Good luck finding a 5K external display that works properly on a Mac without compromise of some sort.Buy a Mac mini and a 5K external display. This is what Apple does, have you not been paying attention for the last 12 years?
Good luck finding a 5K external display that works properly on a Mac without compromise of some sort.Buy a Mac mini and a 5K external display. This is what Apple does, have you not been paying attention for the last 12 years?
For the last time: I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN SCREEN SIZE AND FEATURE SET!
Why should I have to fork over a bunch of money for Pro features when all I want is a larger screen for doom scrolling???
I think SDJim's point is probably more applicable to the laptops, where you can't get a large screen size without getting heavy-duty processing power. Now that the large MBP has transitioned to being workstation-class, Apple doesn't currently have a consumer-grade laptop with a large screen. I.e., I think what they need is a 15" or 16" MacBook Air.Buy a Mac mini and a 5K external display. This is what Apple does, have you not been paying attention for the last 12 years?
The 27" iMac Pro should have a much higher ability to dissipate thermal energy than the 16" MBP. Thus, even if they use the same chips, they could potentially clock the CPU higher (and maybe this could apply to the GPU as well?).Do you guys think that the M1 Pro/Max will have a higher TDP when used in the iMac Pro than in the MBP?
No. The only thing they will maybe do in addition to M1Pro and Max is use two M1 Max SoCs in a package.Do you guys think that the M1 Pro/Max will have a higher TDP when used in the iMac Pro than in the MBP?
Your post says it all.Reference Znet
The M Pro and M Max might be a touch slower, but energy efficiency your going to argue its got to have a large power supply like for the i9 to feed it to be impressive? Hmmmm
To keep decent pixel density only offer i’m aware was LG’s. XDR 32”6k is costly overkill. So hopefully we will get a product from Apple.Buy a Mac mini and a 5K external display. This is what Apple does, have you not been paying attention for the last 12 years?
After years of crappy graphics, and the full adoption of new SoC concept, it seems very very unlikely we will see support for 3rd party discrete graphics (not even mention nvidia) except for MacPro.Your post says it all.
Nota compelling reason to ditch the i9 in a non-mobile setting, barely faster (10%) than AMDs best MOBILE chip.
And at what cost? 32GB and 1TB with the Pro costs $3000 in a MBP.
The M1 is a compelling mobile chip evolved from a phone chip powerful enough to coordinate a score of concurrent Apollo missions in real time.
But one expects a PRO desktop chip to try to be a super computer, not a power efficient mobile chip shoved in a PRO enclosure.
Don’t need something so hot it requires liquid cooling like the G5, but at minimum take advantage of a desktop form factor and heat things up. Making the iMac skinny was an excuse not to have to justify the same speed as a fanless MBA.
Edit: and don’t forget lack of discrete graphics. On mobile, fine. In a desktop? Fugedaboudit.
The way I see this, this level of performance cannot scale. The workstation segment, which the iMac Pro and Mac Pro sits in is all about scaling out the core counts. Scaling up frequencies will make scaling out difficult as cooling it sufficiently without it melting will be a lot more difficult with many cores pumping out heat.Intel's top-end Alder Lake desktop chip, without overclocking, may have a single-core GB speed that approaches 2,000.
Sure, and that's why the Xeons have poorer single-core performance than i9's.The way I see this, this level of performance cannot scale. The workstation segment, which the iMac Pro and Mac Pro sits in is all about scaling out the core counts. Scaling up frequencies will make scaling out difficult as cooling it sufficiently without it melting will be a lot more difficult with many cores pumping out heat.
I suspect the Mac Pro will use the A15 cores for better efficiency and probably going up slightly in frequency. If rumours are accurate, it will have multiple Max SoCs stitched together for up to 40 CPU cores.
IMHO, the M1 already satisfy the majority of iMac users' needs at the moment. Apple will never be able to cater to (nor do I think they want to) everyone's needs.Sure, and that's why the Xeons have poorer single-core performance than i9's. But:
Apple has a large class of desktop (iMac) users that wouldn't benefit from a lot of cores, but would benefit from very high single-core speeds, i.e., from performance more like an Alder Lake with 8 performance cores than a Xeon with 28. Indeed, I'd say the overwhelming majority of Apple desktop users fall into this category.
Given this, wouldn't it make sense for Apple to provide a chip for this large customer group that, while it might not scale well to high core counts, would give extraordinary single-core performance?
It's not as if they'd be abandoning those who'd like a workstation-class iMac by giving them what I described above instead of MBP chips, since if the new iMac is going to use the M1 Pro/Max chips, it won't be workstation class anyways. Those chips are workstation-class for laptops, but they're not workstation-class for desktops. So putting M1 Pro/Max chips in the large iMac doesn't help either of these user groups.
It's not about catering to everyone's needs, it's about catering to the needs of a large block of Apple's customers. If you think the M1 is fine for everyone that buys an iMac, then your position is that there's no need for anything but the M1 in the iMac. But I don't think anyone, including Apple, believes that--at the very least, the large iMac (aka iMac Pro) will have the Pro/Max models.IMHO, the M1 already satisfy the majority of iMac users' needs at the moment. Apple will never be able to cater to (nor do I think they want to) everyone's needs.
