Its literally talking to a brick wall my dude for the reasons I mentioned
Go elsewhere if you want a more robust kind of arguing with people who don't have fragile egos
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I'm sick and tired of macrumors forum…
- Thread starter Ben J.
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Go elsewhere if you want a more robust kind of arguing with people who don't have fragile egos
This post may be a harbinger of the issues cited in the opening post.
There are two sides to the OP's issue: the OP's behavior and the moderator's response. @Ben J., you are complaining about the moderator's heavy-handedness. Is there anything you feel you did wrong or that you feel you shouldn't have done? Is there anything you wrote that you wish you hadn't?
@Ben J., you should give the moderators permission to document your removed posts in this thread. Only then can anyone really have a valid opinion on this whole matter.
@Ben J., you should give the moderators permission to document your removed posts in this thread. Only then can anyone really have a valid opinion on this whole matter.
I have to say the rules on this feel like they are akin to the Gestapo at times. I can’t comment on any moderation naturally, but I certainly feel like it’s over bearing at times.
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It's a real shame you didn't respond that way when @Weaselboy offered it on this thread a month ago. You were completely silent after your initial post right up to the point where you complained about people going off topic. You should DM a moderator to follow through. I look forward to seeing some content and an explanation about why it triggered your suspension.
Ben J. has waived his right to moderation privacy.
Following is Ben J.'s moderation history, from the forum records:
For each reminder and suspension, Ben J. was sent a message explaining which forum rule was involved, which post was edited or removed, and offering to discuss it further if he used the Contact form. Suspensions were given only for violations of the more serious forum rules (insults and trolling), and only after each rule had been violated repeatedly. Subsequent suspensions increased in length. Ben J.'s account is still active with full posting privileges.
Following is Ben J.'s moderation history, from the forum records:
- Ben J. created a thread to ask for technical help. After he replied to a user who posted a suggestion, a moderator removed this content from his reply and sent him a reminder:
I have been using macs for over 30 yrs both professionally and private.
It seems I'm getting responses from youngsters who throw up answers they found on google or didn't bother to try and understand the issue in the first place. Not an unknown phenomenon.
- Ben J. used the Contact form to submit this message:
I just got two of these:
"Reminder from the moderator team: Trolling or intentional provocations"
From moderator (specific user name).
What rule(s) did I break?
The administrators reviewed the moderation in question, to make sure it had been handled correctly, then sent this reply:
Your sentence "It seems I'm getting responses from youngsters who throw up answers they found on google or didn't bother to try and understand the issue in the first place. Not an unknown phenomenon." wasn't furthering the discussion. Instead, it was insulting other forum members, which is not within the forum rules.
You didn't lose any forum privileges, and there have been no other problems with your posts, so it was merely a reminder about the rules.
- A moderator removed this content from a post by Ben J., and sent a reminder:
The blind leading the blind here. Lots of that going around.
- A moderator removed this post by Ben J. and sent a reminder:
I say again, even if I was reprimanded the last time I expressed this opinion; except for (specific user name)'s post on deleting snapshots, the quality of advice is shockingly low. No wonder the OP seems to have left. Or maybe he has fixed his problem by deleting snapshots, and not bothering to get back to tell about it, another example of bad form on a forum, if that is the case.
(Complaints about specific cases of moderation should be handled with the Contact form, while discussion of general moderation issues must be in the Site and Forum Feedback forum.)
- Ben J. used the Contact form to submit this message:
The offending part that got removed was the first sentence;
"The blind leading the blind here. Lots of that going around."
Insult? Who did I insult? All the previous posters? The blind?
Anyway, I just pointed out a fact; too much bad advice, and there's a lot of it on forums these days.
I'm pretty well-behaved, and I observe common curtesy when on forums like this, but I might be a little direct sometimes. In my view, the moderator who gave me this warning is out of line; I didn't break any rules.
We don't want thought-police moderating the forum, or do we?
The administrators reviewed the moderation in question, to make sure it had been handled correctly, then sent this reply:
Your "blind leading the blind" was an insult to previous posters in the thread, implying that they were all clueless or unless in dealing with a technical problem.
You didn't help matters by breaking another forum rule, making an off-topic post about moderation of your post in the same thread.
We suggest reviewing the forum rules so you'll know what's allowed and what's not.
- A moderator removed this post by Ben J. and issued a 2-day suspension (the minimum suspension time):
Well "I think"… your thinking is nonsense.
