A preowned vehicle prior to sale can brought to a mechanic to be vetted out. Who will a used phone be brought to ensure what is being sold is legitimate?
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iFixit Highlights Apple's Uncertain Right to Repair Stance Through Emails Shared With Judiciary Committee
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I think the law should also shield manufacturers from liability if someone is injured from attempting to repair an item themselves.
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True. Right to Repair would not mean easy to repair.
Right, but that's the risk anyone takes, for any 2nd hand purchase.
Homes - who knows what the previous owner(s) did to it.
Cars - who knows what sort of damage was repaired without going to a mechanic
Computers - who knows it someone spilled coffee on it the previous day
Textiles - who knows if that goodwill item came from a bedbug infested house
Model trains - who knows if someone is selling it due to a botched repair.
Model airplanes - who knows how often the plane has crashed and been rebuilt
DVDs - scratched. Board games - missing pieces.
I'm having trouble thinking of any moderately complex device that you can test and fully trust that test to be in 100% perfect condition. Hell, even brand new iPhones aren't warranted against water damage.
Water and other liquid damage to iPhone or iPod isn't covered by warranty - Apple Support
Service for liquid damage to an iPhone or iPod isn't covered by the Apple One-Year Limited Warranty.
They do
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I completely understand where both sides are coming from. To best resolve this issue, let’s treat smartphones more like cars.
When replacing parts in your car, they don’t have to be OEM, but they have to be certified to work in that car. Some aftermarket parts are superior to OEM, some aftermarket parts are inferior to OEM. When replacing parts in an iPhone, they don’t have to be Apple parts, but they have to be certified by Apple. Some will be superior, some will be inferior, but all will be certified.
Used cars have a CARFAX report. Used iPhones should have a SmartphoneFax report. Every time something is repaired or replaced by a mechanic, it is noted in CARFAX. Every time a phone is repaired, it should be noted whether Apple or an AASP repaired it. If the phone is taken apart and put back together by a non-certified party, that will be listed in the SmartphoneFax.
Used smartphones should be like cars. The SmartphoneFax tells you everything that happened to it. It was either never repaired, only repaired by Apple or AASPs, or repaired by uncertified parties.
If you repaired your phone yourself and nothing is wrong with it, Apple can potentially certify it depending on what was repaired and how well it was done.
People can turn their smartphones into the Apple store and get a new one, just as people can turn in their cars and get a new one. If nothing is wrong with your phone, it is a Certified Pre-Owned device. If something is a little off, it is not a Certified Pre-Owned device. Apple can either refurbish it or sell it cheap, warning a customer it isn’t certified, just like a dealership lot.
Apple can gain market share in lower income areas if they sell CPO devices with only aesthetic damage, just as lower income people buy used cars with aesthetic damage but that work perfectly fine.
If things are done this way, everyone will be happy and no one will be scammed.
When replacing parts in your car, they don’t have to be OEM, but they have to be certified to work in that car. Some aftermarket parts are superior to OEM, some aftermarket parts are inferior to OEM. When replacing parts in an iPhone, they don’t have to be Apple parts, but they have to be certified by Apple. Some will be superior, some will be inferior, but all will be certified.
Used cars have a CARFAX report. Used iPhones should have a SmartphoneFax report. Every time something is repaired or replaced by a mechanic, it is noted in CARFAX. Every time a phone is repaired, it should be noted whether Apple or an AASP repaired it. If the phone is taken apart and put back together by a non-certified party, that will be listed in the SmartphoneFax.
Used smartphones should be like cars. The SmartphoneFax tells you everything that happened to it. It was either never repaired, only repaired by Apple or AASPs, or repaired by uncertified parties.
If you repaired your phone yourself and nothing is wrong with it, Apple can potentially certify it depending on what was repaired and how well it was done.
People can turn their smartphones into the Apple store and get a new one, just as people can turn in their cars and get a new one. If nothing is wrong with your phone, it is a Certified Pre-Owned device. If something is a little off, it is not a Certified Pre-Owned device. Apple can either refurbish it or sell it cheap, warning a customer it isn’t certified, just like a dealership lot.
