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Originally posted by dongmin
ok, I'm not an engineer but I'm pretty sure power dissipation does go up linearly as frequency increases. The 1.2 ghz 970 is of a lower core voltage than the 2.0 ghz 970. So, as I stated in my original post, under the same voltage, the 1.6 ghz 90 nano 970 would be around 27W.

I reread my post and realized I'm in error: I stated that the power requirements are "not linear" with frequency. You and others trying to give me a basic course in Physics are correct. Dynamic power requirements (capacitance charging) are linear with frequency and the square of core voltage. For some reason I was thinking of leakage current without considering that it would just shift the y-intercept and not in a manner favorable to my argument!

Your computation assumes that the 970 drains 0 Watts at 0 frequency and creates a generous estimation of the power requirements at the same core voltage for lower clock speeds. This is incorrect. There is a static power drain: a constant subthreshold current (leakage power) in a transistor. This can be quite significant. For instance, the 3.2Ghz P4 leakage is around 20 Watts(!) at any clock speed--enough to power a G4 or suck a laptop battery dry!

Intel solves this in the P4M by applying SpeedStep to power down or clock down when idle (or just generically when on battery power). However the real savings is much simpler. Core voltage needs to be kept high to allow fast switching and core voltage is quadratic in dynamic power and exponential in static power. This effect gets exemplified in the Pentium M/Banias by clocking even slower and getting a better return--the PM has a leakage of < 1W. Too bad the sequel 90nm Pentium M/Dothan leaks like a sieve (10W).

So yeah, you're mostly right but you are assuming that a 90nm 970 will need to be at the same voltage. That assumption is usually erroneous--it's really hard to say here since you are comparing a 1.6Ghz part to a 2.0Ghz one. Usually the core voltage would be lower in a notebook than a desktop and thus the power is significantly lower. In fact most low power chips implement Dynamic Voltage Frequency Scaling (the generic term for Intel "SpeedStep" or AMD "PowerNow") which scale the frequency and voltage for processor demand.

I think in the interest of completness there should be another power drain due to the finite voltage response of the transistor. I don't know if this is significant since I'm not a hardware guy.

Actually my statement is accurate if you are comparing the chips at the same clock speed. According to this intel document, Pentium 4s give off around 55W at 2 ghz. Again I'm not an engineer so I can't judge the validity of Intel's claims but just so you know that I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass.

So I should be comparing them at the same clock speed? Hmm, then the P4 must really suck because its performance per clock is so miserable. We should ditch them and dig up our old Pentium 3's

If I'm going to go through this absurdity, why don't I compare different generations of the same CPU to skew things back in my direction? For instance your middle of the line 55W @ 2Ghz P4/Northwood used to drain 75W when it was a 2Ghz P4 Williamette (Again this is due to a drop in core voltage from 1.75 to 1.5V made possible by moving from 180nm to 130nm: to give you a rough feeling how significant core voltage can be and what a die shrink enables).

The reason they have similar power requirements at the same clock is because they have similar transistor counts (and core voltage)--power being an absolute linear with transistor count (and thus exponential with time due to Moore's Law which is why we're in this mess: the days of the 6W max power G4 are gone forever).

I've not seen anyone consider a 2Ghz P4 in the same class as a 2Ghz G5. Nobody benchmarks this because we all know the answer. They compare the P4 at 3.2Ghz or, more appropriately the P4 Xeon at 3.06Ghz (Intel claims 82 watts for both).

I say "Intel claims" because all the above are Intel "thermal guidelines". In reality the P4 3.2Ghz peaks above 100W as I mentioned earlier. Compare peak to peak and average to average. A single 3.2Ghz P4 uses more power than two 2.0Ghz G5s!
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Did you even bother reading what I wrote before commenting on it?

The single purpose of the space shuttle was to be reusable. It is reusable. It was hoped that the reusability would make it more economic.

Don't argue with someone who already agrees with you. It wastes time and annoys the person who already agrees with you.

Then don't agree with me so much... :p

Sorry, man. Bad day. I read your post to say that the goal wasn't economic but reusability with the hope that there might be an economic secondary effect.

Actually, looking at most of my posts today I've been rather antagonistic. Taking my bad day out on the rumor boards again, I guess...
 