And I think you should learn more about how RAM works, and how browser caches work, and how Spotlight works before throwing out conjecture and misinformation.
- A moderator removed this post by Ben J. and issued a four-day suspension:
No reply to my questions. I don't know why I bothered. Nevermind. RTFM
- Ben J. created a thread to ask for technical advice about blogging. A moderator left almost all of the post, but removed the link to his blog and this content, and sent a reminder:
Check out my blog, and give me feedback if you want.
(The forum rules say "Self-promotional links to your blog, video channel, product, business, etc. are limited to your forum signature and your Account Details, even if you have a wonderful and useful site, blog, product, or business."
- A moderator removed this post by Ben J. from the same thread, and sent a reminder:
I had a link to my blog in the first post of this thread, it was removed, and I got a warning. I had unknowingly violated this part of the forum rules:
4. Self-promotion. Self-promotional links to your blog, video channel, product, business, etc. are limited to your forum signature and your Personal Details, even if you have a wonderful and useful site, blog, product, or business.
So, I could have a link to my blog in personal info and in my signature, but not in any post I make. 🤷♂️
- A moderator removed this post by Ben J. and issued a seven-day suspension:
Welcome to my ignore list.
You know who you are.
- Another user, giving advice in a thread with a technical problem, used the word "implore" while suggesting what the original poster should buy. A moderator removed this reply by Ben J. and issued a ten-day suspension:
implore | ɪmˈplɔː | verb [reporting verb] beg someone earnestly or desperately to do something: [with object and infinitive] : he implored her to change her mind | [with direct speech] : ‘Please don't talk that way,’ Ellen implored. • [with object] archaic beg earnestly for: I implore mercy.
ORIGIN early 16th century:
from French implorer or Latin implorare
‘invoke with tears’.
‘invoke with tears’.
yea. right.
For each reminder and suspension, Ben J. was sent a message explaining which forum rule was involved, which post was edited or removed, and offering to discuss it further if he used the Contact form. Suspensions were given only for violations of the more serious forum rules (insults and trolling), and only after each rule had been violated repeatedly. Subsequent suspensions increased in length. Ben J.'s account is still active with full posting privileges.
I'll just say that I'm glad I'm not in the moderation game, as some of this is pretty challenging
This particular comment, while not ideal I agree, isn't singling anyone out and I can understand how a user would be frustrated with bad/incorrect feedback and advice overwhelming a thread and replying this way
The first line should have been nuked, I agree
The second part (starting with "and I think you") I have to be honest -- I think one should be allowed to say that to someone, particularly if what they are saying is flat out wrong, misinformed or overly full of uninformed speculation
Some aspects of this moderation history are really challenging and subjective for sure (in my view anyhow)
I appreciate it being shared publicly. It's an interesting peek behind the curtain
This particular comment, while not ideal I agree, isn't singling anyone out and I can understand how a user would be frustrated with bad/incorrect feedback and advice overwhelming a thread and replying this way
The first line should have been nuked, I agree
The second part (starting with "and I think you") I have to be honest -- I think one should be allowed to say that to someone, particularly if what they are saying is flat out wrong, misinformed or overly full of uninformed speculation
Some aspects of this moderation history are really challenging and subjective for sure (in my view anyhow)
I appreciate it being shared publicly. It's an interesting peek behind the curtain
Without insulting someone by saying “you should learn”, “reading comprehension”, etc an explanation or link can be given to refute a discussion point rather than an insult.
The old adage there are three sides to every story; his, hers and the truth applies here.
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Now that I've read through the removed stuff, I recall encountering some of it when it was posted. It was pretty caustic and unpleasant; I'm glad it was removed. But that just means my values align with the moderators'.
After combining those posts with @Ben J.'s assertion that he regrets nothing he wrote, I'm pretty confident this forum is not a good fit for him.
After combining those posts with @Ben J.'s assertion that he regrets nothing he wrote, I'm pretty confident this forum is not a good fit for him.
It’s not all one-sided as sometimes is claimed. This forum, SFF, is a good way to have open conversations about this site. How many websites provide this type of live platform?
Also laying all this out takes time for a volunteer staff so kudos for @Doctor Q for taking the time to lay this out and show there is always more to the story than meets the eye.
@Ben J. I have been in your shoes. There have been times where I have been mod'd and sat, scratching my head thinking, "how did that break the rules?". At that point I would question it, via the contact us link, and generally the response triggered an "ok, I see their point" or "well, I disagree with that interpretation of what I said, but its their site". Both trigger my "behave yourself for a while" response versus firing back with both barrels.
