Huawei's Efforts to Steal Apple Trade Secrets Include Employee Bonus Program and Other Dubious Tactics

[StellarVixen]

I thought this was public knowledge? I am sure they all do this, but that doesn't make it okay. Coupled with their insane privacy policy, it always surprises me when people on this site point to Huawei as a legit option in tech. I wouldn't trust them with my email address, let alone anything else I keep on my phone.

People look at price. That is all.


Everything else is irrelevant. When I try to argue with them, they say "so what"? So, I gave up.


But they didn't give up on me. I am called "Apple Sheep" left and right. Some of the Android users are most insecure people in this world.

 

[Ubuntu]

But, I read posts from Huawei fans here about how much they spend on research and how they have hundreds of thousands of patents. That their products are the best in the PC world.

Why would they "need" to steal from the USA firms?

The two statements you describe are not mutually exclusive.

 

[9081094]

Yes, like when Mercedes-Benz disassembles a Tesla. Once a product hits the market you can be sure competitors take it apart and try to learn what they can from it.

Exactly, you want to learn from the best and try to make it even better. Yes, Mercedes did disassemble a Tesla for that purpose and they're starting to building their own electric cars and trying to make it better than Tesla.

 

[Ubuntu]

People look at price. That is all.


Everything else is irrelevant. When I try to argue with them, they say "so what"? So, I gave up.


But they didn't give up on me. I am called "Apple Sheep" left and right. Some of the Android users are most insecure people in this world.

In all fairness that very last comment is not helping you out. I agree completely about how people look at the price and nothing all, though.

 

[c1ue]

It is very believable that Huawei encourages information gathering - which in many cases involves IP theft.
However, it is naive to think that they are exceptional, or that Chinese companies are unique in this regard.
Doesn't anyone remember the Uber/Waymo (Google) court case?
I equally doubt that there are no other cases of American or European tech giants employing unsavory tactics to achieve an edge.
For that matter, I have personally experienced the practices of another large Asian company: Samsung. At meetings involving cutting edge technology discussions, there would always be one or two Samsung R & D people sitting at the back.
Another anecdote: the person I was renting an office space from in 2007 was a lifelong clothing manufacturing (sewing and weaving) expert. He told me many stories about how he was hired to help Japanese manufacturers improve their capabilities to sew or weave, only to be let go once his knowledge was exhausted.
This doesn't mean that I think this type of (mis)behavior is acceptable, however, the notion that Huawei or even all Chinese companies are the only bad actors, is false.
Beware becoming pawns to a media trope.

Last month, the United States Justice Department announced a series of criminal charges against Chinese smartphone maker Huawei for stealing trade secrets, bank fraud, wire fraud, and obstructing justice. Today, The Information has shed light on Huawei's tactics of stealing trade secrets, some of which were aimed at Apple.

According to today's report, a Huawei engineer in charge of the company's smartwatch project tracked down a supplier that makes the heart rate sensor for the Apple Watch. The Huawei engineer arranged a meeting, suggesting he was offering the supplier a lucrative manufacturing contract, but during the meeting his main intent was questioning the supplier about the Apple Watch.
This event reportedly reflects "a pattern of dubious tactics" performed by Huawei to obtain technology from rivals, particularly Apple's China-based suppliers. According to a Huawei spokesperson the company has not been in the wrong: "In conducting research and development, Huawei employees must search and use publicly available information and respect third-party intellectual property per our business-conduct guidelines."

According to the U.S. Justice Department, Huawei is said to have a formal program that rewards employees for stealing information, including bonuses that increase based on the confidential value of the information gathered. While the theft of trade secrets is nothing new among technology companies, the new allegations against Huawei represent "a more brazen and elaborate system of seeking out secret information," The Information reports.

Huawei's information gathering program led to incidents like the Huawei engineer probing a supplier for Apple Watch details, as well as Huawei copying a component of the MacBook Pro. Specifically, the company built a connector for its MateBook Pro that was just like the one used in Apple's MacBook Pro from 2016, allowing the computer's hinge to be thinner while still attaching the display to the logic board.

Huawei reportedly approached numerous suppliers and provided them with schematics just like Apple's, but most recognized the part and refused to make it for Huawei. The company told The Information that it requires suppliers to uphold a high standard of ethics and that it doesn't seek or have access to its competitor's confidential information. Eventually, Huawei found a willing supplier and the connector was built into the MateBook Pro.

The Information's report includes numerous other examples of Huawei's attempts at stealing information from Apple. One former Apple employee interviewed for a job at Huawei immediately after leaving Apple, and in the interview, Huawei executives repeatedly asked questions about Apple's upcoming products. "It was clear they were more interested in trying to learn about Apple than they were in hiring me," the former employee said.

Huawei's indictments extend far beyond Apple, including an accusation of bank and wire fraud against chief financial officer Meng Wanzhou, lying to the government, destroying documents, and attempting to move key Huawei employees back to China to impede the U.S. Justice Department investigation. Another indictment accused Huawei of stealing trade secrets, wire fraud, and obstructing justice for stealing robotic technology from T-Mobile U.S. for testing smartphone durability.

