although it is hd-dvd.....that actually is a good deal seeing you could potentially rip your hd-duds onto your pc.
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I got an HDDVD player tonight
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although it is hd-dvd.....that actually is a good deal seeing you could potentially rip your hd-duds onto your pc.
I helped set up some £1500 TV ($3k) at my friends place and got it set up with some very high end upscaling DVD player.
Yea. I won't be buying into Blue Ray or HD-DVD
a $3000 tv with no high def player? whhhhhaaaat?
why?Let me clear some things up here
This is a direct comparison to HD DVD, Blu-ray, and DVD.
If you have questions just ask.
It is also important to note that while there is in development a 3 layer HD DVD disc capable of 17 GB per layer, or 51 GB per disc, it is not available yet and it is doubtful these will run on existing HD DVD players even with a firmware upgrade. Also, there are no existing 51GB HD DVD movies, meanwhile 50.1% of all Blu-ray discs (BD for short, not BR) are on 50 GB format. As shown here.
It is also important to note that there are 2 models of Blu-ray discs in development by Hitachi and TDK, a 100 GB model, and a 200 GB model. Both have been reported to run perfectly on all existing BD players with a firmware upgrade. (http://www.physorg.com/news9683.html)
Attach rates for Blu-ray, when given out especially by HD DVD companies, always include all sales of the PS3 console. That is the only reason it is so low. However, there are 2.8 million PS3s, making over 3 million Blu-ray capable players, and only 750,000 HD DVD capable players. Attach rates have nothing to do with it, it is pure numbers that have to be looked it here. The reason attach rates are used is only to confuse people into thinking that Blu-ray player owners don't buy Blu-ray movies, while the fact is most people just don't know the PS3 pays Blu-ray movies. The number of PS3 owners who use their PS3 to watch movies is growing.
The cheapest Blu-ray players are only around $250, and will playback in full 1080p, while the cheapest HD DVD players are $200 and do not.
Sales figures for Blu-ray have been greater for over a year now. According to Nielsen Numbers (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/) Blu-ray as had better sales since 2006, and currently have the lead in USA 62/38. Likewise, in the UK, sales are 3:1, and in Japan, they are 9:1. These are not attach rates, because once again, attach rates involve counting every PS3 which is unrealistic in this war. These are raw sales numbers.
The latest profile for Blu-rau, profile 1.1, allows for PiP (picture in picture), which is already out, and runs on the most popular BD player, the PS3. It is also on other BD players and most can be upgraded to support it. All other features will still work fine on non 1.1 players, and the movie will play perfectly, you will just not see the PiP playback. (It is important to note that there are several titles that support PiP on BD that will play on all BD players because the extra storage on the Blu-ray disc allows for a second encode of the film, one with the PiP, and one without, including T3).
Profile 2.0 will have internet content, and the PS3 will also support that. In fact there is at least one title coming out this month (January) that will support this feature.
The prices of the discs are comparable. In fact according to Amazon, Blu-ray prices are lower than HD DVD prices on average. Development costs are only minimally different and do not have any effect on the price of the discs. All Players of the same quality are around the same price, so there is really no difference now.
Currently, Blu-ray has out 445 titles vs the 390 on HD DVD. More titles have been announced for this year on Blu-ray than HD DVD. There are more studios releasing titles to Blu-ray than to HD DVD. There is only 1 major manufacturer of HD DVD players, Toshiba. There are a dozen different manufacturers for Blu-ray.
Quality-wise, there are only 22% of HD DVD with lossless audio, while there are 62.92% Bluy-ray discs with lossless audio.
Regions are optional on Blu-ray, to allow studios to choose to use them if they want. This lets them control what country can see a movie that is still in theaters in other countries without worrying about loosing sales to the theatrical release in those countries. HD DVD has no such option allowing all their releases to be seen anywhere in the world despite theater release dates. Although this sounds good to users, Studios do not like this. That is why there are only 3 studios supporting HD DVD exclusively.
Blu-ray has a new layer of hard coating, a new technology, that makes them even more resistant to scratches and fingerprints than DVDs and HD DVDs. Blu-ray also has BD+ for extra data protection against pirating, and BDwatermark to stop mass produced pirated movies on Blu-ray. HD DVD has no data protection besides the standard AACS, which Blu-ray also supports.