MR is getting strict about civility, and rightly so. When posting, we are removed from social interaction and cues. If you were in a room with all of the people in the thread, would you have said what you said, or would you have softened your comments a bit? This is a lesson I have been a bit slow to learn, especially when posting emotionally in a heated debate, but I am learning. When I take a step back, I ask myself "would I say this at work, in-person, in a conference room, with the target(s) of my comments sitting right next to me". If the answer is no, then I have my answer as to if I should post it.
That being said, I never understand the "dear john" posts that people write when they claim they are leaving. The vast majority of the 1,128,832 members of this forum couldn't care less. If you are going to leave, or limit your time here, then DM a few people and disappear. Better yet, just cancel your account after sending @arn a message as to why.
MR is getting strict about civility, and rightly so. When posting, we are removed from social interaction and cues. If you were in a room with all of the people in the thread, would you have said what you said, or would you have softened your comments a bit? This is a lesson I have been a bit slow to learn, especially when posting emotionally in a heated debate, but I am learning. When I take a step back, I ask myself "would I say this at work, in-person, in a conference room, with the target(s) of my comments sitting right next to me". If the answer is no, then I have my answer as to if I should post it.
That being said, I never understand the "dear john" posts that people write when they claim they are leaving. The vast majority of the 1,128,832 members of this forum couldn't care less. If you are going to leave, or limit your time here, then DM a few people and disappear. Better yet, just cancel your account after sending @arn a message as to why.
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The essential problem with civility is when those who do toe the party line don't realise it's a two-way street because they are completely up their own, well.
Ultimately I don't think that's really a factor for resolution of any kind at all. You abide by the vibe and rules here, maybe skirt the line a bit from time to time perhaps, but if you dont like it then there's not a lot that's going to happen or you can do about it.
The site owner has a brand. and that brand will be adhered to.
Ultimately I don't think that's really a factor for resolution of any kind at all. You abide by the vibe and rules here, maybe skirt the line a bit from time to time perhaps, but if you dont like it then there's not a lot that's going to happen or you can do about it.
The site owner has a brand. and that brand will be adhered to.
What I said above and in my first post in this thread. And that's kind of an unwarranted dramatization of the argument, as tempting as it might be.
The perfectly timed example of enforcement was yesterday as of the time of editing this post, when I found myself with a temp ban for saying something accurate, but phrased in the wrong way for this forum.
What I said was essentially in the tone of “Look, you’ve rolled rocks uphill before, an experience you clearly didn’t vibe with, you know how rocks and hills work or you should given everything you do, but you’re back here asking “should I buy rocks again on this upwards hill?” Are you a moron?”
The tone I should have responded in is “Hiii! I’m sorry you didn’t like rolling rocks “uphill” before. Did you know we have new, improved, rocks? And I know what you mean by uphill, but we've all taken to visualizing there is no hill. You need to let go of the concept of uphill, and roll with us. Why not give it a try again? But hey, if you don’t like that it’s fine. Just come back if you change your mind!”
There are more conceptually accurate, less emotive allusions than the Gestapo. Regional head of the Unification Church, perhaps. We can argue, but the truth here is the only truth that matters, here. We stray outside as I did, and you face the appropriate consequences.
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I'm amused that he didn't see any of that as a problem.
Sorry to see a MR user leave, but if you want to post in MR you must follow the rules. On my part I have had posts removed, mostly because there was a lack of appreciation of my rapier wit, and I have been suspended a few times. There has been only one case with which I disagreed (criticism of locating a IT factory in a certain country resulted in a post being removed and a suspension), but moderators are always going to have to make decisions in borderline cases. They don't have ESP and can't tell what our intent is - they can only look at the words we write. On the whole, I think they do a good job.
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It can be hard caring about people I've never seen. It's so hard to fill in the blanks correctly when building the full human I'm talking to. If I don't like what someone has written, I tend to not like the person - the imagined one. In person, someone saying something I don't like probably said something I did like about something else. I have a face to hang my general impression on.
I have another take on this though. I am not a naturally compassionate and considerate person. It takes effort to get in touch with that lesser side of me. In person, I'm aggressive with my points, uncaring about the other person's insecurities, and demanding that everything they say be literally correct. I just don't have the ability to reign in those parts of me that take no prisoners. When writing, I make a concerted effort to do better because I have the time.