Article Link: Huawei's Efforts to Steal Apple Trade Secrets Include Employee Bonus Program and Other Dubious Tactics

 

[StellarVixen]

In all fairness that very last comment is not helping you out. I agree completely about how people look at the price and nothing all, though.

Should I even care? That is how it is in my experience, and do not forget I said "some". There are exceptions.

 

[c1ue]

Erm, actually Xerox invited Apple to use the technology. Not saying Apple has never taken anything but at least use a legit example.

An employee at Xerox may have invited Steve Jobs to use what Xerox PARC created; it is extremely doubtful that Xerox intellectual property or copyright lawyers, or top executives agreed. But then again, IP lawyering was much less advanced in the 1980s than today, so the comparison is pretty much worthless especially since Apple does not in any way "pay it forward" with regard to its inventions now.

 

[H3LL5P4WN]

I think some of their products are quite well made and some maybe not. Not sure about site being trash though. All manufacturers are competing against each other for market share. Huawei has had dual SIM card use available for their smartphones for a long time. Apple just now started offering it and it still offers only partial service on it too. With Huawei you can have two accounts on one phone and have two apps on one for meaning one per line allowing you to have two apps for a dual sim smartphone with 2 lines. The iPhone allows only one app and the other line can be used for only calls. The iPhone allows only one user where the Huawei smartphone allows two users like Apple’s computers do. Some things Apple is ahead and others Huawei is ahead. Each smartphone has its advantages and disadvantages.

You forgot to mention the backdoor 'feature.'

 

[stylinexpat]

You forgot to mention the backdoor 'feature.'

The backdoor thing is quite complicated. Some are forced to have a backdoor sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly.

 

[cmaier]

An employee at Xerox may have invited Steve Jobs to use what Xerox PARC created; it is extremely doubtful that Xerox intellectual property or copyright lawyers, or top executives agreed. But then again, IP lawyering was much less advanced in the 1980s than today, so the comparison is pretty much worthless especially since Apple does not in any way "pay it forward" with regard to its inventions now.

Xerox sued and lost, so it seems pretty clear cut that Apple did nothing against the law.

 

[MEJHarrison]

It is very believable that Huawei encourages information gathering - which in many cases involves IP theft.
However, it is naive to think that they are exceptional, or that Chinese companies are unique in this regard.
Doesn't anyone remember the Uber/Waymo (Google) court case?

I don't believe that anyone thinks Huawei is the only company doing bad things. This is about them being caught and having their day in court. Much like Uber/Waymo had their day in court for you to remember. And if others are caught, I'd expect to hear about them in the news as well.

The fact that other companies might engage in these practices doesn't change the fact that the government believes that they have a valid case against Huawei and want to take it to court. Everything else is simply distraction. Like an accused murderer complaining about all the other murderers who haven't been caught and are "allowed" to keep on killing.

It's really quite simple. Huawei has been accused of breaking some big rules. Now they'll have their day in court to try to prove otherwise. Regardless of who else does what, it doesn't change those simple facts.

 

[Sedulous]

Then why was there a lawsuit with a settlement?

Not sure what reference is here. Often when discussing Apple “stealing” from Xerox it is in reference to Xerox agreeing to let Apple use GUI and mouse ideas in exchange for stock... which Xerox quickly sold.

 

[cmaier]

Not sure what reference is here. Often when discussing Apple “stealing” from Xerox it is in reference to Xerox agreeing to let Apple use GUI and mouse ideas in exchange for stock... which Xerox quickly sold.

Xerox did sue Apple. Almost all of it was thrown out by the judge. One claim remained, but their were no money damages associated with that claim (i.e. xerox couldn’t have recovered any money from apple even if they won the sole remaining issue), so xerox settled and went away.

 

[iMEric984]

Given what’s going on in the world, and given that I can’t imagine macrumors has the resources to care, I generally assume a lot of these are paid or government employees, posting to try and influence the market or the voters.

You’re probably right. Samsung pays people to write about their stuff. So a scummy company like Huawei with no ethics and no shame in stealing would probably do the same.

 

[H3LL5P4WN]

The backdoor thing is quite complicated. Some are forced to have a backdoor sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly.

It's quite simple actually. No backdoors, or no use in the US.

I know I sure as hell wouldn't buy any of their products, especially a phone, given just how blatant their theft is alone. And that's before taking into account their direct pipe back through the Great Firewall.

 

[stylinexpat]

It's quite simple actually. No backdoors, or no use in the US.

I know I sure as hell wouldn't buy any of their products, especially a phone, given just how blatant their theft is alone. And that's before taking into account their direct pipe back through the Great Firewall.

In America I believe Apple has a choice which is great Each country has their rules and laws. Some are good and some are bad.

 

[CarlJ]

I'm not sure you're replying to the right person. I said there's nothing fishy at all about it. It's going to court because the case is ready.

I think cmaier was agreeing and expounding upon your statement, not arguing.

 

[PKoz]

Remember when Steve went to jail for stealing from Xerox? I don't remember that either.

