Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I’m curious what the statistics are on Mac hardware repair performed by the user. My guess is that it is pretty low,
Most likely, but that is not the point.
as these are premium products where users are more likely to ”take it somewhere” if there’s a problem.
Which Apple restricts due to its practices
If the percentage is really low, why design your products for a scenario that doesn’t hold much value to the customer?
If it is hard for Apple to repair or a third party then it is more costly for the consumer. Costs are always passed on.
There’s also an aspect of getting authorized/legitimate parts in a world of knock-off batteries, cables, adapters, etc. It starts making the case for authorized repair agents.
An issue in any field, but not a reason to restrict right to repair. Look at laws for car dealerships.
And someone who builds their own PCs is probably never going to consider a Mac.
Irrelevant.
Security is certainly a factor as well, especially as we store more personal information on these devices. Thieves bypassing TouchID could get to a whole trove of info—from passwords to all your accounts to payment and personal info. I had my home cleaned out once, and it’s no fun trying to be a step ahead of the thief, especially when it takes days to realize what all you have lost. Not to mention that you don’t want your security measures serviceable by just anyone.
You don't have to design a machine that is hard to repair to have security
 
You think it's hard to repair now, wait until they roll out A12 laptops and desktops. Probably get a zero score from ifixit.
How so? Perhaps the SOC couldn’t be replaced, but such a failure is quite unlikely. If the parts that are prone to failure or damage can be replaced (display, keyboard, battery), then the score should still be the same as it is today. Besides, most laptops and tablets today have soldered CPUs, RAM, and often storage. An A12 MacBook wouldn’t be a departure here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JosephAW
I keep reading this about “paperweight” for a machine that’s 5-7yrs old.

What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

Back in 2008 I purchased a Ti_Book (PowerBook titanium) G4 at 450Mhz with 1GB RAM and 50GB HDD as a primary machine to refresh my skills in OSX after 2yr a sense from that OS at that time. Safari could not be updated and it was VERY evident that surfing pages using Flash was a serious pain! Performance in loading the page was super slow like AOL 1997 painfully slow!! This was just web browsing; email worked yet again very slow 10Mb/speeds (I’m not sure it had 100mb/s connectivity).

I love that machine which was heavily damaged while moving. I’ll buy another in mint condition if I come across it again for nostalgic reasons but I’m NOT expecting anything more than email capability with it. I can’t even imagine back in 2002 what performance early FCP admins got out of it ... it’s unfathomable.

Of course software and web HTML5 technologies seems to be stabilizing and not jumping about as fast as early 2000’ but I have to ask you what kind of performance do you expect out of a 5-7yr old machine with what is unknown in that timeframe?
You do realize Apple is currently selling MacPros released in 2013 as new in 2018 right? That is 5 years.
 
While nobody is faulting them for protecting the encryption aspects, including the "Top Case" which includes, keyboard, trackpad, SPEAKER, in the list of things you can't repair is ridiculous. How does replacing a speaker or trackpad have anything to do with protecting the encryption and user data?

Right on, changing those things have nothing to do with security, but revenue.

Totalitarians know that pushing the Security button on people makes us roll over.
No one dares argue against "security."
But it's really just another Big Lie.
 
I really miss the days of Macs being user upgradeable. I had both a 2006 Macbook and 2011 Macbook Pro and upgraded both the ram and HDD/SSD on both of them. The only thing I can possibly do on my 2014 MBP is upgrade the SSD and the only place to find them that I know of is OWC. A 480GB SSD from them is $323 Canadian. That's pretty pricy. Buying Ram or SSD exclusively from Apple at the time of purchasing a Mac means they can change whatever they want. Allowing these and other parts to be upgraded by the user means that multiple companies can make them. That means lower cost due to competition. I still remember Steve Jobs touting the fact that the Power Mac tower side panel could be opened and just about any part could be upgraded or replaced by the user. Those are the kinds of Macs we need again. Sadly Apple is obsessed with "thin and light". Last I checked the iMac or Mac Pro doesn't need to be thin and light. They're freakin' desktops for crying out loud.
 
Then why are you even here, in a community of people enthusiastic for such “evil and greedy” company? Please be offended and leave.

Because I've invested years into OS X, long before Apple turned into the scumbag company it's become today. And why should I leave? Why don't you, since you clearly prefer echo chambers over rational thought? Seems like you're the one with the problem, not me.
 
What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

Well, lately, progression has definitely been slower than, say, a decade ago. This means a 2012-2013 MBP isn't THAT much slower than a 2018 one in general. The last real jump in speed (over 2 times!) was the C2D -> Core i switch in 2010.