Apple can gain market share in lower income areas if they sell CPO devices with only aesthetic damage, just as lower income people buy used cars with aesthetic damage but that work perfectly fine.
If things are done this way, everyone will be happy and no one will be scammed.
A company shouldn’t have to tell you how to fix a device they sold you, any more than Coke or KFC should be required to give you their recipes so you can make their product at home. Mandating that a company should have to give away trade secrets, including how to repair their devices or disassemble/reassemble them is not fair. Just because the majority of consumers may want it, doesn’t make it right.
I can’t say I understand all the nuances of RtR, but my concern is that it will start to impact the internal design options available to Apple. I’m quite happy with the quality and level of support I get from Apple. I don’t need to reduce the quality, form, fit or function of my iPhone so I can replace the battery myself once every 3 or 4 years.
Same with my Macs. I haven’t opened them or had a desire to change components since my 2008 Mac Pro. They’ve become appliances with external ports I can use to expand their functionality. Soldering memory down, securing SSDs, whatever else is fine with me if it makes for a better and more reliable overall product. I spend 100% of my time, out to at least 3 or 4 decimal places, using my machine rather than repairing it. Design it for use, not repair. Especially if designing for repair means I have to repair it more often and can only use it full time out to 2 decimal places.
This, and the AppStore debate, are attacks on the Apple business model. I get that some people feel they would be better served, or it would be cheaper, if Apple just introduced hardware into the Wild West. We could install whatever we wanted, we could rip it open, modify it, repair it, etc, etc.
That’s not Apple’s approach— they have an approach that they think provides the best customer experience in a way they find financially sustainable. I’m happy with that model. I’d hate to see it regulated away— especially when they have such a small market share that removing that boutique option for those of us who prefer it doesn’t have a significant impact on the broader industry.
If enough people find Apple’s reliability and repair to be unsatisfactory, they’ll feel it on their bottom line.
I don’t want to live in an iFixit world.
Same with my Macs. I haven’t opened them or had a desire to change components since my 2008 Mac Pro. They’ve become appliances with external ports I can use to expand their functionality. Soldering memory down, securing SSDs, whatever else is fine with me if it makes for a better and more reliable overall product. I spend 100% of my time, out to at least 3 or 4 decimal places, using my machine rather than repairing it. Design it for use, not repair. Especially if designing for repair means I have to repair it more often and can only use it full time out to 2 decimal places.
This, and the AppStore debate, are attacks on the Apple business model. I get that some people feel they would be better served, or it would be cheaper, if Apple just introduced hardware into the Wild West. We could install whatever we wanted, we could rip it open, modify it, repair it, etc, etc.
That’s not Apple’s approach— they have an approach that they think provides the best customer experience in a way they find financially sustainable. I’m happy with that model. I’d hate to see it regulated away— especially when they have such a small market share that removing that boutique option for those of us who prefer it doesn’t have a significant impact on the broader industry.
If enough people find Apple’s reliability and repair to be unsatisfactory, they’ll feel it on their bottom line.
I don’t want to live in an iFixit world.
I have repaired many parts on my cars from just 1 you tube video, most the time I don't even watch the whole video.
Millions of stuff are sold every year w/o having a specialist checking it out. What, we are now only allowed to sell if there's a specialist on hand to vet it? Come on man.. Lets use some common sense. I get you're on Apple side regardless how shady they are.
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I'm telling you. These Apple fans reasoning are insane. They really believe that only Apple has the skills to fix their iphone at insane cost.Right, but that's the risk anyone takes, for any 2nd hand purchase.
Homes - who knows what the previous owner(s) did to it.
Cars - who knows what sort of damage was repaired without going to a mechanic
Computers - who knows it someone spilled coffee on it the previous day
Textiles - who knows if that goodwill item came from a bedbug infested house
Model trains - who knows if someone is selling it due to a botched repair.