Re: G5 Powerbook

Originally posted by manu chao
I won't buy a G5 Powerbook until VirtualPC (if ever???) runs on a G5. And since dual G4s (e.g. @1.25Ghz) seem to be faster with MP-aware, non-G5-optimised programs than single G5s (e.g. @1.6Ghz), I am still hoping for something like a dual 1.33 Ghz 17'' Powerbook.
Don't hold your breath for that dual G4 PB. Besides we can assume (hope) that most of the apps will soon be able to take advantage of the G5.
 
Originally posted by Tim Flynn
Xilinx ( a FPGA) vendor is all ready shipping FPGAs built upon 90nm design.
The chips are fabbed by IBM.
So a 90nm 970 in the near future sounds reasonable.
Normally for a CMOS design the power calculations (used to be ) are simple.
Basically power was linear with frequency and squared with voltage. But with the smaller geometeries, leakage current (power) has become a bigger factor. Early information for 90nm showed that the leakage current (power) was about half of the total.
So not all electrons are used to find aliens or fold a protein, a big part is used to heat the room :D

But, I'm sure IBM has some tricks up their sleeves ;)
That's what the SOI is for.
 
Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Potentially, the G5 could creep into the consumer line (iMac) by the end of next year, but I'd call that very doubtful.
They might have to change the form-factor for the iMac too.
 
What's difference between "average" and "typical" ??

Originally posted by tychay
(Intel claims 82 watts for both).

I say "Intel claims" because all the above are Intel "thermal guidelines". In reality the P4 3.2Ghz peaks above 100W as I mentioned earlier. Compare peak to peak and average to average. A single 3.2Ghz P4 uses more power than two 2.0Ghz G5s!

Don't be so sure that Intel is playing a game here.

The IBM papers for the PPC970 quote wattage use as "typical", which in my mind means that they are not using peak wattage.

It makes a lot of sense to quote numbers that actually reflect typical heavy use - and not to focus on a theoretical "worst case" instruction stream that manages to keep every part of the chip busy.

Intel's "thermal design" guidelines are merely an attempt to characterize the upper limit of power consumption that is likely to be seen in hard, sustained use. Since the P4 chips have internal temperature sensing and controls this is safe, even if you do hit the mythical worst case load (you can actually run a P4 without a heat sink, and it won't be damaged).

So, find the real peak numbers for both CPUs, or use the manufacturer's ratings for both. Don't inflate the Intel numbers by some "thumb in the air" factor just to align with your viewpoint.
 
Originally posted by stingerman
The 7457 in the iMac with 2MB L3 cache or no L3 cache but 400MHz effective FSB is more than enough for the iMac along with a ATI 9600 GPU.

But it would be nice to get a headless desktop version of the PowerMac G5 for a typical corporate user who doesn't need all the features of the G5 but would prefer it over an iMac.
Bring the Cube back!!
 
Re: Re: Intel @ 5-7 ghz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SelectBishopEgg

All that said, IBM still need to get a move on, Opteron is already kicking G5 ass and is a major threat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, maybe for people like us. But the Operating System is still the main decision driver for the average computer user. I would contend that OS X is generally well perceived and has a real chance to drvie increased Apple sales.

I am currently researching certain aspects of computer history for my senior year thesis, and one thing here may be valid:

The 'killer feature' that drove sales tends to jump about, at least in hardware (unfortunately, it has remained DOS/Win for soft ware for the majority of users).

First, it was having a floppy drive. Then RAM became the buzzword - in the early PC era, no one cared much about clock speeds (this can be seen by examining which features advertisers chose to promote in the early 80s). This lasted for a while, with two major blips: the moves to 16 bit then 32 bit, both of which were used to power sales. Only after the 32 bit era was well underway did clock speed start to become a major factor in Joe public's perception of what made a good computer (with Windows taken for granted unfortunately).

Well, we are at another junction: what will drive public perception in the next few years? Will the jump to 64 bits suffice? Perhaps not; it is hard to explain any benenfit of such a move to non geeks, especially as there is virtually no killer app yet taking advantage of it. Will it be clock speed? Perhaps not - even Intel seems to be moving away from promoting that aspect. I would tentatively suggest that the OS, in combination with integrated multimedia (remember that word?!) features like iTMS and so on will be the area to concentrate on. Most people now perceive computers as being able to fulfill their needs on a hardware level, and pay less and less attention to the processor. They simply want to be reassured that 'it will do the web' or 'it will play my games', abnd as long as they walk out of compUSA with such a system they could care less whether it has an Intel or AMD processor. The fact that Apple's processor is different is far less relevant than the fact that their OS is different.

