Agree 100%! Let's just start a petition in change.org with your statement above to grab Apple's attention
iFixit Teardown Suggests 2018 MacBook Pro Keys Feature a Silicone Barrier to Prevent Malfunctions Due to Dust
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Agree 100%! Let's just start a petition in change.org with your statement above to grab Apple's attention
Glideslope
macrumors G3
I'd be interested as to the polymer makeup of this "membrane." How resilient will it be? Will it be prone to hardening after a a few years? Membranes can be tricky. 
Falhófnir
macrumors 603
True - if it perishes and crumbles it will begin aggravating the very problem it’s trying to solveI'd be interested as to the polymer makeup of this "membrane." How resilient will it be? Will it be prone to hardening after a a few years? Membranes can be tricky.
ocnitsa
macrumors 6502a
I think Abazigal meant something different by "progress" than it sounded (although someone who believed it was an objective form of progress would just call it progress, I imagine)...I believe what he meant was that these changes represented progress towards Apple's design goal which is often forward looking (in this case, likely by 3-7 years). Like when Ivy said he wants a simple slab of glass as an end goal for the iPhone design. In that case, you can see most recently that Apple got rid of the home button and moved to Face ID. In their minds (and in the minds of people that supported those changes), that represents progress. Eventually, they will get rid of the charge port and charge wirelessly and that will be another move towards Ivy's goal (i.e. "progress" in that sense). Now...Apple is not thinking let's make the best laptop based on the successes of the last laptop (for example, the 2015 keyboard was a great success, therefore it's done and we will never touch it, but move on to work on something else...or each component is great, so let's just offer tech upgrades), they have some sort of end goal in mind that is likely several years away that they are building incrementally towards. In this case, some suspect it's a move towards something similar to Ivy's "single slab of glass" that he envisions for the iPhone, but adapted to the laptop form. The Touchbar, in this case, represents "progress," because it's an incremental move towards a different kind of input, that allows the device to ultimately be thinner and sealed (and more versatile in the input it offers users). The butterfly keyboard is an incremental move towards a thinner device with less key travel (conditioning the user to become accustomed to something closer to what they envision their device having in several years...likely no physical keyboard, but some combination of haptic feedback and OLED or another kind of display technology adapted for keyboard use). In relation to Apple's endgame, this is "progress." Port streamlining also likely relates to a thinner device, more simple to manufacture, with arguably more versatility.
Many of these changes DO NOT feel like progress, if you base your criteria on what worked well previously or if you end up not satisfied with what Apple is building towards. 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports, for example, seems like ripping off a bandaid before a wound has healed...meaning that Apple probably should have had a few legacy ports with a mix of Thunderbolt 3 for a year or two before switching all the way. But, they didn't. Some people in this thread argue that in 10 years everything will be USB-C. That may be the case, but in 10 years we will be using a different laptop. NOW, the reality is that most people use a mix of devices, some that require USB-A, SD, whatever...(I should make it clear here that although I think it's an inconvenience, I personally don't care about the ports...I am used to being required to carry around adapters. People in the debate have brought up good solutions imo.)
When Apple gets to their next gen design, that's when it will be clear if these changes were "progress" or if they've evolved the line into something that appeals to a different sort of user. For those of us that the changes are rubbing the wrong way because they cause inconvenience, different functionality, or failure rates that are too high for us to feel comfortable with, it doesn't seem like progress. I suspect in 2020, if they move to their in-house chips for CPUs, we are going to see some big changes in functionality. I think Apple patents like the living hinge and the OLED screen as keyboard are not just pipe dreams, but will matriculate into the line over the next several years along with a tighter integration between iOS and MacOS. While I'm not looking forward to what I envision happening, I am open to the idea that they could produce something really cool that does win me over. NOW...however...I'm leaning towards switching back to PC for a few years in order for something that is closer to what I'm looking for NOW. I can respect those, though, who enjoy being part of Apple's long game.
The logic people use with this issue is flawed.
First of all, a brief internet search will prove that other manufacturers of laptops that don't use the butterfly mechanism also have customers that experience stuck keys, intermittent key function, or keyboards that have to be replaced. So having those types of issues occur is not proof of a "design flaw" in the butterfly mechanism by itself. Any laptop keyboard design can require repair for minor to major issues that are an exact match for the repairs on the MBPs in question.
In addition, nobody knows how many of the MBP repairs were minor vs. major and nobody knows how many of the repairs were due to customer negligence (like spilling something on the keyboard or dropping something on the keyboard etc) vs. standard use.