Model airplanes - who knows how often the plane has crashed and been rebuilt
DVDs - scratched. Board games - missing pieces.
I'm having trouble thinking of any moderately complex device that you can test and fully trust that test to be in 100% perfect condition. Hell, even brand new iPhones aren't warranted against water damage.
Water and other liquid damage to iPhone or iPod isn't covered by warranty - Apple Support
Service for liquid damage to an iPhone or iPod isn't covered by the Apple One-Year Limited Warranty.support.apple.com
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It about keeping Apple and manufacturers honest.
Apple CEO Tim Cook yesterday testified in front of the U.S. House Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee where he was questioned on Apple's App Store policies, but Congress also released a series of emails that Apple had submitted as part of the ongoing antitrust investigation.
Those emails revealed Apple's thoughts on App Store fees and provided insight into its efforts to negotiate deals with Amazon, but there were also emails on other topics, including the ongoing Right to Repair battle that Apple has been fighting against independent repair shops.
Repair site iFixit is part of the Right to Repair fight and today highlighted Apple's internal discussions about Right to Repair and the context surrounding those discussions, which is an interesting read for those who support the Right to Repair movement.
For those unfamiliar with Right to Repair, it's legislation that mandates that consumers should be able to repair their own devices, and that electronics companies like Apple should provide repair parts and repair manuals to all repair shops, rather than just Apple Authorized Service Providers.
Apple has lobbied heavily against Right to Repair, but internally, emails suggest Apple has been uncertain about its position and how it wants to handle repairs in the future. As an example, Apple scrambled to figure out its narrative when The New York Times in April 2019 wrote an op-ed in favor of the movement.
"The larger issue is that our strategy around all of this is unclear. Right now we're talking out of both sides of our mouth and no one is clear on where we're headed," reads the email.
An internal Apple email on repair shared with the subcommittee
Later in 2019, iFixit discovered iMac repair manuals online and questioned Apple about it. iFixit received no response, but according to the emails shared with Congress, it sparked internal discussion. From an email between Apple PR execs:As it turned out, Apple released the iMac manuals for the EPEAT green certification standard, and not all teams at Apple were aware those manuals were being uploaded nor was everyone in favor of it. Apple did not ultimately remove the manuals, but has not posted further repair instructions online.
Multiple states have introduced Right to Repair legislation, but lobbying from Apple and other companies like John Deere has prevented it from passing. Apple continually cites customer safety as the reason why repairs need to be restricted.
In fact, to persuade California lawmakers not to pass Right to Repair legislation, Apple's lobbyists took apart an iPhone and explained how customers could harm themselves if the lithium-ion battery is punctured. Apple has also said that it wants to assure customers that their products will be "repaired safely and correctly," as the reasoning behind not opening up repairs to all repair shops.
Even as it fights Right to Repair legislation, Apple has been making some moves to attempt to appease those pushing for expanded repair access. Apple in August 2019 introduced an Independent Repair Provider Program that provides independent repair businesses with genuine Apple parts, tools, training and repair manuals, but it does require repair shops to sign onerous contracts to get access.
iFixit does, of course, heavily advocate for Right to Repair policies so the piece on Apple's uncertainty over how to handle the shifting demand for access to repairs is somewhat biased, but the full article is worth a read for those who are interested in better access to repairs.
Article Link: iFixit Highlights Apple's Uncertain Right to Repair Stance Through Emails Shared With Judiciary Committee
The ability to see what failed and how it failed can lead to whether the failure is normal wear and tear or manufacture or design flaw. It would not be in apple interest to tell the world they made a mistake. Who else can you take the device to get a second opinion?
It would be Apple to set repair prices. Dictating whether something is worth repairing or buy new by the cost to repair. It is not in their interest to repair, but rather you buy new. There would be no incentive to make a product as perfect as possible because no one else have to right review it. No outside tracking of failure rate, repair cost, or possible flaw by apple.
