Illinois Floats Bill That Would Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules

[ds2000]

This seems massively unfair, Apple* spend billions developing devices for these apps to run on and have a global store front that the developers can submit freely too (so long as they have a $99/year dev account). If a bill like this passes then surely Apple can say "right, that'll be $2m for you to list your app"

* same can be said for MS, Sony, etc

 

[LonderJan]

It's like attacking the hand that is feeding you.

 

[makitango]

Maybe Apple should tax developers who only do webapps with their commission as well. Like MS does with all the devs who do stuff for Windows, or how Apple does for devs who do stuff for macOS… oh wait.

 

[LonderJan]

I would prefer if Congress would pass New Law that would create a 2nd iOS App Store that acts like a Utility, with a Fixed 7.5% fee across the Board for ALL transactions, with half going to maintain the Utility & half going to Apple.

IMO, Apple needs "App Discovery" competition more than anything !

For starters, I say let Apple keep the Game Apps, Apps for Little Kids, & Streaming Media Apps ... everything else, which accounts for about ONLY 10% of the App Store's revenue, should be allowed in the Utility iOS App Store !

Apple is resistant to change mostly because they don't want to lose-out on the Game Revenue, so lets remove it, & the others that Apple cares alot about, from the equation, & move forward !

All because revenue generating businesses have a change of heart about the terms & conditions (they agreed to) of another revenue generating business.

Maybe we should leave it up to business to decide what their business model is going to be, leave it up to partners of that business to decide if they can work out an agreement or not and have the end user decide if it all works out for him.

But for the love of god, let's stop complaining about one of the most basic constructs (taking a cut). If you don't like the percentage, go somewhere else.

 

[jkichline]

iOS Developer here. First, I want to defend Apple in some regard. Without the App Store, I doubt my app would have ever been as successful as it would have been. While 30% sounds like a big cut, it's standard for software and retail. In addition, it had allowed me to create an app and sell it without worrying about the mess of global taxes, refunds, etc.

However, I feel this notion does fall down in the year 2020 onward. Apps are a great thing, but the system was designed to allow apps to update indefinitely with no other upgrade option. It's sort of assumed that apps are free, or that they will never evolve or change to become more valuable, or that developers were not to be paid for their work to continually update apps to work with Apple's latest changes. This, along with the "no free trial" rule forced us to move into subscriptions to handle the expanding nature of the app. Besides, many apps require services to operate that require ongoing financial support.

While Apple has created in-app subscriptions (mostly by bolting it on to existing IAP systems they built), it has always seemed like a "work in progress". Even today, it's a mess to develop and test. Further, the promotional tools that Apple has offered have always been faulty for us or not aligned with how we actually market the product and even more so for subscriptions. The App Store is also designed to purchase software for individuals and never has taken into account licensing to multiple users for organizations and of course is limited to a single platform, iOS (and Mac but even that has been separated for a long time).

We have moved to a web-based subscription system for our group membership and would never be able to do that through the App Store. It allows us to control our promotions, resale, and retail. We can control and test the experience and provide affiliate revenue to our partners. None of this was ever possible in the App Store with the paltry tools that Apple provides. Simply put, Apple either doesn't understand the needs of developers, or doesn't want to in this regard.

That said, I'm a firm believer that if someone discovers our app in the App Store, that Apple should be the one to take a commission for their work. We continue to sell the app outright and provide a free version unlocked with an IAP subscription. I feel that there is value in that and Apple's lowering of commissions to 15% has been a huge boon for our business. I think that Apple does need to come to grips that software should be able to be sold in other places and perhaps change the App Store to allow their apps to be hosted by Apple, but perhaps not promoted by Apple without some sort of pure monetary system. For instance, your app doesn't appear in searches or in the App Store unless you monetize it through the App Store (and they let Apple promote you) or if you pay commissions.

One last thing... your ranking on the App Store is a combination of your rating, the number of downloads, and the money you make. Period. Let's not kid ourselves, Apple promotes the best performing apps and revenue based on commissions is likely a large part of that equation. Allow that to be handled on the side and your app still appears as normal but influences your ranking.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

The writing is on the wall. Whether you like it not, or whether Apple likes it or not ... their policy of 'walled garden' BS is going to end sooner than later.

You want security? Don't be a dumbass when purchasing stuff. The best security is people being somewhat intelligent and not paying $30 annual subscriptions for crap. At the end of the day, Apple can't prevent stupidity. And they shouldn't try to!

Treating people like ignorant babies is never gonna work out.

That's easier said that done and victim blaming doesn't help. Many apps can disguise what they contain and have tried to do so since the App Store launched.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

So…..by that logic: maybe do away with seat belt and child seat laws? Also…….

No, because (most) babies eventually grow up (at least physically).

Yeah seat belt laws are a joke.

Let Darwinian principle's play out.

YES I am saying people who don't wear their seat belts SHOULD NOT be given tickets.

YES I am saying if they were not a wearing seat belt and DIE, THAT IS ALL ON THEM. PERIOD. those idiots shouldn't be able to spread their genetics and "wisdom" into the future.

 

[AndiG]

Apple should finally enter competition!! The lock competition out/lock users in, simply doesn't work.