Now I am not saying HD DVDs do not look and sound great, cause they do. But I am saying that with all this extra technology and support that Blu-ray has, only one format will win the war, and Blu-ray is in the lead. If the war lasts too much longer, both formats will loose out to DVD and Digital Downloads. It is VITAL that all studios and manufacturers support one format against DVD and downloads, or both formats WILL fail.
Blu-ray is in the better place, with more support, more players, more titles, more sales, more manufacturers, more studios, more capacity, more bandwidth, more protection.... Blu-ray will be the future if there is to be any future at all in Hi Def media.
This is a direct comparison to HD DVD, Blu-ray, and DVD.
If you have questions just ask.
It is also important to note that while there is in development a 3 layer HD DVD disc capable of 17 GB per layer, or 51 GB per disc, it is not available yet and it is doubtful these will run on existing HD DVD players even with a firmware upgrade. Also, there are no existing 51GB HD DVD movies, meanwhile 50.1% of all Blu-ray discs (BD for short, not BR) are on 50 GB format. As shown here.
It is also important to note that there are 2 models of Blu-ray discs in development by Hitachi and TDK, a 100 GB model, and a 200 GB model. Both have been reported to run perfectly on all existing BD players with a firmware upgrade. (http://www.physorg.com/news9683.html)
Attach rates for Blu-ray, when given out especially by HD DVD companies, always include all sales of the PS3 console. That is the only reason it is so low. However, there are 2.8 million PS3s, making over 3 million Blu-ray capable players, and only 750,000 HD DVD capable players. Attach rates have nothing to do with it, it is pure numbers that have to be looked it here. The reason attach rates are used is only to confuse people into thinking that Blu-ray player owners don't buy Blu-ray movies, while the fact is most people just don't know the PS3 pays Blu-ray movies. The number of PS3 owners who use their PS3 to watch movies is growing.
The cheapest Blu-ray players are only around $250, and will playback in full 1080p, while the cheapest HD DVD players are $200 and do not.
Sales figures for Blu-ray have been greater for over a year now. According to Nielsen Numbers (http://www.homemediamagazine.com/) Blu-ray as had better sales since 2006, and currently have the lead in USA 62/38. Likewise, in the UK, sales are 3:1, and in Japan, they are 9:1. These are not attach rates, because once again, attach rates involve counting every PS3 which is unrealistic in this war. These are raw sales numbers.
The latest profile for Blu-rau, profile 1.1, allows for PiP (picture in picture), which is already out, and runs on the most popular BD player, the PS3. It is also on other BD players and most can be upgraded to support it. All other features will still work fine on non 1.1 players, and the movie will play perfectly, you will just not see the PiP playback. (It is important to note that there are several titles that support PiP on BD that will play on all BD players because the extra storage on the Blu-ray disc allows for a second encode of the film, one with the PiP, and one without, including T3).
Profile 2.0 will have internet content, and the PS3 will also support that. In fact there is at least one title coming out this month (January) that will support this feature.
The prices of the discs are comparable. In fact according to Amazon, Blu-ray prices are lower than HD DVD prices on average. Development costs are only minimally different and do not have any effect on the price of the discs. All Players of the same quality are around the same price, so there is really no difference now.
Currently, Blu-ray has out 445 titles vs the 390 on HD DVD. More titles have been announced for this year on Blu-ray than HD DVD. There are more studios releasing titles to Blu-ray than to HD DVD. There is only 1 major manufacturer of HD DVD players, Toshiba. There are a dozen different manufacturers for Blu-ray.
Quality-wise, there are only 22% of HD DVD with lossless audio, while there are 62.92% Bluy-ray discs with lossless audio.
Regions are optional on Blu-ray, to allow studios to choose to use them if they want. This lets them control what country can see a movie that is still in theaters in other countries without worrying about loosing sales to the theatrical release in those countries. HD DVD has no such option allowing all their releases to be seen anywhere in the world despite theater release dates. Although this sounds good to users, Studios do not like this. That is why there are only 3 studios supporting HD DVD exclusively.
