Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Illinois Floats Bill That Would Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I recall when iPhone stormed onto the scene: it was a sea of proprietary, locked-down devices that were generating billions of dollars in custom ringtones, wallpapers, and $5 solitaire apps that were controlled by a 12-digit keypad. Android was very janky and everyone was scrambling to immitate Apple’s design aesthetic. The future of mobile seemed so new, so exciting, so full of “what ifs” and features waiting to be developed.
Fast forward 15 years: all those billions in ringtones, wallpapers, and mediocre flip-phone games? Those figures have exploded in value… but instead of going to the walled garden owned by mobile carriers, that money is distributed between Apple, Google, and millions of developers. Untold hours and dollars have been poured into development tools, payment mechanisms, security, and even CPU development. Consumers truly did benefit from the iPhone and Android devices, and I think some are hasty to dismiss just how bad the pre-smartphone era really was. (Anyone here ever use P2KCommander to manipulate Motorola phones?). Developing and selling apps as a sole person wasn’t even possible.
I think Apple has no option but to defend their position…. But the writing is on the wall, isn’t it? Our “phones” have become a de facto personal computer, Apple now commands a dominant position in the US market, and we’re all increasingly wondering why Apple won’t let us use our phone like we would our desktop or laptop. The “security” argument seems flimsy when the only other competitor (Android) allows users to load any apps they choose.
It’s been a fabulous run for Apple, but i think they are going to surrender something in the near future. It’s unfortunate, because I would much rather see Google, Facebook, and Twitter get thrashed after their manipulative, censorious behavior of the last two years. But, as someone else alluded, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that these players are deflecting anti-trust activity towards apple.
When this walled garden finally busts open, someone please make an enhancement so I can plug my iPhone into a USB dock and use it as desktop. I’ll be your first customer.
Fast forward 15 years: all those billions in ringtones, wallpapers, and mediocre flip-phone games? Those figures have exploded in value… but instead of going to the walled garden owned by mobile carriers, that money is distributed between Apple, Google, and millions of developers. Untold hours and dollars have been poured into development tools, payment mechanisms, security, and even CPU development. Consumers truly did benefit from the iPhone and Android devices, and I think some are hasty to dismiss just how bad the pre-smartphone era really was. (Anyone here ever use P2KCommander to manipulate Motorola phones?). Developing and selling apps as a sole person wasn’t even possible.
I think Apple has no option but to defend their position…. But the writing is on the wall, isn’t it? Our “phones” have become a de facto personal computer, Apple now commands a dominant position in the US market, and we’re all increasingly wondering why Apple won’t let us use our phone like we would our desktop or laptop. The “security” argument seems flimsy when the only other competitor (Android) allows users to load any apps they choose.
It’s been a fabulous run for Apple, but i think they are going to surrender something in the near future. It’s unfortunate, because I would much rather see Google, Facebook, and Twitter get thrashed after their manipulative, censorious behavior of the last two years. But, as someone else alluded, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that these players are deflecting anti-trust activity towards apple.
When this walled garden finally busts open, someone please make an enhancement so I can plug my iPhone into a USB dock and use it as desktop. I’ll be your first customer.
This. All of this. And then more if it again.I’d say first work to decrease the number of dumbasses. Use, say, Windows as a barometer. If the number of dumbasses are decreased such that the amount of money folks are able to scam Windows users out of in a year drops to less than $1 million, THEN claim success and go after Apple to make changes.
I’d bet there’s a LOT of folks out there that have their elderly parents or non-tech savvy family members using an iOS device because they know that “Dell” can’t call them up and have them install malicious software on it.
Ransomware is not a "computer" problem. Ransomware is a "Windows PC" problem. Let it stay there.
Oh sure the occasional issue has popped up on Macs, but XProtect will handle it shortly. It's also not gonna spread like wildfire. And it won't shut down the airlines. Or the gas pipeline. Or that pharma company.
The iPhone only succeeded because it was safe, simple, and secure. Every other vendor has failed and blown away in the ashes like they deserved. (If they didn't deserve it, they would've innovated and improved; this is how free markets work. Free markets doesn't mean "warm and fuzzy and happy".) Any legislation that tries to destroy that process will only backfire and make everything worse, like a cesspool that is a gas station toilet.
Breaking the App Store will be bad for everyone. If you can't see that, then you're a fool.
So yeah, let the trash stay on Windows. Peas in a pod.
Ex-freaking-zactly. Ugh…
The argument to make the Apple option more like Windows is beyond annoying. Why? No really why? So we can be just as miserable as you? Eh, I’m good. Thanks.
Notice, no one - literally not a single person, is trying to get Windows more like Apple. No one! Just think about that for a moment…
What people fail to think about when making the "pocket computer" argument is that iPhone still needs to do one critical thing than computers don't - call. If my car breaks down or I need to dial 911, I need that phone to work. I think that alone is enough to warrant a higher standard for security than Windows or macOS. Don't you?
Wait. What? "Run by government agency", "fully transparent", and "no funny business"? Those are all contradictory terms.
Government by definition is not "fully transparent". No two people in government have any clue what the other is doing. Why? Because we don't want to do it ourselves so we ask others to do it for us. We trade our laziness for ignorance.