Who knows what the future brings... but given the comparatively slow pace of progression now, I'd say a 2018 MBP will be perfectly usable and won't be MUCH slower than a 2024 one.
 
No 1 in the Apple Fan Resonse book: If you don't like it buy another brand.

Some people are also Apple Apologists.

Apple started moving to devices as appliances more than a decade ago. For instance, the first iPhone had no removable battery and no expandable storage. I believe a year later the MacBook Pro's batteries became sealed and in 2012 the RAM became soldered and the hard drive became incredibly difficult to remove. And so on and so forth.

Yet people continue to howl about a situation that dates back multiple US Presidential administrations and a decade worth of Super Bowl winners. It doesn't take an "apologist" to point out juvenile and worthless whining. Give it a rest or buy something else.

The Apple products you could tinker with went away a long time ago and they are not coming back.
 
Louis Rossman is surely making a video on this so he can further highlight his farcical disdain for Apple.
The beauty of the internet is availability of information so one can make a choice. If this "restriction" is indeed implemented and it goes against your grain, buy elsewhere.
 
What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

These aren't G4s. Those were slow when they were brand new. Everything made after 2010 has a second gen Core i5 or i7 processor and until this year, 7 years later, they were still competitive. Even now you're talking about machines that are still significantly faster than a Macbook and not far off a Macbook Pro. 7 year old machines... still viable, and totally out of support.
 
I keep reading this about “paperweight” for a machine that’s 5-7yrs old.

Of course software and web HTML5 technologies seems to be stabilizing and not jumping about as fast as early 2000’ but I have to ask you what kind of performance do you expect out of a 5-7yr old machine with what is unknown in that timeframe?

I use a 2008 Mac Pro running El Capitan every day. It works beautifully. But for the lack of security updates (which should be provided as a matter of law until the machine dies, NOT when Apple decide they want to force me to upgrade). The machine is perfectly useable. Why should I consign a functioning machine to landfill merely to prop up a company that has more money stashed (that it doesn't know what to do with) than any other commercial entity in history?
I love Apple products and the whole integrated ecosystem thing, but their attitude to repairs and obsolescence is appalling. Pure highway robbery.
 
The things that most people do with computers:

Web, games, email, spreadsheets
Those needs are covered today by a €350 iPad. You can buy a new one each year and in 7 year’s time you’ll still have spent less than what you otherwise would have on a MBP. + the benefits of having the last gear instead of a 7-year-old computer. Get a cheap bluetooth keyboard for the longer documents you need to write and you are all set.

People are really blowing it out of proportion. My personal example. I have a 2010 21.5” iMac. Yes it does searve my computational needs - nowadays I use it mostly for Cubase which I use to process the midi files from my synthesizer. Facebook, browsing, emails, documents, etc. have long been relegated to the iPad, in fact, the iPad is more suitable for those tasks than the iMac which I switch on very rarely

In the mean time, the iMac got a 4/5k display, SSD/fusion drive, USB3 / thunderbolt, much faster CPUs. Technologically speaking, it is worth upgrading to a new machine.
 
Apple started moving to devices as appliances more than a decade ago. For instance, the first iPhone had no removable battery and no expandable storage. I believe a year later the MacBook Pro's batteries became sealed and in 2012 the RAM became soldered and the hard drive became incredibly difficult to remove. And so on and so forth.

Yet people continue to howl about a situation that dates back multiple US Presidential administrations and a decade worth of Super Bowl winners. It doesn't take an "apologist" to point out juvenile and worthless whining. Give it a rest or buy something else.

The Apple products you could tinker with went away a long time ago and they are not coming back.
Juvenile, whining, give it a rest?
Fall out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?
People are allowed to complain about valid things.
Who wants to buy a new computer when they upgrade a version of software that needs more memory.
You prove the point that you are an apple apologist quite nicely.

People kept complaining about slow upgrades, Apple did something about it and made iOS 12 faster for older devices.
Complaining where Apple can see it is the way to go. Doesn't matter if you don't like it.
I could stoop to your level and use words like juvenile, but I will resist the temptation and not chat to you again unless you are more civil.
 