Finally, hardware vendors are expected to make improvements to their products from generation to generation. Those improvements do not automatically equal "design flaw" from the previous generation. Is a display upgrade proof of a design flaw? Is a GPU upgrade proof of a design flaw? Is a battery increase proof of a design flaw? Is a heat dissipation change proof of a design flaw? Or are those just example of a standard design progression?
First of all, a brief internet search will prove that other manufacturers of laptops that don't use the butterfly mechanism also have customers that experience stuck keys, intermittent key function, or keyboards that have to be replaced. So having those types of issues occur is not proof of a "design flaw" in the butterfly mechanism by itself. Any laptop keyboard design can require repair for minor to major issues that are an exact match for the repairs on the MBPs in question.
In addition, nobody knows how many of the MBP repairs were minor vs. major and nobody knows how many of the repairs were due to customer negligence (like spilling something on the keyboard or dropping something on the keyboard etc) vs. standard use.
Finally, hardware vendors are expected to make improvements to their products from generation to generation. Those improvements do not automatically equal "design flaw" from the previous generation. Is a display upgrade proof of a design flaw? Is a GPU upgrade proof of a design flaw? Is a battery increase proof of a design flaw? Is a heat dissipation change proof of a design flaw? Or are those just example of a standard design progression?
Shoestring1981
macrumors newbie
I may be in the minority, but I LOVE LOVE LOVE the butterfly keyboard. So nice to type on -- for me the keyboard was a positive. Hopefully this solves the reliability issues.
I have a 13" MacBook Pro 2017.
I have a 13" MacBook Pro 2017.
thadoggfather
macrumors P6
...Seriously, what?
What does that have to do with my question, your platitude?
I’m wondering if people think the silicone is for acoustics or reduce product failures or both
Glockworkorange
Suspended
I try to use it—-mostly in Office products. If you took it away from me I probably wouldn’t complain much.
Trying to use it to switch tabs in Safari is laughable—it’s too thin to touch accurately and too small to read.
The Phazer
macrumors 68040
It isn't.
I've had one for over a year now. I'm typing this post on it. I still wish a lifetime of splinters, UPS delivery delays, drizzle and the last book in their beloved novel series to never be released on everyone responsible for it.
it's absolutely horrible to type on. Painful. It needs to be abandoned ASAP. It was a terrible idea and it can't be fixed.
Apple_Robert
Contributor
Apple hasn't said, nor have other regulars here, that one should buy a $3,000 - $5,000 machine every couple of years. You control when you upgrade, and whether or not you buy Apple.
MoreRumors?
macrumors 6502a
I'll be waiting to see the outcome of the lawsuits and feedbacks from those of bought the new MBP. I can see the silicon making the keys quiet and as well as helping to keep dust and other small debris from getting inside. When the lawsuit concludes, I'm interested to see whether it was poorly designed keyboard or the dust/debris caused the issues though I'm inclined to think it was the former.
Glockworkorange
Suspended
It might help you vent your spleen, but not much else. Would it surprise anyone if the next keyboard version (not counting revisions—true next gen) is just an OLED touch panel using haptics?
jonnysods
macrumors G3
I think so. Time will tell, I need a new machine in October so that will give me time to wait and see. Don't have a choice really anyway as I need a Mac. So AppleCare for me!
az431
Suspended
Because it allows a thinner and lighter case. And not it doesn't "suck." I've had three MacBooks since 2016 and no issues whatsoever, just like 99.99% of everyone who has purchased one. But if you insist on using your MacBook for a plate when eating your $5 footlong, then yeah you may have some issues.
Non-butterfly keyboards from other manufacturers like Dell, Lenovo, and HP experience the exact same types of issues that require repair as the MBP keyboard. There's nothing unique about sticky keys, non-functional keys, or keyboard replacements in the laptop industry. Apple has said the number of repairs is "small", so perhaps the lawsuits will provide what percentage of the install base that amounts to.
MoreRumors?
macrumors 6502a
I agree with you and at these prices it is considered a major purchase which you want to keep for long term.
ocnitsa
macrumors 6502a
Who cares about other manufacturers? Apple is supposed to be the best. Tim Cook on Apple (his apology for Maps) "Everything we do at Apple is aimed at making our products the best in the world. We know that you expect that from us, and we will keep working non-stop until Maps [you can input anything here in place of Maps...like MBP keyboards, for example] lives up to the same incredibly high standard." If Apple merely claimed "Our products are as good as everyone else's" or "Our products fail as much as everyone else's" then I'd agree with your logic.
