Windows 10 on my unsupported 2008 Macbook White (without proper drivers) on as slow SSD is about as fast as my 2012 Macbook Pro with a fast SSD (El Capitan).
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iFixit Teardown of New 21.5-Inch 4K iMac Reveals DCI-P3 Display, Empty Solder Pads
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Windows 10 on my unsupported 2008 Macbook White (without proper drivers) on as slow SSD is about as fast as my 2012 Macbook Pro with a fast SSD (El Capitan).
We on here are all relatively tech savvy people who, if we can afford it or don't care about throwing silly money away needlessly, could BTO when ordering and get the best, biggest, most future proof Mac we could at the time of ordering. This is true. However I still maintain a lot of Mac sales are being done through the stores where there is no BTO option. All there is is the option to move up models, and no Blue Shirt (or whatever colour they are right now) will tell people that the £1000 model (a big chunk of someone's salary even today) they are looking at is terrible, underpowered, won't be able to keep up out of the box and definitely will be struggling in 2-3 years with the only option being buy a new one. If the customer comes in looking for the most affordable Mac they can get, that is what they'll walk out with because chances are if someone tried to talk them into spending more money they'd probably leave without a sale and walk across to PC World and see what they've got for £1000.
People shouldn't have to order online and pay ridiculous BTO prices just to get a machine that they should be getting at the original price.
You linked three charts where apple stands out as the more reliable than any other vendors...
Your point is ?
Still anecdotal evidence.... Apple sold millions of devices, if you see ten people waiting for a Genius appointment , the same store probably have a thousand happy customers at home enjoying their iDevices....
Common...
Left me give you another set of "anecdotes":
Companies that are great with problem solving methodologies can find the root cause in hours, days, a few weeks, a couple months. We are talking here about solving a manufacturing quality spill, not finding the cure for Cancer. It takes Apple for certain issues years to first acknowledge the issue, as well as to implement a preventive action.
That they have great policies to replace the broken device with another one is another story, when in reality they do a really poor job executing their problem solving process. And there is no guarantee that the problem will not happen again to the same customer as what they typically give you is a replacement device containing the same design flaw or coming from the same manufacturing process that has their share of variation.
I see that you are in Italy, and there is no way you had received the first shipments of Apple products when there is new product launch, most of them come to the US first, and in Europe probably to other countries to before they get to Italy, so I give you that that you may receive different batches of production therefore you experience a lower probability to get products from the production mess that Apple OEMs go thru when launching new products.
Additionally design problems should be caught during product development and validation testing at the latest, not by the early adopter loyal customers.
Please check back my previous posts, don't even bother reading my comments again, as I am sure you read them pretty well, but as you had demonstrated refuse to acknowledge reality, go to Apple's own support website and do a search about how many 'anecdotal' cases are out there.
Apple is great quality company, I give you that, but to me it means that they provide great return on the investment to the shareholders, there is no doubt about it. You are confusing the quality of the product and the manufacturing process used to engineer, design, develop, launch and improve them with the company image, the perception of customers that came to Apple just a few years ago and their economical performance plus some surveys that reflect on how well the treat their customers when they face a difficulty (which is better than any other consumer electronics company out there).
I'm finding more annoying than the actual Apple product's quality issues the fact that there are plenty of customers that have so low quality standards and refuse to accept the reality, Apple's manufacturing quality is subpar and they have a solid record of being mediocre at actually resolving the root cause of the problems.
Robust products work well always, they withstand regular use and abuse.
Please go to your nearest Apple Store and try to get an appointment at the Genius Bar while you are there, count how many customers are actually waiting vs those that are actually buying.
Same for the forums: a lot of people join these forums because they have problems, and some people are very vocal and joined multiple forums. There is very few people, geeks aside, that subscribe on a support forum to write: I'm very happy about my iMac.
Are you serious ?Anecdotal survey results from Consumer Reports
View attachment 593429
Please enlighten us with you analysis of the chart.
Have fun
From your link, Apple stands out as being more reliable than any other brand .....
Sure. I'm not always supporting Apple...
And I'm being quite vocal about their price policy outside US...
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This is very interesting and I haven't seen this data before, thanks!
