believe I'm 100% right about that.
 
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