All this is a long way of mildly disagreeing with the AMD related assertion quoted above, but we shall see......that said, it is always worth bearing in mind that most users are FAR less interested in the specs of their machine than the average macrumors poster. Even if the Opteron does perform better than the G5, will the majority care? Can processor choice ever become the most important factor in buying a computer, given the underwhelming reception of 64 bit ness?
 
Originally posted by Analog Kid
Put a prototype, proof of concept machine on the CEOs desk?

What do you think a CEO does all day, play with toys?! :rolleyes:

Don't forget which CEO we're talking about here - the one that spent 20 minutes at MWSF describing the reasoning behind the shape of the (then) new iMacs :D .
 
Originally posted by tychay
You and others trying to give me a basic course in Physics are correct.

(plus way more CPU information that I thought I would learn on these boards)

Now who's giving the physics lesson? :D
 
Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Rincewind42
...
Now, relating all this to the light bulb in your ceiling. Yes, 57 watts from your CPU is exactly the same as 57 watts from that light bulb. The difference is that the primary output from the light bulb is light (duh) and heat. A CPU however, converts far less energy into heat, as if it did it would not perform at all (it needs the electricity to do it's work). Thus a CPU consuming 57 watts will not be as hot as a light bulb doing the same, but then it also won't be a bright =).
Thank you for all this explanation. I am myself an engineer (in the French sense) but for some strange reason, I forgot it all (and believe me, I used to do this sort of sh*t in my sleep:D). Anyway, for some other strange reason, I always associated the power numbers given in processor specs as heat dissipated as opposed to power consumed... silly me.

Now about how hot the chip is compared to a light bulb. Let's imagine that heat dissipation (in watts) was the same (highly unlikely) for the chip and the light bulb. That's not enough to say which one is hotter to the touch. Because you need to know how vast the surface of dissipation is (I don't know if it's clear). In our case, if the heat dissipation is the same the chip surface is smaller than the bulb's (I guess) so the chip would feel hotter. Does that make sense?
 
Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Rincewind42

Now, relating all this to the light bulb in your ceiling. Yes, 57 watts from your CPU is exactly the same as 57 watts from that light bulb. The difference is that the primary output from the light bulb is light (duh) and heat. A CPU however, converts far less energy into heat, as if it did it would not perform at all (it needs the electricity to do it's work). Thus a CPU consuming 57 watts will not be as hot as a light bulb doing the same, but then it also won't be a bright =).

That does not make sense to me. What goes in must come out. If a processor is taking in 57 watts of power then that energy has to go somewhere. Some of it is used to drive the external circuits like the bridge chips but that is a small amount. The rest is converted to heat. IIRC from my physics courses all energy eventually becomes heat. While it is using the 57 watts to work (or operate), most of it eventually becomes heat in the chip that must be carried away. Hence the big heat sinks.

If you to back to the light bulb analogy, an incandenscent bulb is not very efficient. A 60 watt bulb converts a certain percentage of its input to light and the rest to heat. A fluorescent bulb converts a higher percentage to light and less to heat. A motor converts most of its energy to mechanical motion and a small percent to heat. I am not sure what 'work' a microprocessor does.
 
Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Kurt
That does not make sense to me. What goes in must come out. If a processor is taking in 57 watts of power then that energy has to go somewhere. Some of it is used to drive the external circuits like the bridge chips but that is a small amount. The rest is converted to heat. IIRC from my physics courses all energy eventually becomes heat. While it is using the 57 watts to work (or operate), most of it eventually becomes heat in the chip that must be carried away. Hence the big heat sinks.

If you to back to the light bulb analogy, an incandenscent bulb is not very efficient. A 60 watt bulb converts a certain percentage of its input to light and the rest to heat. A fluorescent bulb converts a higher percentage to light and less to heat. A motor converts most of its energy to mechanical motion and a small percent to heat. I am not sure what 'work' a microprocessor does.

Power numbers are typically quoted with the outputs disconnected... So no energy is being transfered to external circuits.

The power required to drive the bus is above and beyond the power quoted for the chip.

There might be some heat generated in the ground plane because of currents between local differences in potential, but this isn't included in the chip power either-- whatever the local difference in potential to true ground, the power rail to the chip must be the specified voltage above the potential at the ground pins or nothing works.

Additional heat is dissipated in the power supply because of the inefficiency of converting 12V to 1.1V, and this is directly related to the current drawn by the chip, but it is not included in the quoted chip power because the external system is unknown.

The "work" done is charging the internal capacitors (transistor gates). This is the entropy (or reduction in entropy) that was described in an earlier post. Trouble is that all that organization gets changed with every clock.