The thing I would like to know, though, cannot be measured. I would like to know the satisfaction rating three years in. You know, when people with Dells go "hey, I can install an SSD, that's cool!" and people with iMac go "uhhh I guess I'll buy a new one once my kidney sells on eBay". But those things cannot be compared because of operating systems. If I had to use a Windows machine I wouldn't be pleased (I have enough "fun" trying to figure out Windows quirks on my partner's VirtualBox – he needs Windows for one of the programs he uses which only has a Windows version). No matter how expandable, fast, pretty the Windows machine was, I would not be happy about it because I want Mac OS. So to get a proper survey one would have to compare Apple products with Hackintoshes, and I think there's a bigger chance of The Smiths reforming in original line-up than that survey happening.
I gotta say. One thing I do like about a Mac is that it’s a breeze to use both Windows and OSX. Is that worth the Apple Tax?This is very interesting and I haven't seen this data before, thanks!
The thing I would like to know, though, cannot be measured. I would like to know the satisfaction rating three years in. You know, when people with Dells go "hey, I can install an SSD, that's cool!" and people with iMac go "uhhh I guess I'll buy a new one once my kidney sells on eBay". But those things cannot be compared because of operating systems. If I had to use a Windows machine I wouldn't be pleased (I have enough "fun" trying to figure out Windows quirks on my partner's VirtualBox – he needs Windows for one of the programs he uses which only has a Windows version). No matter how expandable, fast, pretty the Windows machine was, I would not be happy about it because I want Mac OS. So to get a proper survey one would have to compare Apple products with Hackintoshes, and I think there's a bigger chance of The Smiths reforming in original line-up than that survey happening.
There was a time when I’d give that an unequivocal yes, I’m beginning to think less so these days.
Each OS has its annoyances.
For me one of my Windows gripes - Windows just isn’t particularly nice. Functional, very. Nice, not really.
For me one of my Mac gripes - File copy operations. Copy a large file in the order of 10s of GB, click the stop button after a while and watch the OS sit there stopping…. for ages. Doesn’t happen all the time admittedly.
That comment was in support of you mate. While you can be very pro apple at times, you also see faults and are vocal about it.
I think that it's just that the Apple Reality Distortion Field is still very strong with some people.
I also miss the old Apple and old Macs of circa 2010. Back then I could buy my girlfriend a 5 year old white Macbook, buy some RAM and make it a good computing experience for her that lasted another 2,5 years. And for a fair price. And then I sold without even losing money to another happy customer who wanted her first Mac without selling all her belongings (Mac are really expensive in Poland in relation to salaries).
Same with my 15 and 13 inch unibody Macbook Pros - threw in a SSD and upgraded RAM to 8GB and they were a joy to work and play with until I sold them last year for a Retina MPB.
Also Apple's software side seemed more polished back then (I would say until Lion). Maybe it's subjective because at that time I was freshly converted from Windows and OS X just seemed like being in a totally different league, but objectively I had far less day-to-day hiccups and issues (WiFi, iTunes, iPhone syncing). I just felt that I can trust my Mac, like when being on the road. Nowadays I am not so confident, because things just tend to go wrong when troubleshooting your computer is the last thing you have time for - like working on an university campus and you get iPhone's hotspot not working, original Apple lightning cable not charging from Mac's USB ports when on the road, iTunes sync going wrong leaving the music on my iPhone unavailable just when I want it for a road trip back home, so I have to waste hours restoring the phone instead of relaxing. And so on.
Macs are still nice and perform well most of the time, but in my experience that "most of the time" has decreased over the last few years. I feel that the only thing that's keeping me with Apple is the investment: I have too many gadgets and accessories bought "for" my Apple environment to jump ships. It may sound weird, but previously I could justify buying Apple stuff, because it made me feel safe in terms of reliability. But now it's just the money I had spend Apple products that keep me in their ecosystem. Getting a new iPhone after my 6 gets paid off will be harder for me, especially with what that other companies deliver now (Android, Microsoft) on both software and hardware side, that's just as functional (if not more) and more customizable and (mostly) cheaper than Apple's offerings. Sure, the design isn't that nice and things may not go so well together, but that wasn't the my main reason for going Apple and it won't be the reason that keeps me giving them my hard earned money.
PS. And as for the pricing...Like I said — it's ARDF.
iPhone: $649 flagship phone with 16GB of storage... in 2015. Some will still defend that as if they didn't want to get better value for their money. Of course it may be enough. But damn it, it's not a $100 feature phone. It's a premium phone. If you bought a premium car you definitely get more luxury (and over the top features) than you need or may ever use. But you pay more to get more and have the comfort of knowing that you can get massage in your car if you ever wish to.