Blu-ray has a new layer of hard coating, a new technology, that makes them even more resistant to scratches and fingerprints than DVDs and HD DVDs. Blu-ray also has BD+ for extra data protection against pirating, and BDwatermark to stop mass produced pirated movies on Blu-ray. HD DVD has no data protection besides the standard AACS, which Blu-ray also supports.
Now I am not saying HD DVDs do not look and sound great, cause they do. But I am saying that with all this extra technology and support that Blu-ray has, only one format will win the war, and Blu-ray is in the lead. If the war lasts too much longer, both formats will loose out to DVD and Digital Downloads. It is VITAL that all studios and manufacturers support one format against DVD and downloads, or both formats WILL fail.
Blu-ray is in the better place, with more support, more players, more titles, more sales, more manufacturers, more studios, more capacity, more bandwidth, more protection.... Blu-ray will be the future if there is to be any future at all in Hi Def media.
Future Shop had an amazing Boxing Day sale price on the Toshiba HD-A3 for $99 Cdn, including the same 7 free HD-DVD movie deal (two free in box, mail in for 5 more). Very impressive, and for that price I would probably have tried to get one, but it was not worth trying to line up. People were lining up outside the stores as early as 11pm on Christmas Day. Yuck.
I have a bookshelf with a couple hundred DVDs that I am in no hurry to replace with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. So I'll be buying a good upconverting DVD player and waiting out the battle.
I have a bookshelf with a couple hundred DVDs that I am in no hurry to replace with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. So I'll be buying a good upconverting DVD player and waiting out the battle.
a $3000 tv with no high def player? whhhhhaaaat?
Because *clears throat*
-There's a severe lack of content. So many of my fave films and TV shows aren't on either HD format. I don't care much for popular old films and new films. My friend has almost identical taste to me.
-The physical content costs a lot more. Plus the only HD streaming content in the UK costs an arm and a leg.
-The HD upscaler looks fookin beautiful. I've seen all the test HD thingies in shops and my friends HD-DVD player. Honestly sat back on a sofa I couldn't see any difference save a few 100hz upscaling artifacts.
-When it's the choice between an £800 HD media player or new sofa, computer or surround sound system... In the end he bought a cheap computer so theoretically he could just download these HD films and watch them on his TV for free
Because *clears throat*
-There's a severe lack of content. So many of my fave films and TV shows aren't on either HD format. I don't care much for popular old films and new films. My friend has almost identical taste to me.
-The physical content costs a lot more. Plus the only HD streaming content in the UK costs an arm and a leg.
-The HD upscaler looks fookin beautiful. I've seen all the test HD thingies in shops and my friends HD-DVD player. Honestly sat back on a sofa I couldn't see any difference save a few 100hz upscaling artifacts.
-When it's the choice between an £800 HD media player or new sofa, computer or surround sound system... In the end he bought a cheap computer so theoretically he could just download these HD films and watch them on his TV for free
I think the one thing everyone is forgetting here is that Blu-ray not only had movies and TV shows, but also games and DATA! You can back up 50 GB at a time with a Blu-ray. You can store a lot of music on that, or photos, or videos. You can just use it to back up your entire mac with a few discs, rather than a whole case of DVDs.
Also, i hate to say it but, you are probably not looking at the best system set-up. Many people who have an HD system don't have it hooked up right. Often, they are only getting an SD signal, or they have only the SD cables connected. Downloads do not have surround sound, the image is compressed a lot, and the sound as well, and there are not extras or scene selections or audio options, etc.
Maybe you are not ready for it yet, but when the war is over, you will probably be more likely to buy Hi Def Media (discs, Blu-ray or HD DVD). The real war with the HD formats is not Blu-ray vs HD DVD, it's HDM (both formats) vs DVD. If people think DVD is good enough, neither one will win, and a lot of money will be lost and some really excellent technology too. Give it a chance cause you do not know what you are missing!
Because *clears throat*
-There's a severe lack of content. So many of my fave films and TV shows aren't on either HD format. I don't care much for popular old films and new films. My friend has almost identical taste to me.