What goes up, must come down-- every '1' eventually becomes a '0'. All those charged caps eventually are discharged. As this happens, the current in and out of the transistors is run through the internal wiring resistance and disipates as heat.

It's like lifting a weight repeatedly-- the fact that that the weight hasn't gone anywhere in the end doesn't mean your arm isn't tired. Your muscles aren't 100% efficient, and they don't have a means of reusing the energy released in bringing the weight back down-- so that is all wasted as heat.

In this case it's a very small weight but it's being lifted up and down billions of times a second (GHz).

Driving the external bus is the same process but with a much larger weight-- each copper trace has a capacitance much higher than an internal transistor. Current comes out of the pins to raise the bus signal to '1' and then flows back through the same pins to drain the signal to '0'.

[edit: the leakage power can be viewed as a resistor connected between power an ground. The current just flows through the silicon, dissipating heat as it goes with nothing useful coming of it...]

If current goes into a chip with the outputs disconnected, it comes out as heat. As stated above, all that heat is coming off a few square mm of monolithic sand... More heat than a 57W lightbulb over a much smaller surface area means a much higher temperature than that lightbulb.

The heat sinks try to give the heat more surface area to disipate over-- keeping the temperature down. The fans try to aid convection in transfering that heat to the air and then to the environment.
 
Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Kurt
That does not make sense to me. What goes in must come out. If a processor is taking in 57 watts of power then that energy has to go somewhere.

If you to back to the light bulb analogy, an incandenscent bulb is not very efficient. A 60 watt bulb converts a certain percentage of its input to light and the rest to heat.

I am no electrician. However:

1. A lightbulb generates heat in a very small space (under 1 cubic mm).
2. A lightbulb is optimized to generate light.
3. A lightbulb is not only 60 watts but also 110 volts at 60 hz
4. A processor generates heat in a very wide space with a heat dissipation system in direct contact such as the substrate, the heatsinks, the fans, the case, the table, the room. So the heat distribution is far higher. A lightbulb is in a vacuum ans its external surface is glass which is a near perfect heat transmission medium.
5. A processor is optimized to produce NO light, MINUMUM heat, and mazimum hz (Mhz or ghz to be exact)
6. A processor is not only 60 watts but also 3.3 volts or more recently as low as 1.1 volts at 1-4 Ghz

It is a power and energy DISTRIBUTION problem. The lightbulb is like a girl standing on you with all her weight with a single high heel, vs, a really wide piece of paper double her weight sitting on you. Most of it drapes onto the ground harmless. As for the girl, after you get out of the hospital she owes you a favor. FORCE her to buy you a quad-G6 Powerbook. No not the other thing, it doesn't last long enough :)

Rocketman

Simple terms, simple minds.
 
I'm curious about heat generation of the PowerPC 750FX vs. the 750GX.

Both are produced on a 130nm process, however, because of the 750GX's 1mb L2 cache (double the 750fx), the die size will increase from 36.6mm squared to 51.9mm squared.

Out of these to situation, granting similiar clock speeds, would a smaller die sized 750FX generate less heat than the 750GX. Smaller die-size giving the 750FX lower power consumption, but wouldn't a larger die-size be better for optimal heat transfer to a heat sink.

http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/jun2003/newproductfocus.html
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Rocketman
The lightbulb is like a girl standing on you with all her weight with a single high heel, vs, a really wide piece of paper double her weight sitting on you. Most of it drapes onto the ground harmless. As for the girl, after you get out of the hospital she owes you a favor. FORCE her to buy you a quad-G6 Powerbook. No not the other thing, it doesn't last long enough :)

Rocketman

Simple terms, simple minds.

Well, certainly a more entertaining analogy than the endless comparisons with cars.......:p
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Rocketman
I am no electrician. However:

1. A lightbulb generates heat in a very small space (under 1 cubic mm).
2. A lightbulb is optimized to generate light.
3. A lightbulb is not only 60 watts but also 110 volts at 60 hz
4. A processor generates heat in a very wide space with a heat dissipation system in direct contact such as the substrate, the heatsinks, the fans, the case, the table, the room. So the heat distribution is far higher. A lightbulb is in a vacuum ans its external surface is glass which is a near perfect heat transmission medium.
5. A processor is optimized to produce NO light, MINUMUM heat, and mazimum hz (Mhz or ghz to be exact)
6. A processor is not only 60 watts but also 3.3 volts or more recently as low as 1.1 volts at 1-4 Ghz

It is a power and energy DISTRIBUTION problem. The lightbulb is like a girl standing on you with all her weight with a single high heel, vs, a really wide piece of paper double her weight sitting on you. Most of it drapes onto the ground harmless.

