iFixit Tests Silicone Membrane on 2018 MacBook Pro Keyboard With Dust Exposure

[dantroline]

I don't know, but a standard keyboard is restful to my fingers. I don't like typing on my iPad for an extended amount of time, it is ok to reply to an iMessage or to an email but I wouldn't spend my day coding or writing documents without a real keyboard. The haptic feedback is great on the home button of my iPhone and I like it on the Watch as well, but having it on the single key on a virtual keyboard is a whole different story.

I agree. It might be hard for people to accept, but just possibly the keyboard as an interface has already been perfected, as deviations from eg: Apple's 2015 keyboards tend to generate criticism. Those keyboards were really great IMO, although not especially ingress resistant. I want a keyboard where the keys don't change location depending on what application I am using, and where I always know where my fingers are without looking down. For this reason I prefer clamshell mode, an external monitor and a plug in keyboard when I want to be most productive.

 

[recoil80]

I agree. It might be hard for people to accept, but just possibly the keyboard as an interface has already been perfected, as deviations from eg: Apple's 2015 keyboards tend to generate criticism. Those keyboards were really great IMO, although not especially ingress resistant. I want a keyboard where the keys don't change location depending on what application I am using, and where I always know where my fingers are without looking down. For this reason I prefer clamshell mode, an external monitor and a plug in keyboard when I want to be most productive.

Muscle memory is really important while typing on a real keyboard. You know where the keys are, and once the finger is over a key the hand knows it has so press harder. On a display even with a fixed layout you won't have that feedback, they could only give the haptic once the key is "pressed" but it is too late.

 

[chris1958]

Man, if they only had invented this back in the 80's!!

In the 80s I had my Apple II. This machine could be easily disassembled and cleaned. Wish Apple would still produce such reliable products.

 

[HacKage]

Easy solution, make the macbook pro into two screens. The bottom half is also a screen the size of a keyboard which displays keys. When you press a key, the force touch kicks in. Surely, this is the future?

Have a look at the Lenovo Yoga Book. It is every bit as horrible to type on as you'd expect.

 

[Tubamajuba]

But yes, I completely agree with you. Apple needs to revamp their entire MacBook line to at least match the keyboard and thermal performance of the 2015 and earlier models, if not exceed them. For years, I could easily recommend pretty much any kind of MacBook to people who wanted a durable, long lasting, high quality machine. The latest models take huge hits on those fronts, along with being more expensive. Apple was once in a class of their own when it came to laptops, and now they're barely treading water in comparison.

 

[MoreRumors?]

I wonder if this is an interim fix before we see a redesigned chassis & keyboard or if Apple will adopt the internal silicon barrier for all future keyboards.

We'll see how this new design holds up after maybe at least 2yrs of use. I would think Apple would still continue to design a better keyboard, after all, laptops aren't confined to homes or businesses. Many people do take their laptops wherever they go and it's subjected to much more dust and dirt.

 

[interessiert]

Customers face a big scandal, so called "Keyboard-Gate".

iFixit proofed, what is the following: Grains, condensing dust will be gathered at the edges around (tent effect). Then through transportation (vertical) or movement away from horizontal line, these grains will arrive at the corners and will fall by gravitation through the 4 "entry holes" and enter the bottom space (this will getting worse with thermal influence e.g. sun on keyboard and simply usage - also I expect that this membrane will stay up at the inner side of these "entry holes" and will be pressed down outside, which leads to a sinkhole effect). Then dust grains will condense and be pressed by the butterfly arms with each typing till contact is lost (lack of "cleaning by gliding" at the bottom, as it was done by the previous mechanism).

Especially the handling of repair for MB and MBP 2015 till 2017 is a heavy beat to customers.

Now we understand the arousing thermal problems of brand new MBP with Touch Bar, we heard about - circulation was heavily reduced by this membrane... (this could not be counted in establishing the whole concept).

What now, Apple?

First push the icons away of their throne (Jony Ive and the engineers of butterfly mechanism) and work out a completely new concept for the current Mac Book and Mac Book Pro line - fastest as possible.
Too much for professional computing gathered in a row:
"Keyboard gate", thermal problems with slowing down CPU, swollen battery, short battery runtime, lost MagSafe...