-The physical content costs a lot more. Plus the only HD streaming content in the UK costs an arm and a leg.
-The HD upscaler looks fookin beautiful. I've seen all the test HD thingies in shops and my friends HD-DVD player. Honestly sat back on a sofa I couldn't see any difference save a few 100hz upscaling artifacts.
-When it's the choice between an £800 HD media player or new sofa, computer or surround sound system... In the end he bought a cheap computer so theoretically he could just download these HD films and watch them on his TV for free
well, I guess if you can't notice the difference between a blu-ray and upscaled DVD it doesn't matter....I'm just not one of those guys. blu-ray is much more pristine and detailed, and that is very obvious to my eye.
well depending on how cheap the computer is, he might be able to play HD films but it will have to be a pretty nice and new PC. you also have to be wiling to sacrifice your bandiwth for weeks-months. personally I would rather spend $20 on the blu-ray and be able to use my internet.
Christ this HD crowd is a pain!
OMG I can back up my stuff? No way. Does it back it up in a cooler fashion than my external drive can it even match the speed of Firewire?
If I want to back something up I want it to be accessible from all my computers. DVD9 and HDD do that.
Nope, HDMI connection. And from what I've seen, the 4gb feature films compressed in H.264 (upclose) look the same as what I saw upclose in the TV shops...
That's the thing. I do know what I'm missing and I don't care for it. I also don't care about these big companies putting money in... Why should that concern me?
You see this is the UK and so long as you live near a city 18-24mb connections are on the menu full speed a 4gb file would be down in say, 25 minutes?
Plus why would it have to be a pretty nice and new PC? WTF, my 12" 1.5ghz PowerBook G4 handles 720p without any problems...
OMG I can back up my stuff? No way. Does it back it up in a cooler fashion than my external drive
can it even match the speed of Firewire?If I want to back something up I want it to be accessible from all my computers. DVD9 and HDD do that.
Nope, HDMI connection. And from what I've seen, the 4gb feature films compressed in H.264 (upclose) look the same as what I saw upclose in the TV shops...
That's the thing. I do know what I'm missing and I don't care for it. I also don't care about these big companies putting money in... Why should that concern me?
Yes it's obvious to me. But when I'm sat back watching a film I don't see the difference. I find theres a much bigger difference when using HD games consoles but I just don't see it in films.
You see this is the UK and so long as you live near a city 18-24mb connections are on the menu
full speed a 4gb file would be down in say, 25 minutes?Plus why would it have to be a pretty nice and new PC? WTF, my 12" 1.5ghz PowerBook G4 handles 720p without any problems...
so for making a backup of a 1TB hard disk of _today_ i need only 20 50 GB blank blu ray disks
those are costing how much currently ?.. my local store is selling those for 30 euro
20x30 euro = 600 just for the discs ... ok not everybody has a terabyte of data but still for 500GB you are still at 300 and for 250 it's 150
ok lets scrap the idea of making a backup on 50 GB disks .. that would mean 25 discs ...which still costs 10 euro and for 1Tb you would need what ? 40 discs ? (or 20 for 500 GB.. or 10 for 250)
so much for "a few discs" ... currently it's cheaper to simply buy more and more harddisks either internal/external than any optical media
the price will drop of blu ray etc. over time that's sure but the problem is: so will the sizes of harddisks increase ... the problem is hard disks increase every 6 months while optical media has at some point to be fixed to be succesful
I'd need 300gb+160+60 worth of Blue Ray discs for my backups and soon 300gb+1tb+60gb.
Which I find a little ironic as this is the sort of medium a technology person like me would crave, but it just falls short in both price, availability and functionality. We're accelerating past disc storage and onto USB and digital downloads. I just don't see the point in paying to stay in the past.
Plus where these formats are "limited" to their specs - a digital download or something on a HDD based storage solution can hold a video of any resolution, of any codec.
Which I find a little ironic as this is the sort of medium a technology person like me would crave, but it just falls short in both price, availability and functionality. We're accelerating past disc storage and onto USB and digital downloads. I just don't see the point in paying to stay in the past.