I suppose anything can be made “legal” with enough money.
How is this different than going to a store that accepts Visa, but not AmEx? Or a site that uses PayPal, but not Amazon Checkout? Apple developed this device, and they could have sold it as-is with only its own apps. They allowed a marketplace on their store, you play by their rules. There’s actual, physical markets (such as festivals and fairs) where you buy “tickets” or whatnot… I just don’t see how this makes any sense. It’s punishing innovation and success, and I wouldn’t say the App Store is at the point of being a public utility.
I do get the argument when regulators (the government, in this case) should step in, I just don’t see it here. What about those of us who like the continuity and “walled garden” of Apple and purchased the devices for that reason? Yes, we can continue to use Apple and it’s in-app system, but who’s to say developers will allow it? Many developers want an alternative TO Apple’s system, not a choice alongside it. That will dissolve the current setup of the App Store and create a burden for Apple they didn’t ask for. There’s a lot of stuff involved here beyond simply “letting developers offer different payment methods”.
I do get the argument when regulators (the government, in this case) should step in, I just don’t see it here. What about those of us who like the continuity and “walled garden” of Apple and purchased the devices for that reason? Yes, we can continue to use Apple and it’s in-app system, but who’s to say developers will allow it? Many developers want an alternative TO Apple’s system, not a choice alongside it. That will dissolve the current setup of the App Store and create a burden for Apple they didn’t ask for. There’s a lot of stuff involved here beyond simply “letting developers offer different payment methods”.
Lobbyist dollars. Written as it is, it doesn’t have a chance of passing, BUT several pockets will be lined by lobbyists ensuring it doesn’t pass.
There are lots of folks that research what they buy before buying BUT, for those that just aren’t able to, they may need extra help from the government. The US government can just pay Apple to produce iPhones for this special group that removes the secure enclave and everything else allows access to Apple’s services. The phone wouldn’t even have an Apple logo on it so that folks understand it’s a product of the government and not Apple.
Those who want to continue to use Apple’s products, understanding the limitations, can do so. Those that want the US Edition can buy it and do whatever they want as long as what they want is NOT to use Apple’s services (those services would only be for the Apple logo’d phone).
Those who want to continue to use Apple’s products, understanding the limitations, can do so. Those that want the US Edition can buy it and do whatever they want as long as what they want is NOT to use Apple’s services (those services would only be for the Apple logo’d phone).
Apple knows. That’s why they are fighting it, because they want the same thing you do.
I’m not a fan of alternative app stores yet because I haven’t seen a secure solution to the malware, spyware, and pirating problems. However, I do think that apps should be allowed to have alternative options for in app purchases. I think it’s fair for apple to require that an equivalent apple option exists, but I don’t think it’s fair for them to dictate how other people’s apps process payments
personally I wish those people wanting apple opened up would just buy samsnungs/androids/anything other than iPhone.
stop trying to ruin a perfect product.
Future News:
Apple charges Illinois developers $9.99/month/app ( free or not ) to cover advertising / storage / distribution charges.
Future Future News:
Illinois brain dumps as developers move out of state. Illinois's loss of income tax has made for desperate times for social services. Illinois decisions blamed on excessive lead in water. Government is running as expected.
Thankfully, we already have it. Users can purchase anything they want without going through the app store. Download Starbucks PWA app on your phone and pay directly to Starbucks, Apple does not get a cent.
Starbucks Coffee Company
More than just great coffee. Explore the menu, sign up for Starbucks® Rewards, manage your gift card and more.
app.starbucks.com
Thankfully, we already have it. Users can purchase anything they want without going through the app store. Download Starbucks PWA app on your phone and pay directly to Starbucks, Apple does not get a cent.
Starbucks Coffee Company
More than just great coffee. Explore the menu, sign up for Starbucks® Rewards, manage your gift card and more.
Makes me wonder why Epic didn't have a PWA app for customers to add VBucks to their accounts.
Or just a plain ol' website.
You're right... developers can use the world wide web to avoid Apple's app store fees. You've solved it!
?
I’d be fascinated to hear how this is my problem or that of anyone other than your mother.
I used to run programs when dos 3.0 was a thing and spent hours learning to program bios and config files to eek out every last bit of memory and CPU performance. For many years this was fun for me and I enjoyed it. I have since moved on to liking different things and so for me I prefer a device that is out of my way and I have less reason to bother with paying attention to it. I spent over 12 years doing proffessional tech support, and strongly suspect I have tons more experience than most of the adverage user so why should I not have the choice to have a device that just does what I need it to and stay out of my way? Why should for your arrogant desire to have the option of two open systems should I lose the choice of my preferred provider when you could easily buy an Android system that has the very options you want.
The issue with the "install from everywhere" is it means I now will need to have to pay attention to a device that really i do not want to. There is a lot of important things like banking, identification and such I keep on my phone for convenience that I will now have to worry about. The thing which I prefer in iPhone is I know i can use it without giving it my full attention, I know when I am distracted or tired, or just not paying enough attention I will not accidentally click on something and infect my phone with an app. And while those issues are mine, the simple fact is that for a majority of users it is why they select Apple. The astounding level of narcisism and egotistical assumption that people that prefer that are somehow uneducated, is beyond credulity.