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I’d like iFixit to take apart one of the recent replacement keyboards for a 2016 or 2017 MacBook Pro and see whether it has the same membrane. Are we getting replacements that bring us up-to-date with the current standard of quality or something less?

ifixit already opened a laptop with a recent replacement keyboard. There was no membrane and they did not find any differences with the original keyboard. In other words: Apple seems to replace the 'design flawed keyboards' with the same 'design flaw keyboards'. A lot of other reviewers came to the same conclusion. There are also users who needed replacement of their keyboards multiple times.

There are several threads about this subject on MacRumors. Also on YouTube you will find lots of information about the keyboard replacement program.

Also the whole uppercase of the MacBook has to be replaced in order to replace the keyboard. The 'newer design' keyboard with membrane does not fit in the 206 and 2017 models.

 

[theluggage]

I can't understand this relentless obsession with thinner.... how many actual Apple users care if a laptop/ipad/iphone is 1mm thinner?

Which Apple users? The sort of people who are buying 12” MacBooks obviously value size and weight over performance. Some people would be happy with the power of an iPad in laptop/MacOS form (because tablets suck at text editing, and adding a keyboard to an iPad turns it from a great tablet into a lousy laptop). Some users have a desktop system for the heavy lifting and are happy with a small, light laptop for communication, demos and presentations “on the road”, and if it can just about cope with serious work in an emergency, that’s a bonus.

There will always be space in Apple’s lineup for a super-slim “ultrabook” that turns heads - that’s not the problem.

The problem is that other users want a “desktop replacement” laptop as their main machine that they can shuttle between two or three workplaces in the trunk of their car and which spends most of its life on a desk, plugged into the power. If they do use it on the road they want to get on with real work. There’s no point in making such a machine 10% thinner if the upshot is that you have to carry around a hub and/or eGPU and an external keyboard.

What Apple have done is turn all of their laptops into ultrabooks that compromise power and versatility for the sake of extreme portability. What they needed was an extended super-slim MacBook range (so you could choose a bigger screen and slightly better CPU for word processing/DTP/web development and other tasks that benefit from screen space but don’t demand quad/hex core and dGPU) and a true “pro” portable workstation big enough to cool its components properly, accommodate a half-decent GPU and offer a decent selection of ports. Oh, and space for a M.2. card or something so you could expand the internal storage without remortgaging your house to buy the bleeding edge super-fast, super-dense SSDs that Apple sells (at a markup).

 

[ocnitsa]

No, on account of the fact that the MacBook Pros are still brilliant machines unless you take your computer to the beach or insist on using the keyboard as a breadboard.

Funny that only 3 years ago, it was no problem taking your computer to the beach or insisting on using the keyboard as a breadboard. I mean for the entire last six years I've been using my 2012 MBP as a breadboard at the beach and no problem whatsoever. Well...not the entire last six years...I mean I do work at a factory that makes an additive powdered mixture for paint that glows in the dark. In the past, I've been able to just set my MBP down on top of an open barrel and type right on a mound of the stuff...but no longer. It's only these new non beach/kitchen/paint additive designs that are causing trouble.

 

[nexusrule]

First push the icons away of their throne (Jony Ive and the engineers of butterfly mechanism) and work out a completely new concept for the current Mac Book and Mac Book Pro line - fastest as possible.
Too much for professional computing gathered in a row:
"Keyboard gate", thermal problems with slowing down CPU, swollen battery, short battery runtime

Sure remove one of the main responsible of your success because a minor defect that only happens to a tiny fraction of users. The company I work for has more than 15.000 employees using these computers for years, and allows us to bring our computer home too, if this problem was actually widespread I think it would be a good sample. I still have to know a colleague that had issues with its keyboards. Not to talk of companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon that uses the same computers for a lot more of 15.000 persons.

These things always happened, with Apple and all the other companies too. I had many problems with pre Cook era products, the first macbook, the white plastic one, it shut down randomly for a year before Apple acknowledged it was an issues. Swollen battery? I had it on a pre-cook MacBook Pro. You are holding it wrong to cover a design issue? And I could go on. I never had issues with Cook era computers, and not because they are better, sometimes you are part of that tiny fraction of unlucky users, sometimes not.

 

[MoreRumors?]

The bottom line is any laptop keyboard should be designed to handle the wide range of how and where customers use their laptops. If it does fail, then it is not well-designed, however, every effort should be made to protect it from accidental spills, eating over the keyboard (same goes for typing while still having crumbs on the fingers), and maintaining care such as vacuuming the keyboard occasionally. I understand that the keyboards was not designed as military-grade and I would not subject it to every environment as military personnel would. Can keyboard failure be caused by consumers? Yes. Can keyboard be caused by defects? Yes.
[doublepost=1532086506][/doublepost]

The only thing I agree with is a possible SD card slot, but why bother when the (photography) industry has been going wireless?