Plus where these formats are "limited" to their specs - a digital download or something on a HDD based storage solution can hold a video of any resolution, of any codec.
Well obviously you didn't quite get what I was trying to talk about.
For one, backing up an entire drive on 1 disc is stupid anyways, it would not fit, never has, never will. As for "your entire mac"... what I meant was the data you usually use such as.. say.. all your music, or all your photos, or all your videos... or all your documents... etc.
I can easily fit my 45 GB of songs on a 50 GB disc and then I'd have a backup that even my iPod can't loose if it got lost, broken, or stolen.
Besides, not everyone has a TB of space on their computer.. and most people who do are using it all either.
Oh yeah! And if you read all my post, you'd see that THERE WILL BE 200 GB models out! They should run in all existing players. If a 200 GB burner is released, then you can put 200 GB on one disc. 5 discs will cover a 1 TB drive completely.
ANYWAYS, my entire post was intended to clear up the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray. I have no idea if anyone understood any of it since everyone seems to be focusing on DVD vs Blu-ray.
So to address DVD vs Blu-ray...
Blu-ray and HD DVD shows 6 times the amount of data than a DVD does... That means that everything is sharper, crisper, clearer. It will look more in focus than ever. Now depending on your eyes, your monitor, etc... you might not see this. However most people can. 6X the data is not a little bit, its a LOT!
I can't say about your system, but every friend I have ever brought to my house to watch movies on my 46" LCD 1080p TV has just loved the detail and the quality of the image, it is like nothing they have seen.
Do not judge what you see in a store as what you can get out of a properly calibrated and set up system. Most store displays are quickly put together, or have the wrong set up, and are almost never calibrated.
DVDs also only support up to 6.1, and usually only 5.1, while Blu-ray not only supports 7.1 (most people don't care I am sure, since few have a 7.1 set up), but the sound range is far greater than a DVD. The sound is often uncompressed and full, while the DVD sound is always compressed. Once again, it depends on the set up, the speakers, the listener.
Also, if you are into interactive or bonus material, Blu-ray and HD DVD both have far more capability. With BD-j and HDi, you can see PiP, interactive games, smarter menus, etc. Blu-ray also has the ability to seamlessly branch between scenes so you can have multiple cuts of a movie on one disc, without having the entire movie rendered many times, it would only take the one or two scenes and it will seamlessly play them in order as if it was rendered together, something HD DVDs and DVDs can not do.
Once again, however, this will not matter to many people who do not access extras or play games on their DVDs.
FACT: April 2009, Digital TVs will be a requirement. Signal broadcasts will change to digital and all new TVs must meet these requirements.
FACT: More and more broadcasts are being aired in HD. Eventually this too will become a standard.
Now right now might not be the right time for you to get into HD if you have not already. The technology IS there, and it IS fabulous for those that appreciate it. But for those that just don't get it, eventually you will have to.
It looks like some of you can't even see the difference between SD and HD. I think that this is not normal. But then again, I am a profession Imaging Technician and high quality images are my job. I can't convince you to go HD. But I can try to convince you that when you are ready to go HD, go Blu-ray. You do not have to get a BD player in your mac, but I, for one, welcome that option. I am not only an imaging technician, I am also an animator. I work solely on Macs and lack the ability to make my work for anything other than DVD right now. Have a BD burner would be a God send for me since I want to make highly detailed animations that work best in HD. So for many professionals, this would be an awesome addition to the Mac, but for others, maybe its not worth it.
Digital TV is HDTV now? My gosh I must have been out when they established that. They're shutting off Analogue TV signals. It does not mean you need to buy a brand new TV whether we like it or not. It means we have to buy a digital TV reciever which have been sold since... 1998? Or whenever ON Digital was launched. They cost as little as £20 and I'm running one (EyeTV for DTT) on my iMac.
They still sell SDTVs with digital tuners alongside analogue tuners. I know. We bought my gran a brand new one.
You call yourself a "Imaging Technician" and you get this mixed up?
I'm hope I'm not forced into buying any Mac that costs more just because of a BR burner. I'd probably stop buying until the cost was as little as a DVD-RW is now.
