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-hh:

I apologize for my rudeness and respect that you took the high road. My observations were limited to page 12 of this thread. Having looked back a page I see more illogical statements coming from Yamcha than you.

Not a problem...its not uncommon for readers to 'jump into' an ongoing conversation and have missed some of the prior dialog.

While I appreciate your algebraic reasoning, we both know there are too many factors to make it compelling.

Understood & understandable. The 'algebra' wasn't intended to be complete, but merely lay out the core structure as an illustration.

Rearranging:
EDIT: I just realized what you were missing from your equations. Yamcha's main argument (I believe) is that PC's give more value for the money. So the point is that (Windows)(Fast HW) $<$ (OS X)(Slow HW) while the productivity of the 2 sides is equal.

Yes, its absent. Since 'cost' is more complex than mere purchase price (eg, alluding to lifecycle costs) it would have been a distraction at that time. Cost is another variable and while I agree that it can't be ignored, it was able to be skipped so as to not lose sight of the more basic contradiction. In some businesses, factoring cost goes by the name of "CAIV" (Cost as an Independent Variable).

Can you explain what you define as "lifecycle cost"? It sounded to me like a property of the hardware and software, which would exclude the nebulous "user productivity factor." If that is the case I don't see how a Mac would come out on top.

The problem with defining lifecycle costs is that it can be done at many different levels of resolution, depending on how precise you want your numbers to be.

In principle, you can't ignore anything, which means that that nebulous productivity factor has to be addressed. However, we can initially set it aside and be pragmatic by following the Pareto Principle (aka 80/20 rule) to look for the major contributors and ignore the small ones, which will hopefully give us decent confidence that we're on the right track and that these small details won't fundamentally change the final conclusions ... but to be correct, we really need to go through everything, and to be thorough, perform a full blown sensitivity analysis too. The problem with this is that we'll end up spending dollars to account for pennies.

Here's one basic 'lifecycle cost' calculation approach:

Lifecycle Cost/month = (Purchase Cost + Electricity Costs + Operating Costs + Downtime Costs + Repair/Upgrade Costs - Residual Resale Value) / (months in service)

For example:

System A:
= ($2700 + $500 + $100 + $700 - $1000)/60 months
= $3000/60 mo
= $50/month

System B:
= ($1500 + $400 + $400 + $500 - $400)/48 months
= $2400/48 mo
= $50/month

Granted, these values are merely representative of the basic conceptual process, and in this case, I've purposefully rigged them to result in the same exact notional $50/mo lifecycle cost, to illustrate that with two very different starting points, one can end up at the same result.

Using such a framework, we can apply and test various assumptions and so forth. For example in the above, the first system costs more upfront, but it also has a higher residual value, longer useful life and lower downtime costs - characteristics that are all generally attributed to Apple / OS X systems. FWIW, you'll also perhaps notice that I made the "A" system's upgrades cost more ($700 vs $500).

The next step after this would be to add in complexity for the factors that we ignored on the first cut, such as in trying to better quantify the costs of downtime and those nebulous variations in productivity. In this case, I've simply pulled a dollar value out of my wazoo to populate the former, and I didn't even bother to try to account for the latter.

FWIW, my first cut at modeling downtime would ideally be to estimate how many hours per month one spends on a computer system doing "maintenance work" of one sort or another, and then multiply this by a reasonable hourly rate for the value of one's time.

However, I don't have that data, so another reasonable approach is to apply a "frequency of problems" ratio, which then gets multiplied by a 'how much did one problem probably cost?' swag. Here, I chose a ratio of 1:4, based roughly on the average number of forced reboots that I generally encounter per month, and $100, which is one man-hour fully burdened, rounded off. What should be obvious but needs to be clearly stated is that if one considers their time worth $0/hour, this factor will drop out.

Hope this helps you to understand the general approach I'm applying. There's a lot of stuff in the field of "Lifecycle Management" cost accounting that can be boring as all get-out when it gets down into the weeds.

In practice, one should always start with a list of what items are probably important and what are not, and make explicit what simplifying assumptions you're making to help you find the Elephants first, then the Lions, Buffalo, etc...and hopefully, you'll never have to worry about the mice - - but the paradigm contradiction is that if there's a whole bunch of mice, even something that otherwise initially seemed small enough to ignore can quickly add up to be something that can't really be ignored. As such, both frequency and severity must be monitored, which happens to be the same process as is used in a classical Risk Assessment.


-hh
 
Honestly, theres no need to worry about how i type, this is a forum, Not a freaking english class so you need to relax. And yes, i did know that any apple machine is pretty much identical to a pc configuration. Likewise, that helps me prove my point. If you take two systems with the same config, One being an Apple, The other a pc, the apple will trump the pc, hands down. I also was aware that Windows was incorporating those features in there OS, and they should be. Any OS that is coming out in todays technologically advanced world should have those features.