That's a great point but I would have to see if transferring over WiFi is just as quick as putting SD card into the slot.

 

[MrGimper]

Which Apple users? The sort of people who are buying 12” MacBooks obviously value size and weight over performance. Some people would be happy with the power of an iPad in laptop/MacOS form (because tablets suck at text editing, and adding a keyboard to an iPad turns it from a great tablet into a lousy laptop). Some users have a desktop system for the heavy lifting and are happy with a small, light laptop for communication, demos and presentations “on the road”, and if it can just about cope with serious work in an emergency, that’s a bonus.

There will always be space in Apple’s lineup for a super-slim “ultrabook” that turns heads - that’s not the problem.

The problem is that other users want a “desktop replacement” laptop as their main machine that they can shuttle between two or three workplaces in the trunk of their car and which spends most of its life on a desk, plugged into the power. If they do use it on the road they want to get on with real work. There’s no point in making such a machine 10% thinner if the upshot is that you have to carry around a hub and/or eGPU and an external keyboard.

What Apple have done is turn all of their laptops into ultrabooks that compromise power and versatility for the sake of extreme portability. What they needed was an extended super-slim MacBook range (so you could choose a bigger screen and slightly better CPU for word processing/DTP/web development and other tasks that benefit from screen space but don’t demand quad/hex core and dGPU) and a true “pro” portable workstation big enough to cool its components properly, accommodate a half-decent GPU and offer a decent selection of ports. Oh, and space for a M.2. card or something so you could expand the internal storage without remortgaging your house to buy the bleeding edge super-fast, super-dense SSDs that Apple sells (at a markup).

Yup that sums it up really well.

I still think a lot of those ultrabook/ipad/iphone users would be in the "Don't make it 1mm thinner, give me an extra hour or two battery life" camp.

 

[pat500000]

Just go back to pre 2015 keyboard and non solder ways, apple!

 

[Joecool5150]

It's hard to tell what to make of that article. It seems that the new keyboard might be somewhat more protected than the prior keyboard. On the other hand, once something does get under there, it's also probably harder to get out. Hmmm.

Just my thoughts, exactly! Once it's screwed, it'll be harder to fix with compressed air.

 

[hajime]

I suspect simply having a keyboard with actual moving parts is an interim solution as they move towards tablets taking over the portable productivity market completely, thus making actual laptops obsolete. Either that or moving towards zero travel keyboards (for the sake of thinness) by getting people used to less and less key travel.

Then again maybe I'm just a keyboard dinosaur with the way I went with a second hand 2013 MBP over a brand new one much in part due to loathing the keyboard in the new one or how the two times in the last year that I've needed a new keyboard I've gone with the old pre-"Magic" keyboard (found one as old unsold stock and got the other second hand).


I don't think the drive to be thinner has been user driven for a very long time. No, the driving force behind wanting to make things thinner and thinner is Jonathan Ive & Co. in the design department who under Tim Cook's management have reportedly received way more control over how products end up.

I'd hate to harp on about how much better Jobs was at running the company, but this is just another example of the failings of Cook's hands-off management style where he lets the different departments run themselves and not complain when they end up stepping on each other's toes. In this example it's pretty clear that the design department is making things thinner than what the engineering department can make work in a satisfactory manner, but can't really push back against the impossible tasks the design department is asking of them.

I am a bit confused. Isn't Product Design under Mechanical Engineering? So JI and those in the design department should have engineering background. If they don't, they are not designers but artists.

 

[Glockworkorange]

I suspect simply having a keyboard with actual moving parts is an interim solution as they move towards tablets taking over the portable productivity market completely, thus making actual laptops obsolete. Either that or moving towards zero travel keyboards (for the sake of thinness) by getting people used to less and less key travel.

Then again maybe I'm just a keyboard dinosaur with the way I went with a second hand 2013 MBP over a brand new one much in part due to loathing the keyboard in the new one or how the two times in the last year that I've needed a new keyboard I've gone with the old pre-"Magic" keyboard (found one as old unsold stock and got the other second hand).