They still sell SDTVs with digital tuners alongside analogue tuners. I know. We bought my gran a brand new one.
You call yourself a "Imaging Technician" and you get this mixed up?
I'm hope I'm not forced into buying any Mac that costs more just because of a BR burner. I'd probably stop buying until the cost was as little as a DVD-RW is now.
It's funny you mention this - I feel exactly the same way. I'm a techno-phile. I love gadgets, gizmos, whatever you want to call them - yet I just can't for the life me get worked up about HD-DVD or BluRay. Even earlier in this thread, I expressed interest, and since then, that's pretty much all I've had. Mild interest, from a tech standpoint. I've taken no steps to own either player or format.
And yes, I have a big 'ol HD television. I watch only HD channels. I love my Hi-Def video games.
I think the few things the new formats actually offer (higher image quality, sound, etc) are simply not enough to get the general population to fork out for them. Certainly not to replace their entire collections with, and certainly not at the prices that BR and HD-DVD are at, players and media. And again, not when you can buy an upscaling DVD player, and keep your entire collection.
What was so great about DVD? A little better quality, but you could skip around! Same thing with CDs. That was were the value was, and that's the feature that created the demand. That's what made Joe Sixpack replace a closet full of VHS tapes. Not the image quality. The quality is an added bonus, and nothing more.
In either format, is there a feature that revolutionary? No. They are both simple evolutions of what is already in place.
I could be wrong, but I think both formats are rather DOA.
Just caught that myself. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, eh?
I think it's really more about Sony getting some back from the last format war...
and don't forget: multiple audio languages on one disk
for that is single handed the most important feature for me ... with VHS that simply wasn't possible and thus you either had a dubbed version or the original one (if you could find one)
then no rewinding and of course as a bonus extras
IMHO i would have said that they should waited a little bit further (with all the layers etc.) and at least made the HD discs smaller in size
not only would it increase the amount of discs you can fit in your shelf (and you would been able to fit them in your pocket) but also it would made devices smaller
Although this is not a new thread, I remember someone on here mentioned that they did not SEE a difference between HD and SD.
Technically, SD (standard definition) only uses 480 lines of data to define the image. HD (high definition) uses either 720, or 1080 lines.
If you want to actually SEE a difference between the two and not just hear about it, check this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102
This shows actual screen shots between HD sources and SD sources.
If you can not see the difference when comparing them side-by-side, then there really is nothing I can do to convince you to go to HD.
GRANTED, the SD source here has been UP-CONVERTED to give the best quality it possibly can on an HD screen. A raw, untouched SD source would look even softer.
Technically, SD (standard definition) only uses 480 lines of data to define the image. HD (high definition) uses either 720, or 1080 lines.
If you want to actually SEE a difference between the two and not just hear about it, check this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102
This shows actual screen shots between HD sources and SD sources.
If you can not see the difference when comparing them side-by-side, then there really is nothing I can do to convince you to go to HD.
GRANTED, the SD source here has been UP-CONVERTED to give the best quality it possibly can on an HD screen. A raw, untouched SD source would look even softer.
you don't factor in viewing distance which is the important point of HD ...
of course if you sit like 4 feet away from the screen you will see a difference (like on a computer screen.. thus screenshots are worthless .. unless you keep the same screen height:distance ratio like with sitting in front of your tv)
1.
measure the height of your screen (important: height not diagonal) and then
2. measure distance from screen to where your head is normally when watching TV
devide 2 through 1
if it's higher than 4.5 (or was it 4.8 ?) you would be quite challenged to see a difference between a PAL signal (which is 576 lines and still SD btw) and 720p
if it's higher than 6 you will equally hard pressed with 1080
of course if you have actually a good SD tuner in your TV... which most LCDs/Plasmas don't (which many manufacturer do on purpose BTW)
you know where i got those numbers ? from a german video/TV magazine where they actually tested that without telling the people which signal they are watching and they should guess ...
if it's
And I think that makes a lot of sense.
I may do the same, because I still have an older DVD Player and would prefer to play my SD-DVDs through HDMI. Instead of getting a Samsung or similar, I will get the HD-DVD player and kill two birds with one stone.