This is just the beginning. Just wait til Apple does something to iPhones. You crack your LCD and you'll have to throw it AWAY and get a new one because of "Apple Secure Enclave being disabled from attempted repair blah blah blah". If I have a machine or phone then I reserve the right to work on it. Period. I'm now glad to have an older MacBook Pro where I can do my own work. It's already got 16gb RAM. Toss in a SSD and a new battery and I'm good to go.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aston441
Juvenile, whining, give it a rest?
Fall out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?
People are allowed to complain about valid things.
Who wants to buy a new computer when they upgrade a version of software that needs more memory.
You prove the point that you are an apple apologist quite nicely.

People kept complaining about slow upgrades, Apple did something about it and made iOS 12 faster for older devices.
Complaining where Apple can see it is the way to go. Doesn't matter if you don't like it.
I could stoop to your level and use words like juvenile, but I will resist the temptation and not chat to you again unless you are more civil.
Don’t care.
 
I keep reading this about “paperweight” for a machine that’s 5-7yrs old.

What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

Back in 2008 I purchased a Ti_Book (PowerBook titanium) G4 at 450Mhz with 1GB RAM and 50GB HDD as a primary machine to refresh my skills in OSX after 2yr a sense from that OS at that time. Safari could not be updated and it was VERY evident that surfing pages using Flash was a serious pain! Performance in loading the page was super slow like AOL 1997 painfully slow!! This was just web browsing; email worked yet again very slow 10Mb/speeds (I’m not sure it had 100mb/s connectivity).

I love that machine which was heavily damaged while moving. I’ll buy another in mint condition if I come across it again for nostalgic reasons but I’m NOT expecting anything more than email capability with it. I can’t even imagine back in 2002 what performance early FCP admins got out of it ... it’s unfathomable.

Of course software and web HTML5 technologies seems to be stabilizing and not jumping about as fast as early 2000’ but I have to ask you what kind of performance do you expect out of a 5-7yr old machine with what is unknown in that timeframe?

Well I for one, make a living on a 2009 ssd upgraded Imac, and Its doing just fine. In fact I see no reason to upgrade it yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WatchFromAfar
You really are blowing things up out of proportion. There's an Apple-certified course to become an accredited repairer. It costs $150.

That doesn't even begin to cover the costs of becoming an accredited repairer:

- $299 for access to AppleCare Technician Training materials
- Around $150 per exam, of which there are two. Apple Certified Mac Technician and macOS Support Essentials. Three if you also include Apple Certified iOS Technician.
- Around $100,000 or more to establish a dedicated service location (residential addresses are not permitted), establish a credit line for parts, fit a shop to comply with Apple's look and feel guidelines, produce marketing materials as per Apple's guidelines, purchase required tools, fixtures and equipment, and construct a secure storage area for stock parts - according to Apple's AASP guidelines.

Of course Apple needs to approve your request as well, which they rarely do.

After all that, then you have access to some service documentation and the ability to order service parts.

Just a little bit more than $150.
 
I keep reading this about “paperweight” for a machine that’s 5-7yrs old.

What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

Back in 2008 I purchased a Ti_Book (PowerBook titanium) G4 at 450Mhz with 1GB RAM and 50GB HDD as a primary machine to refresh my skills in OSX after 2yr a sense from that OS at that time. Safari could not be updated and it was VERY evident that surfing pages using Flash was a serious pain! Performance in loading the page was super slow like AOL 1997 painfully slow!! This was just web browsing; email worked yet again very slow 10Mb/speeds (I’m not sure it had 100mb/s connectivity).

I love that machine which was heavily damaged while moving. I’ll buy another in mint condition if I come across it again for nostalgic reasons but I’m NOT expecting anything more than email capability with it. I can’t even imagine back in 2002 what performance early FCP admins got out of it ... it’s unfathomable.

Of course software and web HTML5 technologies seems to be stabilizing and not jumping about as fast as early 2000’ but I have to ask you what kind of performance do you expect out of a 5-7yr old machine with what is unknown in that timeframe?

My 2012 MacBook Pro has a SSD and 16 Gigs of RAM. Runs like a champ. Can even play Civ IV, WOT and WOWS! Don’t plan to upgrade since there is no worthy successor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nvmls and Aston441
I keep reading this about “paperweight” for a machine that’s 5-7yrs old.

What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change,
Well exactly the same performance it has now? Other software may change but if that machine can run program "X" now it should run it until the end of time
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aston441
If in 2008 you purchased a used PowerPC G4, when the switch to Intel had already happened 2 years prior, well then that's your own stupidity for investing in an obsoleted CPU architecture.

Wow such ignorance and illiteracy. I stated I purchased it to get familiar with OSX after being away for a few years. I never stated I expected decent performance from it! I stated how the current use of it vs when it debuted that I experienced.