In this case, with regard to the OP, I have managed to get in touch with a bit of compassion. @Ben J. will lose a lot leaving the forums; they were important enough to him that he complained publicly when it wasn't working the way he wanted. I suspect the people on these forums will lose nothing. Me? I only notice when someone posts; I never notice when someone doesn't. The forum and its moderators will benefit since the burden of moderation is lessened; @ben J doesn't seem low-maintenance.
Unfortunately, he is unable to understand and navigate the social requirements. He doesn't want to change anything he wrote and is unable to alter course, even though these do him a disservice. At this point, only one person was and will be suffering.
I would not mind getting the boot here…..
Mainly because the stiffness of some replies and that “upgrade or else” mentality.
BUT
There are too many great users and mods here who really should not see any negativity,
Which is why we should be considerate of the decades they stuck and posted here.
This is the last website we can openly chat about , movies, music and anything under the sun.
We need to keep this site sane and enjoyable!
Mainly because the stiffness of some replies and that “upgrade or else” mentality.
BUT
There are too many great users and mods here who really should not see any negativity,
Which is why we should be considerate of the decades they stuck and posted here.
This is the last website we can openly chat about , movies, music and anything under the sun.
We need to keep this site sane and enjoyable!
If I rant (and I'm sure I do) on the forums, I try to keep it light-hearted although that's very hard to interpret as such in text form. It's probably why I overuse the winking emoji. 
Also I rant about situations rather than individuals.
for the most part though, to be honestly crass - I tend to just make inoffensively populist comments or jokes on the first page of the thread and then disappear so I can enjoy the pathetic endorphins of the 'like' function.
Also I rant about situations rather than individuals.
for the most part though, to be honestly crass - I tend to just make inoffensively populist comments or jokes on the first page of the thread and then disappear so I can enjoy the pathetic endorphins of the 'like' function.
While on the whole I feel the forum is moderated quite well, at times I feel moderators having a bad day simply take it out on members for the smallest of things. Theres sometimes not consistency across all members.
Over on the 'whats on your mind' thread I once created a post saying I was frustrated with the UK tax system. I didn't go into politics etc - yet I was issued with a warning and then post removed, even though earlier in the thread others had talked of the same/similar subject.
The thread title was 'whats on your mind' and thats exactly what was on my mind. No bad words. No politics - but just because I mentioned UK taxes I was warned. I felt this was excessive and uncalled for - but hey, once a moderator has made their decision then it's final anyways, right?!
On the whole, the forum is run very well. It's just the odd bit of inconsistency that grates on me sometimes.
Over on the 'whats on your mind' thread I once created a post saying I was frustrated with the UK tax system. I didn't go into politics etc - yet I was issued with a warning and then post removed, even though earlier in the thread others had talked of the same/similar subject.
The thread title was 'whats on your mind' and thats exactly what was on my mind. No bad words. No politics - but just because I mentioned UK taxes I was warned. I felt this was excessive and uncalled for - but hey, once a moderator has made their decision then it's final anyways, right?!
On the whole, the forum is run very well. It's just the odd bit of inconsistency that grates on me sometimes.
I moderate on a different message board that's not nearly as busy as MR, but busy enough that the vast majority of moderated posts come to our attention via reports by other users, rather than something we see ourselves. So sometimes a similar post is seen to get a pass by the mods, when really it's just that nobody reported it and happened to report yours. Of course I don't know for sure, but I'll be willing to bet MR is the same way.
The other thing to remember is that (again I'm guessing about MR, but I bet it's similar) most things can't be done by one moderator alone. On the board where I moderate, reports are always discussed by two or more mods before action is taken, the exception being something obvious like spam or a post so far over the line you want to get it hidden from view immediately and discuss it after the fact. So you're right - I'm human and maybe sometimes in a bad mood and easily annoyed, but there'll be another mod to tell me I'm in the wrong. And when the tiebreaker mod swings by to also tell me I'm in the wrong, the report for the post gets rejected.
Ben –
Moderators are free to moderate in their own spaces, in which you're a guest – you're free to choose which spaces to visit. If it's been that rocky for you here, then I'm glad you're making a choice to resolve it all.
If you care to link to someplace else we can check out and chat with you, please do.
Moderators are free to moderate in their own spaces, in which you're a guest – you're free to choose which spaces to visit. If it's been that rocky for you here, then I'm glad you're making a choice to resolve it all.
If you care to link to someplace else we can check out and chat with you, please do.
I bet he's still reading so there's an even chance of that.
People write goodbye posts because they ultimately wanted attention, we provided the appropriate engagement 🤷♂️