I don't think the drive to be thinner has been user driven for a very long time. No, the driving force behind wanting to make things thinner and thinner is Jonathan Ive & Co. in the design department who under Tim Cook's management have reportedly received way more control over how products end up.

I'd hate to harp on about how much better Jobs was at running the company, but this is just another example of the failings of Cook's hands-off management style where he lets the different departments run themselves and not complain when they end up stepping on each other's toes. In this example it's pretty clear that the design department is making things thinner than what the engineering department can make work in a satisfactory manner, but can't really push back against the impossible tasks the design department is asking of them.

Now we see why they are so quick to remove moving parts from iOS devices---it's not just asthetics

 

[akbarali.ch]

Easy solution, make the macbook pro into two screens. The bottom half is also a screen the size of a keyboard which displays keys. When you press a key, the force touch kicks in. Surely, this is the future?

Well they are getting there, the keys are getting flatter and flatter and soon you will have your glass keyboard. Actually i gave this very feedback to them when i bought iPad Air

 

[curtvaughan]

You didn't read did you? They made it thicker not thinner, to allow for the membrane.

Did you miss this paragraph? --

The keycaps on the keyboard have also been slightly redesigned, measuring in at 1.25mm thickness compared to 1.5mm thickness in the 2017 MacBook Pro, which iFixit suggests is to give the keys room to travel with the addition of the membrane.

 

[Glockworkorange]

Customers face a big scandal, so called "Keyboard-Gate".

iFixit proofed, what is the following: Grains, condensing dust will be gathered at the edges around (tent effect). Then through transportation (vertical) or movement away from horizontal line, these grains will arrive at the corners and will fall by gravitation through the 4 "entry holes" and enter the bottom space (this will getting worse with thermal influence e.g. sun on keyboard and simply usage - also I expect that this membrane will stay up at the inner side of these "entry holes" and will be pressed down outside, which leads to a sinkhole effect). Then dust grains will condense and be pressed by the butterfly arms with each typing till contact is lost (lack of "cleaning by gliding" at the bottom, as it was done by the previous mechanism).

Especially the handling of repair for MB and MBP 2015 till 2017 is a heavy beat to customers.

Now we understand the arousing thermal problems of brand new MBP with Touch Bar, we heard about - circulation was heavily reduced by this membrane... (this could not be counted in establishing the whole concept).

What now, Apple?

First push the icons away of their throne (Jony Ive and the engineers of butterfly mechanism) and work out a completely new concept for the current Mac Book and Mac Book Pro line - fastest as possible.
Too much for professional computing gathered in a row:
"Keyboard gate", thermal problems with slowing down CPU, swollen battery, short battery runtime, lost MagSafe...

Ooooo...could the throttling issue on the i9 be caused by the membrane? I mean, it only seems the affect that model, so who knows?

 

[curtvaughan]

2020 is about when I would sell my 2017. So, if the warranty is up on the keyboard, who in their right mind would buy it?

How is it ok for Apple to sell me a computer that is useless in 2020.

I would expect that the relatively high resell value that Apple products have had in the past will be coming to an end. People are noticing the QC and poor design issues for Macs the last several years.

 

[interessiert]

Ooooo...could the throttling issue on the i9 be caused by the membrane? I mean, it only seems the affect that model, so who knows?

It's not "caused" but the result of this combination of a hot i9 CPU and the reduced circulation, caused by this membrane (up to now just in the MBP 13" with Touch Bar).

So, let's say finally YES...

 

[jdiamond]

Will a third party make this so those with the 16/17 Pros can install it on their machines?

If they can do that, the could make an entire 3rd party keyboard replacement. How much would you pay (seriously) if you could get a 2015 keyboard installed on your Macbook Pro? Then it would only have the ports and overheating issues left to deal with..

 

[aevan]

Does anyone think that they’re intentionally sabotaging their 'MacBook' product line so people move over to iOS?

No, of course not.

 

[curtvaughan]

No. If they sabotage their own products, people might also move to windows or android. That’s just...ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous if the eventual goal is to get out of the Mac business altogether. Remove ports, make dysfunctional keyboards, glue / solder parts so that they can't be modified or repaired, and raise the prices. Eventually folks will either buy iPads, which have no ports or keyboards, and also are hard to repair, as they are far cheaper than Mac laptops - or buy non-Apple laptops. If Apple is NOT trying to sabotage the Mac line, then they're making some seriously flawed decisions with the new designs.