When did I ever stated it was expected to perform the way it did when it debuted? I think the stupidity is in your lack of comprehension of what you read.


Actually the performance deltas in the last few years has been pretty marginal. CPU makers have been focusing on efficiency rather than brute power. I have a 2009 15” Macbook pro and 2013 13” MBP and they are both functional and more than usable to this day.

They both cannot be “more useable” today vs still usable. Are you really saying and believing each machines performance has increased since their debut?
[doublepost=1538900273][/doublepost]
Wouldn't matter if it were, Apple solders ram and SSD into almost all computers now a days

Therein lies the point of my posts. In roughly 5-7yrs the performance anyone should expect of running modern software and web experiences will not actually live up to those expectations.

The worry of an iMac Pro or 2018 MBP is due to those components non-upgradeable that repairs will not be valid. The real worry is obsolescence occurs much sooner than 7yrs “Vintage” status.
[doublepost=1538900376][/doublepost]
Well I for one, make a living on a 2009 ssd upgraded Imac, and Its doing just fine. In fact I see no reason to upgrade it yet.

That’s your prerogative. I never asked that of you. You’re missing the point of the thread and the debat at hand. ;) I’m glad you don’t have to upgrade. Sales reps may not like you but repair technicians would love you.
 
Yet another "lovely" "benefit" of the T2 chip. In the name of "security", you only get to repair your machine on Apple's watch. Thereby making it a paperweight if anything goes wrong once it's deemed obsolete in 5-7 years. "But think of the security benefits!" People will seriously embrace all kinds of stupid in the name of security.

Getting 5 to 7 years support out of any piece of technology is amazing. Hardly a valid complaint.
 
Incorrect.

Flash on the web was heavily used for a LOT of sites in 2008. Not so much today in 2018. The background code on sites is becoming increasingly HTML 5 back in 2008 HTML 4 was becoming heavily mainstream. JavaScript also heavily changed since then.

Email: web based was starting to become popular (yahoo and gmail), yet apps have heavily changed Outlook especially for POP3/IMAP (3/4) snd Exchange for push was heavily different form today using active sync. In fact back in 2008 activesync used sms for pull/push requests to be completed and failed in persona ce against BlackBerry and BES or BIS services. Don’t come at me with email not being changed if you’ve never supported personal and corporate email.

Games: heavily changed LOL. 8MB ram was the norm on laptops for GPU and up to 64MB. Today we’re getting 2GB of video RAM for GPU and we never had integrated GPU on CPU dies!! So what you talking bout Willis!??!

Spreadsheets have changed as well as the add-ins many people use in the corporate office. Heck even Googles Sheets now supports add-ins!! Come on man try a little harder please?!

Nowdays most of software is form over factor and not optimized. Created because developers need to create quickly and in easy way. Large installers, file size while in fact most of us use computers for trivial things like web browsing and web browsers slow down not due to content (Flash or Java was created long time ago) but due to amount of ads, videos that start without any permission and size of pictures. We have multicore CPUs but most of apps still do not use it in efficient way. I am not a professional photographer but made a lot of advanced operations in Adobe Photoshop 6 and 7 so cannot believe that young Insta users need xx GB install using 64GB RAM and CUDA to edit another zillion selfie. They are just lazy to get the same effect after 10 seconds later or to learn 10 steps more. Most of old computers could be still used even on old systems but they are just not supported and this is really stupid that Microsoft killed Windows XP or 7 in the same fashion like Apple killed Mavericks or Mountain Lion using terms "evolution" and "security". But nobody takes care about environment. Software can be adopted to hardware so hardware might be still used if your OS support web browser and it is supported by Apple or Microsoft. I do not need a 85W brick that powers hexacore CPU to browse web.
 
What kind of performance do you expect a computer to have in 5-7yrs from now? Web technologies most likely will change, software component requirements not to mention security updates may no longer be available by Apple in this case for a machine that old.

My main MAC is a mid 2012 MacBook Pro which I use intensively.

Computer performance leaps are slowing right down. Things should be lasting longer and longer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Handsome Bacon
Yet another "lovely" "benefit" of the T2 chip. In the name of "security", you only get to repair your machine on Apple's watch. Thereby making it a paperweight if anything goes wrong once it's deemed obsolete in 5-7 years. "But think of the security benefits!" People will seriously embrace all kinds of stupid in the name of security.

More like are easily sidelined and hoodwinked under the spell of ‘its for security’ BS, whilst Apples profits go ever higher.... as a convenient side effect of forced repairs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yebubbleman
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.