Was this whole thing a parody, or were you serious?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Was this whole thing a parody, or were you serious?

My thoughts exactly.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Analog Kid
Power numbers are typically quoted with the outputs disconnected... So no energy is being transfered to external circuits.

The power required to drive the bus is above and beyond the power quoted for the chip.

The "work" done is charging the internal capacitors (transistor gates). This is the entropy (or reduction in entropy) that was described in an earlier post. Trouble is that all that organization gets changed with every clock.

What goes up, must come down-- every '1' eventually becomes a '0'. All those charged caps eventually are discharged. As this happens, the current in and out of the transistors is run through the internal wiring resistance and disipates as heat.

It's like lifting a weight repeatedly-- the fact that that the weight hasn't gone anywhere in the end doesn't mean your arm isn't tired. Your muscles aren't 100% efficient, and they don't have a means of reusing the energy released in bringing the weight back down-- so that is all wasted as heat.


Driving the external bus is the same process but with a much larger weight-- each copper trace has a capacitance much higher than an internal transistor. Current comes out of the pins to raise the bus signal to '1' and then flows back through the same pins to drain the signal to '0'.


If current goes into a chip with the outputs disconnected, it comes out as heat. As stated above, all that heat is coming off a few square mm of monolithic sand... More heat than a 57W lightbulb over a much smaller surface area means a much higher temperature than that lightbulb.

The heat sinks try to give the heat more surface area to disipate over-- keeping the temperature down. The fans try to aid convection in transfering that heat to the air and then to the environment.

I think you meant to say pretty much what I did. If you think of work as energy transmitted in another form then heat, the processor does not do any. All 57 watts is eventually dissapated as heat.
 
Re: What's difference between "average" and "typical" ??

Originally posted by AidenShaw
So, find the real peak numbers for both CPUs, or use the manufacturer's ratings for both. Don't inflate the Intel numbers by some "thumb in the air" factor just to align with your viewpoint.

I remember reading somewhere that Intel thermal design numbers were still about 10-15 watts below "typical". You are right however, there seem to be two numbers regarding a 2Ghz G5: 48 watts and 57 watts. I guessed the latter was peak and the former typical. The adjustment I need to make in my statement in both cases would be to say that a single 3.2Ghz P4 drains about as much power as two 2Ghz G5s.

Take care,

terry
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stupid Question of the Day

Originally posted by Rocketman
I am no electrician. However:

1. A lightbulb generates heat in a very small space (under 1 cubic mm).
2. A lightbulb is optimized to generate light.
3. A lightbulb is not only 60 watts but also 110 volts at 60 hz
4. A processor generates heat in a very wide space with a heat dissipation system in direct contact such as the substrate, the heatsinks, the fans, the case, the table, the room. So the heat distribution is far higher. A lightbulb is in a vacuum ans its external surface is glass which is a near perfect heat transmission medium.
5. A processor is optimized to produce NO light, MINUMUM heat, and mazimum hz (Mhz or ghz to be exact)
6. A processor is not only 60 watts but also 3.3 volts or more recently as low as 1.1 volts at 1-4 Ghz

It is a power and energy DISTRIBUTION problem. The lightbulb is like a girl standing on you with all her weight with a single high heel, vs, a really wide piece of paper double her weight sitting on you. Most of it drapes onto the ground harmless. As for the girl, after you get out of the hospital she owes you a favor. FORCE her to buy you a quad-G6 Powerbook. No not the other thing, it doesn't last long enough :)

Rocketman

Simple terms, simple minds.
The wattage says it all in terms of power. Once you got that number, frequency and voltage are irrelevant (of course for our processors, the important stuff to start with is the voltage and frequency). I don't want to be pedant, but if you were to remove the heatsink on your microprocessor (don't do it, you risk killing your chip) the microprocessor would probably be a lot hotter (might melt?) than the bulb cause the area of contact with the outside is much larger on the bulb (of course it's gonna depend on what type of bulb we are talking about). Hence the need for heatsink, cause then there is direct contact between the chip and the heatsink (actually there is some sort of heat conducing paste/glue between them) which makes it easier for the chip to release its energy, and the heatsink provides the surface to release the heat to the outside world.
 
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