Apple's pricing patterns are so obviously greedy that it's just disgusting. Most people feel that Macs are overpriced. But there was a feeling that you were getting something better and something premium for that extra dough. You paid a higher price, but the products you bought from Apple still gave a god experience. You could had gotten a lower specced Mac, update it down the road when it was becoming slow and then sell it for a good price to someone who could still get some years of decent usage and performance.
Now, not only the some entry-level models have laughable specs with seriously absurd price tags, they can't be upgraded — and the time for upgrade will come really soon. Because a $1500 iMac with a HDD will be a half-cooked experience from day one of your usage.
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Actually, it's not anecdotal evidence.
Current story on the homepage supports his post
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...k-pro-anti-reflective-coating-issues.1929559/
Takes apple three years to acknowledge the fault, they will only fix the issue if you complain, and will not acknowledge the issue exists on thier website/support pages. That is lame.... Sure us forum dwellers can get thier machines repaired, but what about the average customer? Of those millions sold, X amount with damaged screen who are outside thier warranty periods, many 12 months, and not aware thier screens will be replaced by apple.
In some ways, we need these forum trouble makers to highlight these issues, than we need the press to jump over it , just so the poor average joe can be informed they can have thier device fixed.
I am very disappointed how apple is putting sales ahead of customer support in these intances, and that it takes years for apple to acknowledge an issue, hoping you have moved on and bought a replacement. This Bean-counter approach will back fire.
Re-read what mcgiord posted and apply the case study of the reflective coating.
My point is to use these surveys data to analyze them and foster more discussion with your interpretation and analysis of them, as well as from other MacRumors members.
The dreaded beach ball or unresponsive Finder is a typical experience I had with Mavericks and Yosemite when my iMac is trying to wake up or connect to external drives via USB, I think due to a mess up spotlight implementation of disks indexing, which my work better with the crop of recent MacBooks with SSDs and no spinning drives connected at all. I will see if this behavior changes when moving to El Capitan.
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Before I switched back to a real PC for Windows I also noticed that W8.1 on a 2012 mini loaded on the EOM HDD felt about as snappy as OS X on a Crucial M500 SSD. Now I've got El Capitan on the mini. It works pretty good but really bogs down on the database Apple aps like Photos, Aperture and iTunes.
In all honesty I think apple won't skip a beat with sales. The frustration being vented here is something that most consumers are unaware of. That is, most couldn't tell you what an iGPU is, or what exactly a fusion drive is. They need a computer and Apple has great computers.
I think when you peel back the layers you see apple cutting corners in the name of profit, but so far I don't think it will cause any short term issues.
One aspect of those comparisons that I cannot find is a comparison by price. Macs are high-end and expensive compared to the typical Best Buy cheapo PC. It would be interesting to see Macs compared to similarly priced PCs. For example HP Z series against iMac and mac Pros for longevity and reliability.
El Cap is a nice improvement over Yosemite. I'm not noticing any performance issues. I've moved on from Aperture (which I loved) to Lightroom. Its performance under El Cap is very good, so I think if you're seeing any issues with performance in those apps, it may be those apps and not El Cp.
Interesting, that would explain why my Mac mini runs like a dog on OS X with a spinner. Have not run Windows on a spinner for a very long time so cannot compare. My iMac also runs badly on a spinner. I might install win 10 on a spinner in my desktop to compare when I have time.
Unfortunately I agree with you. Their sales won't suffer at all especially with first, or maybe second, time buyers. These people won't realise there's something not as advertised or magical until they try putting load on these systems. I have no doubt that for the majority of people these iMacs etc will still be perfectly fine machines, but pushing 4 & 5k displays while trying to load up large Photos libraries will I think cause at least some slow downs. Especially if that library is being pulled off a 5400rpm drive. Now, 2 years down the line and they think "hmmm, I could do with speeding this up a bit. Well, I know my son/daughter did something to my last computer that made it quicker. I'll ask them to do it again". I think that's when these chickens will come home to roost on Apple when these people start being told they really need to buy a new one or should have spent silly money 2 years ago to make sure they got the most use out of it.
Some of these BTO models are the price of half decent second hand cars, and I wouldn't want to be changing one of those every 2-3 years just because it got a flat tyre or needed a new battery and I couldn't change it.