I definitely am not saying that. In the scenario one gets a phone fixed by an independent. The independent screws something up. However, the phone is sold (as is: of course), but the seller doesn't say the phone has been repaired and now you are stuck with a lemon. I'll bet this happens more than infrequently.
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No, I do not. if someone wants to get their Apple product fixed outside of Apple guidelines, any problems should left to the owner of the device to deal with.
I suspect that no small part of their reluctance to open up more repair options is that Apple the company gets blamed whenever anything goes wrong no matter who’s at fault. I’ve seen plenty of people here do something stupid and then spin some conspiracy theory about how it’s all part of a dark Apple plot to get more of their money or make them miserable. Think the battery throttling got people up in arms about “planned obsolescence”? Wait until you have a bunch of phone opened by under qualified hacks and suffering ESD exposure. Months later, when the repair is a distant memory, but someone’s phone starts getting flakey around the time of the new iPhone release event, you don’t think we’ll see thread after thread full of YouTube videos about how Apple is intentionally disabling their phones?
It seems the “read the forums and see how many people are complaining” argument stands as proof of wrongdoing in the public eye, even if “how many people” is tens or hundreds out of millions of devices sold.
Somebody does or gets a bad repair, 3 months later the screen glitches, they post a bad photo in a forum, someone else says they have the same problem, then it becomes a YouTube video “Is Apple Killing Your Phone On Purpose?!!!!”, then it makes it to into the news because “people are reporting” is enough to make a story these days. Finally Apple gets 2 or 3 of these devices in hand and find they all have ESD stress to the display controller by people changing batteries on the living room carpet. ”Of course, Apple would say that, wouldn’t they? I don’t even have carpet in my living room!”.
And on, and on, and on.
If it were my company, and I were being held responsible for the quality of my products long after release, then I’d sure as heck want to have control of that quality.
And for the record, these car comparisons are just stupid. We can go back and forth comparing broken analogies forever and never learn anything more than how different the two product cases are.
It seems the “read the forums and see how many people are complaining” argument stands as proof of wrongdoing in the public eye, even if “how many people” is tens or hundreds out of millions of devices sold.
Somebody does or gets a bad repair, 3 months later the screen glitches, they post a bad photo in a forum, someone else says they have the same problem, then it becomes a YouTube video “Is Apple Killing Your Phone On Purpose?!!!!”, then it makes it to into the news because “people are reporting” is enough to make a story these days. Finally Apple gets 2 or 3 of these devices in hand and find they all have ESD stress to the display controller by people changing batteries on the living room carpet. ”Of course, Apple would say that, wouldn’t they? I don’t even have carpet in my living room!”.
And on, and on, and on.
If it were my company, and I were being held responsible for the quality of my products long after release, then I’d sure as heck want to have control of that quality.
And for the record, these car comparisons are just stupid. We can go back and forth comparing broken analogies forever and never learn anything more than how different the two product cases are.
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A complicated matter. At the same time, people should have the right to repair wherever they want. On the other hand, if the devices start to burn and explode, it will be presented in the press as Apple's fault.
Not sure how iFixit is the bad guy here, they're giving you free guides on how to repair your own stuff without having to pay ridiculous money to get it done. Their interest is your interest. But even if right to repair becomes a thing, you can still just pretend it doesn't exist and just, I dunno, flush money down the toilet, if that's what you prefer. But for the rest of us, it's a good thing. Imagine being able to swap out the dead battery in your MacBook Pro yourself, without having to go to Apple, and without having to pry the thing off and use glue solvent. Maybe one day Apple will re-discover pull-tabs or I dunno, screws, making battery replacements a thing again. Crazy stuff, I know, but one day this might be possible, and who knows, maybe even more insane things, like not having to throw the entire computer in the trash if a single key on the keyboard gets a dust particle underneath. I mean, if the computers cost $10, sure, go for it, make them disposable, I can deal with that. Just buy a new one after every page you type, no problem. But at the current price it's not so easy to justify.