And no its not a straw man argument. The more governments try to multitask the less actual work gets done. They take on more than they should and do a worse job than the people deserve. Also this kind of stuff should not be the government wasting time on. I wonder how the government would react if citizens decided they do not use all the services that are paid for by taxes and decided they would not pay the government taxes just pay some local people for the services they actually need. Something tells me that wouldnt go over very well, but that is basically what they are trying to do, force Apple to support the developers without any recompense.
I should have the option of deciding which manufacturer receives my money when I buy something. I should be able to buy an app but if I don't agree with the developer's beliefs or face I should be able to send the money to a different developer that deserves it more. If I can't buy the app from a different developer then they have a monopoly over the app and that's just wrong.
Why should you have a choice that negatively impacts on others when you already have a viable alternative in using a non iOS device. You do not like the control that Apple imposes on their phones here is a simply solution, do not buy one. Start taking some personal responsibility for your own life and choices. If you buy a device knowing full well it does not have the options you want, you have zero right to cry about it when there was a perfectly acceptable alternative that did every thing you want. All your crying about how you cant have your iPhone the way you want it make you look selfish and highly uneducated since you couldnt do a 5 minute google search to see if it had the options you wanted.
Your choice of allowing alternative installation choices 100% decreases the security of everyone else who does not want that decision. Think of it like a brick wall without any windows or doors. As soon as you add either a window or a door it is now 50% less secure than it was. It does not matter how good a lock you put on the door, it will never be again as secure as it was when it was just a wall. So as soon as Apple creates an opening in the iOS that allows for your selfish desire, that affects everyone even if they never install anything off a third party stores. As soon as there is a new access point some group of hackers will spend hours finding a way to exploit it, that is proven history and has happened 1000s of times on other devices and platforms.
Again stop trying to stifle choice for others. You do not like being told you can't run something on your device, then do not bloody well buy that device, buy the one that does what you want. And don't pretend you do not have a choice, if your work requires you to use a specific device for your business then they should be providing it or subsidizing it and you should be buying your own personal device for your own personal uses. Again it is so exhausting to constantly here these people that think they are the only ones who should have choice, get over yourself, you are not a special snow flake and the world does not revolve around you. Pick the device that meets your needs, otherwise you have no one and I mean 10000% no one other than yourself to blame if you are not satisfied, Apple has had the store in the same format for over 10 years now, there is literally zero excuse for not knowing other than complete laziness and lack of self responsibility.
Like the person up above who blamed a computer for their mother having gotten scammed out of thousands of dollars?
And what prevents those developers from stopping support of using apple payment system once they have their own? Why should Apple provide all the backbone, the equipment, the software features that the programs use to enhance their function (Augmented reality etc.) just so some App developer that had none of the investment in that Apple does can get rich without paying their dues? Why should digital enterprises not have the same burden that physical stores do? If you create a physical product and you want to have it sold in target or walmart you have to pay whatever walmart wants to charge for that. How is that perfectly acceptable but Apple doing the same thing is not?
Again what is fair to one side in your example is completely unfair to the other. Where as currently 80-90% of the app developers are only in business because Apple created a platform for them. Look at phones prior to Apple, with snake being the most exciting game you could find and there was almost non existent phone app market.
The decision to allow this wont only have a negative affect on Apple and other Smart phones in the future, but an incredibly destructive impact on innovation as a whole. Why invest millions of dollars creating a whole new platform and industry only to have small special interest groups and people willing to lobby the government to come and take that away from you? If you think companies like Apple or even Google will continue to invest heavily in systems where there is a good chance that someone is going to push the government into wresting control from them, you are kidding yourself. So if you want to see new and exciting platforms and products in the future you better hope this kind of bill gets squashed quickly.
Uh… you have the GOP who is all for states rights, and the Dems who think tech is too big. How do you think a federal law would go?
You clearly do not understand security and how it applies to software and devices. The more open a system is, the more security focused the user and tech savy the user has to be. Even tech savy people sometimes prefer not having to have that extra consideration of paying a ton of attention to their device because it does require that one pay more attention and care for it. That is not being someone without personal responsibility. That is being someone who has made a choice about what platform has the security they want after the prior system they had let them down. These people made a decision after the system they had lead to their probably novice user getting scammed. Even the most careful user on a windows or even mac os computer can easily run afoul of malware due to how prevalent it is and because there are simply way too many easy ways to get it onto a system these days. All it takes is one miss-click on an email these days on a windows system to get infected. You can be reading an email, and your phone rings and you look down and you click without seeing that the link was not to the place it should have been. And while that is your responsibility, if there is an option out there that does allow you to reduce that chance and you chose to take it should it be removed from you for a small vocal minority that feel all devices should be the same because that is how they like it?
The situation of someone chosing today to buy an iPhone, knowing full well that it is a closed environment and then turning around and complaining about that is the very definition of lack of personal responsibility and is a very different situation than someone using a tool that failed to protect them sufficiently.
Nice try though