Yes I'm serious.
I will spell it out for you: the charts are biased and only reflect a subset of the population data.
They reflect only responses from customers whom had an issue that wasn't covered by warranty or AppleCare. Apple competitors are not as successful as Apple when selling their extended warranty plans.
So as many here suggest and are fully convinced if you buy an Apple product you have to also get Apple Care otherwise you will regret it. It's a very lucrative and smart business model for Apple, they get "happy" customers to help them do validation testing and get a nice revenue out of it, plus word of mouth of how magically nice the Genius Bar experience was, because "I made the smart move back then when I bought Apple Care".
every time they get a customer back at the store they increased the store traffic and will have better chances of selling more things.
Very few of the other brand have a nice chain of retail stores like Apple nor a loyal customer base that comes back to periodically buy extended warranty services and every single device out there.
It's pretty obvious that you pick and choose what to respond to, and avoid the topics that are presented to you.
Apple manufacturing quality is terrible.
I don't have historical data, but surely with the massive increases in production volumes the manufacturing quality level is deteriorating.
Clear evidence is that Apple had no other alternative but to start publishing them on Apple.com; we have to recognize that they had moved towards acknowledging more issues than what they used to do in the past, but recognizing then is only the initial phase of a real quality improvement move, actual prevention is the key but it will hurt their store traffic and Apple Care revenue numbers.
All the signs show that revenue and profit are the top priority in the Mac product line, putting reliability and product quality in the back burner.
Power chime...But enough about Apple Car
...Airbag check......chime...spinning ball...call Apple Care...Sadly you are right. It will hurt in the long run if they only continue to offer subpar entry models as their low tier models. But they do have their numbers very clear on when to release a new model that will entice new customers to get into the Apple world as well as when to have their loyal long term customers buying again.
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I think compared to other all-in-ones iMacs have the best displays, audio quality, build quality, and they run OS X. Are there any all-in-ones with the PPI of the retina iMacs?
I agree, which is why making a decision for a desktop replacement is so difficult. Apple does have a nice product, but they cut some corners imo.
I've been out of the PC market far too long so I have no idea about Dell and HP, but just eye balling them, the only machines that seem to fit the bill are desktop machines not AIO and I'd need to buy a monitor.
Apple has spoiled me in that the mentality of getting a very good product was a few clicks away on apple.com
This is exactly it pard. I was going to get rid of this one until I put osx on an ssd and 10 runs faster on the spinner I took osx off of. Not just startups, imovie took 26 icon bumps to start up and now it takes 2, but in everything. Runs within the apps a lot better.
OSX is not good on these old 5400 spinners apple is still putting. To a lesser level I upgraded my memory fro 4gb to 16 and it also made a difference. My 4gb was always running at 99% and sometimes apps would force close. Now no more force closes and right now just posting here and nothing else it's just about 8gb of memory so I will disagree when someone comes along and says 4 is enough.
I agree with you but the only way to go with pc is to build your own. Not hard and blows everything else out there away in term of quality parts, apple also uses stock parts and foxconn motherboards so they are not really any better. Give me a build with an asus motherboard and name brand parts any day when it comes to windows. I have never bought a pre built windows desktop, have built since before windows...dos. I still have an old one somewhere, but have not had a windows desktop for 5-6 years. For years I had a monster inwin tower case that I just upgraded parts in every few years instead of having to buy a new computer. It's really the best way to go with windows.
I think it's time to build another though. The dell ultrasharp monitors or hp envy ones are 2 monitors I would consider. Both at least as good as the thunderbolt monitor apple refuses to upgrade and half as much, if they ever do that may change at least in the quality department.
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Why only forum users ? Every customer going to an Apple Store with this defect will have his MacBook repaired, even if out of warranty (at least for another year).
What's wrong with that ?
And it's not really three years... The issue went widespread in the last year because it takes a while to appear.
It is naive to think a big company like Apple could react in a few months.
Cmon, they need to collect data , evaluate them and study a solution plan.
As long as they actually provide a solution I'm happy.
Yep. OSX here is on a samsung 850 evo and with windows on the 500gb 5400 spinner it's still faster than osx.
The only reason I can see that apple is still putting the spinner in entry level ones is so people will get frustrated with it, sell that one and get another for a double sale. Those that know will bypass it and spend more money for another.