He didn't steal from Xerox. If you going to mention Xerox it would be a good idea to know what you're talking about rather than just repeating what other idiots on the web state as fact. Apple / Steve Jobs were invited by Xerox to see their technology. Look it up.

 

[DNichter]

People look at price. That is all.


Everything else is irrelevant. When I try to argue with them, they say "so what"? So, I gave up.


But they didn't give up on me. I am called "Apple Sheep" left and right. Some of the Android users are most insecure people in this world.

Yup, price is really the main factor in the Android marketplace. That is what makes it difficult for any manufacturer to have success. Privacy just isn't something the majority of Android users care about, which is totally fine, just not for me. Insecure is probably accurate considering some are coming to an Apple-centric site to justify their buying decisions. It's definitely not all of them though as I have had great open conversations with a lot of those who prefer Android. In the end, the progress on that end of the industry ultimately benefits Apple users also.

 

[Abazigal]

People look at price. That is all.


Everything else is irrelevant. When I try to argue with them, they say "so what"? So, I gave up.


But they didn't give up on me. I am called "Apple Sheep" left and right. Some of the Android users are most insecure people in this world.

“Apple Sheep” is a badge of honour, not a brand of shame. Wear it as such, and that’s one less thing the haters can bother you over.

 

[c1ue]

Xerox sued and lost, so it seems pretty clear cut that Apple did nothing against the law.

You left out some pretty crucial detail.
The lawsuits Xerox filed were in response to Apple taking out copyrights to GUIs, among others.
Or in other words, the IP lawyering up we see today can be attributed at least in part to Apple's actions in taking legal protections for ideas clearly first invented at Xerox PARC and both publicly acknowledged as having been witnessed by Jobs/Apple.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of work has gone on since them to create ever better products, but then, the whole ethos behind Xerox PARC's work was to move the industry forward as opposed to create personal and/or employer advantage.

 

[cmaier]

You left out some pretty crucial detail.
The lawsuits Xerox filed were in response to Apple taking out copyrights to GUIs, among others.
Or in other words, the IP lawyering up we see today can be attributed at least in part to Apple's actions in taking legal protections for ideas clearly first invented at Xerox PARC and both publicly acknowledged as having been witnessed by Jobs/Apple.
Don't get me wrong, a lot of work has gone on since them to create ever better products, but then, the whole ethos behind Xerox PARC's work was to move the industry forward as opposed to create personal and/or employer advantage.

There is no such thing as “taking out copyrights.” When you create an original work of authorship and fix it in a tangible medium of expression, you have a copyright. You don’t apply for it. See 17 U.S.C. 102.

And Xerox did not sue Apple because Apple “took out copyrights.” Xerox sued Apple and asserted that XEROX had copyrights which APPLE was infringing: “The Xerox Corporation filed suit here today against Apple Computer Inc., accusing it of unlawfully using Xerox copyrights in its Macintosh and Lisa computers.” (https://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/15/...-apple-computer-over-macintosh-copyright.html)

 

[fairuz]

Exactly, what's Huawei has and US company doesn't? The answer is the dominance of #1 spot in leading 5G teach. Steal this which US hasn't got. It's like someone steal teach from you, but you know they are behind in tech and patent. Until one day that person come up with tech which you no longer can compete. You start yelling at everyone else saying " this guy steal from me before". US keep saying Huawei network equipment has security back door. Give me a break, has one one ever question cisco? Ask the CIA, they all as dirty as the commies.

All their stuff is stolen, even the smartphone designs. They're a joke.
[doublepost=1550637127][/doublepost]

I agree with you but the Chinese you just need to give them a damn lesson! They are screwing around the world as if they owe everything! The evilest nation on this planet has to be the Chinese. Earth will be a much better place without them.

Ok, I'm leaving this thread

 

[c1ue]

There is no such thing as “taking out copyrights.” When you create an original work of authorship and fix it in a tangible medium of expression, you have a copyright. You don’t apply for it. See 17 U.S.C. 102.

And Xerox did not sue Apple because Apple “took out copyrights.” Xerox sued Apple and asserted that XEROX had copyrights which APPLE was infringing: “The Xerox Corporation filed suit here today against Apple Computer Inc., accusing it of unlawfully using Xerox copyrights in its Macintosh and Lisa computers.” (https://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/15/...-apple-computer-over-macintosh-copyright.html)

I would recommend that you read the article you posted.
It says, "Apple copyrighted the distinctive ''look and feel'' of the Macintosh graphical user interface and has been quick to sue companies it believes have infringed on it. Apple has suits pending against the Microsoft Corporation of Redmond, Wash., and the Hewlett-Packard Company of Palo Alto, Calif., contending that their software products infringe on the Macintosh copyright."
The article is from 1989; the first Apple products, including multiple Xerox Parc inventions like graphical user interfaces, mouse, etc were from multiple years before this. Xerox didn't sue until Apple started the ball rolling with lawsuits against those companies which Apple felt was copying them.
Apple went IPO in 1980 and started selling Macintosh computers in 1984.

 

[racerhomie]

How is this even valid point in this discussion? Are people using iPads as a laptop with iOS 12 as an operating system?

Yeah. For regular folks it’s better than most laptops.