I'm not saying that iMac users don't need more powerful chips. That's why the M1 Pro and M1 Max exists.It's not about catering to everyone's needs, it's about catering to the needs of a large block of Apple's customers. If you think the M1 is fine for everyone that buys an iMac, then your position is that there's no need for anything but the M1 in the iMac. But I don't think anyone, including Apple, believes that--at the very least, the large iMac will have the Pro/Max models.
Alternately, if you admit to the fact that the iMac does need more powerful chips than the M1, then it becomes legitimate to discuss what those chips should be, and your "M1 already satisfies..." argument no longer applies.
I.e., you can't have it both ways—you can't both admit the iMac needs more powerful chips than the M1, but at the same time dismiss any argument for more powerful chips by saying "the M1 is enough".
Why do you want discrete graphics which are most definitely on a slower bus and are more expensive and might hinder hardware development in the future because of contract issues and release cycle asynchronicity. Also if Apple is able to scale their GPUs on their SoCs further like they did until now there should be no problem performance wise.Edit: and don’t forget lack of discrete graphics. On mobile, fine. In a desktop? Fugedaboudit.
Why do we need discrete graphics if we can get near 3080 Mobile performance from a SoC?Your post says it all.
Nota compelling reason to ditch the i9 in a non-mobile setting, barely faster (10%) than AMDs best MOBILE chip.
And at what cost? 32GB and 1TB with the Pro costs $3000 in a MBP.
The M1 is a compelling mobile chip evolved from a phone chip powerful enough to coordinate a score of concurrent Apollo missions in real time.
But one expects a PRO desktop chip to try to be a super computer, not a power efficient mobile chip shoved in a PRO enclosure.
Don’t need something so hot it requires liquid cooling like the G5, but at minimum take advantage of a desktop form factor and heat things up. Making the iMac skinny was an excuse not to have to justify the same speed as a fanless MBA.
Edit: and don’t forget lack of discrete graphics. On mobile, fine. In a desktop? Fugedaboudit.
Because Intel has done a very good job at defining what a “Personal Computer” is over the past 40 years to the pony that most people really cannot see past Intel’s definition. Apple is going in a completely different direction, i.e. not a random bunch of parts put together on hope and a prayer, for which a lot of people Apple’s way is anathema.Why do you want discrete graphics which are most definitely on a slower bus and are more expensive and might hinder hardware development in the future because of contract issues and release cycle asynchronicity. Also if Apple is able to scale their GPUs on their SoCs further like they did until now there should be no problem performance wise.
Silly rabbit, it should be faster than an RTX 3090, because until it is, there’s a lot of people here for whom a GPU represents their manhood.Why do we need discrete graphics if we can get near 3080 Mobile performance from a SoC?
I'm pretty sure Apple can get 40 Tflops from a SoC if they wanted for the Mac Pro. It's actually better to have a SoC than to have a discrete GPU due to shared memory.
But those will never be satisfied with Apple and shouldn't spend their energy lamenting about Apple. ?Silly rabbit, it should be faster than an RTX 3090, because until it is, there’s a lot of people here for whom a GPU represents their manhood.
Some of the most expensive Apple computers were all headless Macs and displays in years before. The iMac all-in-one was a lot more economical then a Mac Pro with its built in display, that got better over time. We are now at that point in time that the next larger iMac will be pivoting from intel to M1 Pro/Max with a display quality uptick. The headless Macs currently are at extreme ends of the buying spectrum. Either the lowest cost, or the highest cost right now, if you don't look at clamshell MBP with displays being utilized.Amen! Apple should stop making expensive all-in-ones and go back to separate displays and computers, except now much smaller and lighter and with battery power. Then we don’t have to compromise or waste money, we can get whatever size screens we want (and they would work with any source) and however powerful a computer we want.
One USB-C cable between them would be so neat and clean. Nothing else plugged in to the back of the display, no ugly vga cables with screws and thick power cables gathering dust bunnies.
Here's where I'm coming from:I'm not saying that iMac users don't need more powerful chips. That's why the M1 Pro and M1 Max exists.
I don't think that Apple need to beat out Alder Lake to produce a better 27" iMac/Pro replacement. The M1 core is already good enough. It's just having more of them in a single SoC. Next year we will likely see the A15 or maybe A16 CPU cores in the new M SoCs.
My take is that Apple will settle down with 3 categories of Macs: good, better, best, if you will.
The M1 covers the 'good' for now. Q1 2022 will likely see M2.
Apple just started on the 'better' category, and the 27" iMac replacement will be next in line for the 'better'.
The 'best' will be the Mac Pro, and possibly the iMac Pro replacement. Maybe we'll be surprised with a 'best' category MacBook Pro? I suspect this category will have later generation CPU core architecture than the M1, which we will then get the single core CPU performance uplift.
I don't think Apple now wants to constraint themselves by artificially segmenting performance between desktop and mobile. It's just performance classes to them because AS allows them to do that.