Apple knows. Apple Insider did access an admittedly small data-set related to repair rates. While this doesn't "prove" anything, it offers compelling evidence to back up the assertion that 2016-17 keyboards are failing at a higher rate and being repaired multiple times, more than earlier keyboards, and earlier in the life cycle. Further, logically, one can argue that the way users have interacted with keyboards has not likely radically changed from a couple of years ago. By your logic, more people are spilling something on the keyboard or dropping something on it in 2016-17 all of a sudden, than in the past...or conversely, we could suspect that the keyboards in 2016-17, given that they were newly designed, are less resilient to standard use conditions. Logically, it makes more sense that the hardware has changed...rather than people's use of it. People are just as sloppy or tidy as they always have been. Unless, there has been a recent redesign of people that I'm unaware of.
If you agree with Apple, that this silicone barrier is ONLY an attempt at making the keyboard quieter and ONLY makes the keyboard quieter, then maybe you have something. On the other hand, if logically you presume that a silicone barrier may help with the dust issue and logically that since Apple is being sued that they may not want their resolution of a design flaw to be noticed, then you logically would come to the conclusion that a silicone barrier was meant to address the dust issue given the design flaw. Display upgrades presumably aren't made because of failure rates...unless of course there is a repair program in place for said part. Likewise, a GPU upgrade would only be proof of a design flaw if the GPU in a laptop had been systematically failing in particular laptop model (has that ever happened with Apple?). A battery increase could be proof of a design flaw if prior batteries had been systematically failing. Heat dissipation change could be proof of a design flaw if a model has systematic trouble with overheating...Asking if they are just standard design progression is silly if you have no context to judge from. Also...there is a difference between decent design that utilizes a faulty part (made by a different manufacturer who designed the part...as is in the case of a display or GPU or battery) or designing a mechanism in-house, like Apple did with this keyboard as part of the actual design for the laptop (i.e. to make it thinner).
Rogifan
macrumors Penryn
A hero for what? Popping off a key and seeing what’s underneath? Good grief.ikr? Like Apple tried to Jedi mind trick everyone, but got busted by iFixit, who were smart enough to see through Apple’s attempted cover-up.
iFixit to the rescue, you’re our hero
az431
Suspended
The fact that someone files a lawsuit, especially a "class action," is meaningless. Filing a lawsuit and winning a lawsuit are two different things. Over 95% of all lawsuits are dismissed prior to trial.
That a manufacturer improves a product isn't "evidence of issues." Every iteration of a product is intended to be an improvement, and of course any product will have areas that could be improved. But as usual, there are a few dozen forum surfers that blow everything well out of proportion and make it out to be some evil conspiracy perpetrated on all of mankind.
Hmmm, that membrane isn’t even close to being airtight, so I wonder if it does help with the dust issue. Hopefully the action of pushing down the key somehow expels the dust or at least directs it to a part of the key that doesn’t matter.
Personally, I’ve grown to prefer the feel of the keyboard over the last year. Other keyboards now feel mushy and imprecise, so if this fixes the issue I’ll be very happy.
Personally, I’ve grown to prefer the feel of the keyboard over the last year. Other keyboards now feel mushy and imprecise, so if this fixes the issue I’ll be very happy.
Rogifan
macrumors Penryn
I thought people were throwing hissy fits because the Macs hadn’t been updated. Now they only need to be updated every 3 to 5 years?!?
I don’t get it what you want, I have the 2016 MacBook Pro and the display is more than perfect!
(Keyboard is another issue as it was replaced 2 times till now)
The current keyboard from June repair seems quieter, so I hope I got the new one.
curtvaughan
macrumors 65816
If Apple has proven nothing else over the last several years, it's that once they make a decision to remove ports, remove phone jacks, remove or change power connectors, or radically alter keyboard design - regardless of whether the changes were warranted (was anyone complaining about phone jacks, USB ports, SD card slots, older keyboard design, or magsafe connectors?) - they never seem find it warranted to return the ports and phone jacks, or go back to older design keyboards and connectors. Once gone, always gone for Apple devices, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere. Here's a thought: in an effort to please those who love the new keyboards, don't miss the phone jack, like that the ports were dropped, don't mind soldered SSDs or memory, etc., why not continue to offer those minimal devices, but ALSO continue to sell devices which still have the ports and other features that many would prefer? I suggest that there would be a lot of now gone or disgruntled customers who would buy fully outfitted devices, even if they were a little less thin. I know that I'd be one of those.
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