E.g. Apple handles taxes, which is a huge benefit if you're selling apps worldwide. Apple Pay is quite simple to use and implement. What exactly hinders Apple from entering competition. Yes I know 15-30% is a huge cut and Apple won't be able to keep such a huge cut, when competing with others.

Hey (not the app), this is called competition. Competition generates progress, this is the game of life.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

That's easier said that done and victim blaming doesn't help. Many apps can disguise what they contain and have tried to do so since the App Store launched.

I believe she is promoting self responsibility. if you assume all responsibility for your users then they don't understand responsibility, therefore don't have it.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

Apple should finally enter competition!! The lock competition out/lock users in, simply doesn't work.

E.g. Apple handles taxes, which is a huge benefit if you're selling apps worldwide. Apple Pay is quite simple to use and implement. What exactly hinders Apple from entering competition. Yes I know 15-30% is a huge cut and Apple won't be Apple to keep such a huge cut, when competing with others.

Hey (not the app), this is called competition. Competition generates progress, this is the game of life.

The last time an entity built a walled area to lock people in, it eventually fell on November 9, 1989.

people wanted the other option (competition).

let history guide us.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

I believe she is promoting self responsibility. if you assume all responsibility for your users then they don't understand responsibility, therefore don't have it.

Self responsibility loses meaning when it comes to software. It means something only in the physical world where you interact with society. You can think you are 100% responsible with your software downloads and still get duped by an app that has some malicious code hidden inside it or a payment processor or developer that takes your money and runs away.

When we will live in this world with good and bad developers releasing software from all over the world, what can you do to chase or sue someone living 5000 miles away from you where your laws or bank won't have any power to protect you? Nothing.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

The last time an entity built a walled area to lock people in, it eventually fell in November 9, 1989.

people wanted the other option (competition).

let history guide us.

Jeez guy you can't compare the Berlin Wall to an App Store. That's a universe level stretch to make.

 

[boyarka]

Um if you do not like Apple or how they operate, why are you here? I do not agree with every Apple policy but as I am not a part of the company I really have only one say in how that is handled and that is to not buy their product, if their product or service does not meet my need, then as there are multiple options out there that operate differently why should I feel that Apple should change just to appease me? Attempting to use the government to unilaterally force a company to change their business model, to decrease the security of their system and value of their brand to appease a small minority of users that feel they should not be responsible for their choice of buying that companies products is the height of arrogance and entitled behavior.

Because this kind of behavior by a company is pure monopolism, and their support by you is some twisted capitalist libertarianism.
A monopoly will not dissolve itself, and your kind of thinking is the very reason why it exists now and how similar things existed in the past.
The "security" argument is a very thin one.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Because this kind of behavior by a company is pure monopolism, and their support by you is some twisted capitalist libertarianism.
A monopoly will not dissolve itself, and your kind of thinking is the very reason why it exists now and how similar things existed in the past.

The App Store is just a department store.

If you go to any department store you see multiple brands inside competing for customers and you see the department store's own products in there too.

This monopoly argument is very thin. It's Apple's phone. It's their operating system. It's their duty to protect their users from all the problems that will arise if the users AND the operating system are harmed by a third party. When the harm comes the users will be giving Apple Support a headache. What will Apple say? Sorry can't help you, your corrupt politicians were bribed by third parties to help them con you.

The "security" argument is a very thin one.

Whenever I see such comments online I immediately think maybe these comments are made by scammers themselves look for an opportunity to steal data or money from smartphone users all over the world. I'm not saying you are one, but a smartphone's security should always be 100X better than a desktop computer otherwise we all potentially become the next Jamal Khashoggi in a world where populist leaders and extremists are looking to plant malware on phones, spy on critics, steal data and even assassinate anyone in their way.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

Self responsibility loses meaning when it comes to software. It means something only in the physical world where you interact with society. You can think you are 100% responsible with your software downloads and still get duped by an app that has some malicious code hidden inside it or a payment processor or developer that takes your money and runs away.

When we will live in this world with good and bad developers releasing software from all over the world, what can you do to chase or sue someone living 5000 miles away from you where your laws or bank won't have any power to protect you? Nothing.

That's the point.

Download anything, be stupid, get robbed. Then learn not do that crap again.

Be smarter and do your due diligence on the apps you download. Its called self responsibility.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

Jeez guy you can't compare the Berlin Wall to an App Store. That's a universe level stretch to make.

Only time will tell.

The writing on "the wall" ? seems to be history repeating itself ?

A universal principle to make a universal stretch? #inception

 

[metapunk2077fail]

Only time will tell.

The writing on "the wall" ? seems to be history repeating itself ?

A universal principle to make a universal stretch? #inception

Cybercrime is extremely high and lucrative now. They launder money easily than ever through NFTs and other new methods and once the money is cleaned they can lobby politicians and do other things for power. They keep repeating the process until these crooks are your bosses.

Keep that in mind when you see these attacks on your security and demands to open up your devices. These people who want that are not your liberators and they are not benevolent.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

Cybercrime is extremely high and lucrative now. They launder money easily than ever through NFTs and other new methods and once the money is cleaned they can lobby politicians and do other things for power. They keep repeating the process until these crooks are your bosses.