Can we clear up one thing: Apple never asked to make fixing your own phone "illegal". The Right to Repair law would force Apple to give repair manuals, access to diagnostic software, tools, and OEM parts to the public.
I think the right to repair law can be good, but there are potential pitfalls. There has to be protection for the manufacturer and more importantly the consumer built in to it. I would propose these caveats:
-Self repair, repair at an unauthorized shop, or use of non-oem parts = voided warranty (same with cars in their warranty period)
-Manufacturer not liable for personal injury sustained during repair attempt
-Manufacturer should not be compelled to change their design strategies in any way to make it easier to disassemble or repair, or to use common tools for repair. If you or your weird uncle Charlie want to fix your phone, you have to figure out how to do it using Apple's service manual with the proper tools. This also applies to soldering memory and SSD to the motherboard: if you don't like that, don't buy a Macbook. There are many other laptop options for you. If this hits Apple's bottom line, they will change their behavior.
-Devices being resold commercially should be somehow labelled or tagged as having been self repaired or repaired with non-oem parts. I like the idea of a "Smartphone-fax" registry to prevent people from getting ripped off.
But I'm sure none of that will stop the percentage of people who would phone Apple or storm into an Apple store demanding something be done about their botched iphone repair for free.
I think the right to repair law can be good, but there are potential pitfalls. There has to be protection for the manufacturer and more importantly the consumer built in to it. I would propose these caveats:
-Self repair, repair at an unauthorized shop, or use of non-oem parts = voided warranty (same with cars in their warranty period)
-Manufacturer not liable for personal injury sustained during repair attempt
-Manufacturer should not be compelled to change their design strategies in any way to make it easier to disassemble or repair, or to use common tools for repair. If you or your weird uncle Charlie want to fix your phone, you have to figure out how to do it using Apple's service manual with the proper tools. This also applies to soldering memory and SSD to the motherboard: if you don't like that, don't buy a Macbook. There are many other laptop options for you. If this hits Apple's bottom line, they will change their behavior.
-Devices being resold commercially should be somehow labelled or tagged as having been self repaired or repaired with non-oem parts. I like the idea of a "Smartphone-fax" registry to prevent people from getting ripped off.
But I'm sure none of that will stop the percentage of people who would phone Apple or storm into an Apple store demanding something be done about their botched iphone repair for free.
I have a serious problem with Apple not allowing reputable service people repair their products.
I've found a lot of people who claim that they can repair products for free, or at the cost of the parts, but that usually isn't true. They don't know enough to do the repair correctly. Often, the repair costs twice as much at a reputable facility.
I've done most of my own work on Macs, since 1993. I've worked on computers since 1981, but I wouldn't work on someone else's equipment. It's better to have someone in the business do that.
However, knowing that someone in the business can't get the parts or has to de-solder RAM or an SSD to replace it, doesn't make sense to me. Apple creates barriers that don't need to exist.
I've found a lot of people who claim that they can repair products for free, or at the cost of the parts, but that usually isn't true. They don't know enough to do the repair correctly. Often, the repair costs twice as much at a reputable facility.
I've done most of my own work on Macs, since 1993. I've worked on computers since 1981, but I wouldn't work on someone else's equipment. It's better to have someone in the business do that.
However, knowing that someone in the business can't get the parts or has to de-solder RAM or an SSD to replace it, doesn't make sense to me. Apple creates barriers that don't need to exist.
It's not brainsurgery. As a competent consumer I think that access to, for example, genuine Apple OEM screens at a fair price should be legally mandated. My 71 year old father replaced two iPhone 6S screens (and a battery) at home, over Xmas - but the screens were not the same quality as the original Apple screens...
Do you realize that right to repair benefits the customer in your hypothetical? With RtR, the independent with access to parts and manuals has a better opportunity of 1. not getting bad parts or 2. screwing up the process by missing a step or two. Without RtR, things will be just like they already are currently. People taking a chance.
I agree that your scenario probably happens more than infrequently. A defeat of RtR would not change that at all. People will continue to do what they've done for decades: repair their own stuff or get an unauthorized repair. It's why there's a repair kiosk or two or three in every mall in America.
Apple has never been on the hook for unauthorized repair. They wouldn't be on the hook for it under RtR either. Not sure why some people (not you) are crafting arguments as if Apple would be held responsible.
I do agree with you that right to repair benefits the customer, when done in an authorized shop. I was referring more to an independent, which could be unauthorized, with my opinion based on the post that I quoted.
Right to Repair would not impact Apple's design. It just means manufacturers would have too make repair info and poissibly prts/ service equipment more broadly available; not make things repairable. Apple could simply design gear so that repairs involve swapping out major components; much like they currently do. Bad batter? Replace entire lower case. Broken screen? Replace entire upper case. Repair parts would be priced accordingly.
I doubt any independent repair shops could afford an inventory to be able too do a fast turnaround. More likely they'll have to order it from Apple and wait for it to get through the supply chain to be able to do the repair. I doubt Apple will stock repair parts in a warehouse to meet 3rd party demand; or sell via their stores to independents. I'm not even sure how much actual repair work Apple does in store anymore anyway. From a supply chain perspective it makes more sense for them to centralize repairs to keep their repair parts inventory at a minimum.
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Going through this thread, I really do not see any of the arguments against right to repair as valid.
These argument do not hold up at all when you replace "iPhone" with other common consumer products.
If some one buys a used iPhone with problems due to a repair, that is just part of the risk of buying a used product. The price should also reflect that. By the way, this has been happening all the time for decades when it comes to used cars.
Maybe it could be dangerous for someone to work on their iPhone, but it could be much more dangerous for someone working on their car. Honestly, it could be much more dangerous cooking dinner on a grill.
If someone repairs their iPhone, and something unrelated to that repair breaks on the iPhone that is still under warranty, Apple is legally obligated to honor the warranty claim (at least in the US). Just like your car's warranty. If you do your own oil changes, and a window regulator goes bad, the dealership cannot legally deny a warranty claim because you do your own oil changes.
These argument do not hold up at all when you replace "iPhone" with other common consumer products.
If some one buys a used iPhone with problems due to a repair, that is just part of the risk of buying a used product. The price should also reflect that. By the way, this has been happening all the time for decades when it comes to used cars.
Maybe it could be dangerous for someone to work on their iPhone, but it could be much more dangerous for someone working on their car. Honestly, it could be much more dangerous cooking dinner on a grill.
If someone repairs their iPhone, and something unrelated to that repair breaks on the iPhone that is still under warranty, Apple is legally obligated to honor the warranty claim (at least in the US). Just like your car's warranty. If you do your own oil changes, and a window regulator goes bad, the dealership cannot legally deny a warranty claim because you do your own oil changes.
While I agree with you, it's a lot easier to mess up an iPhone or Mac repair than a car repair do to the interconnectivity of the parts. I can easily do a brake job knowing it will have no impact on the car's electrical system; but disassembliong an iPhone and prying out a battery requires removing a lot of things that are separate from the battery in terms of needing to be worked on to affect a repair. That makes it a lot easier for Apple top claim a faulty repair broke something else than on a car.
Exactly, and if people are allowed to repair their own cars they should certainly be allowed to repair their own phones. The former is more dangerous and much more expensive if something goes wrong. Jack up your car improperly or buy cheap, faulty jack stands and you could be killed.
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Car repair requires more specialty tools and far more extensive knowledge than phone repair does. I replaced my own timing belt and water pump last year saving myself about $1000 in labor. I'd never done it before and was taking an expensive risk because if I screwed up I'd have had to replace the engine, turning my $1000 in savings into thousands of dollars in additional costs. That was my risk to take though and people should be allowed to take that risk with their property. Right to repair laws can easily include language not allowing someone to go crying to the manufacturer for free repairs when they botch they're own fix. Just like my auto maker wouldn't have been supplying me with a free engine if I had screwed up.