Keep that in mind when you see these attacks on your security and demands to open up your devices. These people who want that are not your liberators and they are not benevolent.

absolutely agree.

when changes happen I will assess the landscape and make the proper decisions on how to conduct my digital life moving forward.

its quite simple if one cares to think about it.

 

[metapunk2077fail]

absolutely agree.

when changes happen I will assess the landscape and make the proper decisions on how to conduct my digital life moving forward.

its quite simple if one cares to think about it.

I am very active in the gaming scene and all I see if people angry at new trends and bad developments (micro payments, NFTs, loot boxes etc). There is a massive swelling of gamers just giving up on new games and playing emulators or buying old consoles.

The same thing could happen if our devices are plundered for our money and data. Users will simply not install their banking or finance apps. They will stop downloading software that asks for payment on device. They will go back to the old ways of doing things so that they can stay safe.

 

[makitango]

Both macOS and iOS require the signing certificates of apps and devs in order to authorize an install. You can‘t straightout install malware or else those devs will lose their ability to publish said apps.

The only thing you will maintain with keeping every app on Apple‘s App Store is visibility and advertising, and forcing to use Apple‘s payment system.

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

I am very active in the gaming scene and all I see if people angry at new trends and bad developments (micro payments, NFTs, loot boxes etc). There is a massive swelling of gamers just giving up on new games and playing emulators or buying old consoles.

The same thing could happen if our devices are plundered for our money and data. Users will simply not install their banking or finance apps. They will stop downloading software that asks for payment on device. They will go back to the old ways of doing things so that they can stay safe.

yep, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to be safe.

I don't game. don't care for them. I understand people game.

Its not on my daily needs to be met. at all. I can give it up because its not even a factor.

If you've got the "free time to game" you've got free time to go to the bank.

You've got free time to do due diligence on apps and games. do your research.

Its quite simple.

 

[boyarka]

The App Store is just a department store.

If you go to any department store you see multiple brands inside competing for customers and you see the department store's own products in there too.

This monopoly argument is very thin. It's Apple's phone. It's their operating system. It's their duty to protect their users from all the problems that will arise if the users AND the operating system are harmed by a third party. When the harm comes the users will be giving Apple Support a headache. What will Apple say? Sorry can't help you, your corrupt politicians were bribed by third parties to help them con you

If only such department store existed - then say an entire city or state's population would be locked to that one store. It would dictate what products can or can not be bought, who the customers may and may not be, and how much all suppliers would have to agree to pay as mark-up for the "priviledge" of selling there. Oh and yeah - no other stores in that city/state would be allowed. NONE.
Nobody would accept that in real life - absolutely no reason to accept that in iOS ecosystem.

Whenever I see such comments online I immediately think maybe these comments are made by scammers themselves look for an opportunity to steal data or money from smartphone users all over the world. I'm not saying you are one, but a smartphone's security should always be 100X better than a desktop computer otherwise we all potentially become the next Jamal Khashoggi in a world where populist leaders and extremists are looking to plant malware on phones, spy on critics, steal data and even assassinate anyone in their way.

Whenever I see such commets I wonder hos is it that a whole plethora of people use Android phones and Windows computers on a daily basis without being scammed/wiretapped/hacked/tracked on a daily basis.
There is, of course, one way of doing that - like living in a gated community (iOS ecosystem). There's also other ways: designing the system to be much less prone to such exploits to begin with, sandboxing apps, having an anti-virus or for the users to use whatever (if any) braincells they have and not click on "download this app to get 2x more ram!".

Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither - and no company should ever be allowed to run a monopoly of any kind.

 

[I7guy]

[…]

Those who trade freedom for security deserve neither - and no company should ever be allowed to run a monopoly of any kind.

Totally agree. And if Apple had been found to be a monopoly I would have thought there would be some legal action. However, since it hadn’t…

 

[BreakYurAnkles]

Totally agree. And if Apple had been found to be a monopoly I would have thought there would be some legal action. However, since it hadn’t…

that's what clever lawyers and lobbyists are for....

and campaign contributions don't hurt...

 

[JohnyTango]

"We would still have to come up with an alternate way of collecting our commission," Cook said during the Epic v. Apple trial. Cook explained that Apple would need to find a way to track sales, invoice them, and chase developers for money. "It seems like a process that doesn't need to exist," he said.

I love it when CEOs say stuff like this.
It makes sense, until you think about what they are saying.

Of course you don't have to chase developers, you can just bill them a fixed fee per user based on app usage IF a third party payment solution is offered.

The whole reason Apple is in this ********* is that the developers no longer accept the percentage they ask as reasonable. I dare Apple to disclose how much it costs to process a transaction (we already now this from banks and credit card companies, it is literally cents), how much it costs to host app/update files. If you put this against App Store revenue we are talking about a VERY small percentage, possibly below 1.

If you want to avoid all this hassle just lower the percentage for everyone to 5% or 8% or whatever number is accepted by your developers and all legal stuff will go away before any new laws are implemented basically taking that option off the table.