A PC will always outclass a Mac when it comes to Hardware performance at any price point
 
PCs usually work out of the box while Apple products usually need to be sent in 5 times untill they actually work like they should.. I have never bought an Apple product which was not dead on arrival!
 
Have you read the tittle????

Hey all you nonces arguing about PC's being faster than Macs and vice versa ... Why don't you all grow up and take your tired old 'heard it all before' arguments elsewhere -I thought this thread was supposed to be out dual vs quad cores in iMacs ... not the tosh you're all writing! Most sensible mac owners know pc's are faster blah blah blah ... But that ain't the point amd it certainly isn't the point of this (original) thread!
 
A great operating system means little if you're running it in crappy hardware.

This is getting old.

And if you believe that do you also believe you should buy a new pc every 6 months because new tech instantly made your older kit crappy?
 
It never did and never will do. It may beat in in raw power but not in efficiency and speed.

Real World Photoshop benchmarks (in one of the macrumors thread) show that Vista gets 10% better results than OSX on the same machine. Contrary to the popular opinion that Windows is slow and bloated.
 
Real World Photoshop benchmarks (in one of the macrumors thread) show that Vista gets 10% better results than OSX on the same machine. Contrary to the popular opinion that Windows is slow and bloated.

Could you post a link to the thread?
OS X has always been faster than Windows whenever for me and everyone I know who has tried both OSes, especially when multitasking. Windows has always been slower and much more prone to crashes and freezes.
 
Could you post a link to the thread?
OS X has always been faster than Windows whenever for me and everyone I know who has tried both OSes, especially when multitasking. Windows has always been slower and much more prone to crashes and freezes.

I can say Vista does not run Photoshop faster. I used the retouchartists.com speed test on my imac and 10.5.6 took 53 sec, Vista 1min 2sec. Not a huge difference but multiply that but the number of actions/filters you do a day and it does add up. (Why I use macs today)

On a side note I installed Windows 7 Beta on this same machine using Boot Camp and surprisingly it BEAT OSX at 43 seconds. Which brings us back to the original debate that if Windows 7 is already 18% faster on the same hardware, add a quad core/12GB of ram then what will be the speed difference? If it really does push the gap to the 33-50% and I can get 2x more work done then I would be willing to *gulp* go back to windows.

Let's hope for better hardware and a beefcake Snow Leopard to put windows back at a distant #2 choice.
 
Real World Photoshop benchmarks (in one of the macrumors thread) show that Vista gets 10% better results than OSX on the same machine. Contrary to the popular opinion that Windows is slow and bloated.

is the nvidia cx series that accelerates photoshop available for mac pros/imacs ?
 
I thought this thread was supposed to be out dual vs quad cores in iMacs ... not the tosh you're all writing!

Yes, but there isn't much more to say about that, is there? It's amazing this thread has now reached 13 pages, given that Wu's pronouncement was so obvious to begin with. With nothing new from Apple to spur any real discussion, threads tend to devolve into one of two standard forms: PC vs. Mac, or Intel vs. PPC.
 
PCs usually work out of the box while Apple products usually need to be sent in 5 times untill they actually work like they should.. I have never bought an Apple product which was not dead on arrival!

stop buying them off eBay
 
I can say Vista does not run Photoshop faster. I used the retouchartists.com speed test on my imac and 10.5.6 took 53 sec, Vista 1min 2sec. Not a huge difference but multiply that but the number of actions/filters you do a day and it does add up..

I assume that both were clean installations and you dual-booted for that test? No VMware virtual machines?

And I also assume that you ran a fair number of tests and took the average?

That difference that you see could be due to background activity, differences in disk speeds or fragmentation, memory differences,.... You knew that the beginning of a disk is typically twice as fast as the end - so if the OSX partition is at the start of the disk, and the Vista partition is at the end, then Vista's disk is about half as fast as OSX's?

Obviously, comparing Windows in a virtual machine to native OSX is not a valid test of the speed of Windows.


On a side note I installed Windows 7 Beta on this same machine using Boot Camp and surprisingly it BEAT OSX at 43 seconds. Which brings us back to the original debate that if Windows 7 is already 18% faster on the same hardware, add a quad core/12GB of ram then what will be the speed difference? If it really does push the gap to the 33-50% and I can get 2x more work done then I would be willing to *gulp* go back to windows.

That's interesting, especially when you consider that Windows 7 is running in "debug mode" with lots of extra checks for unexpected errors and inconsistent API calls. This would not affect pure computing in application code, but any call to the OS for IO or memory or anything would be noticeably slower.

It may also be due in large part to the fact that Windows 7 was a fresh, clean installation.



Let's hope for better hardware and a beefcake Snow Leopard to put windows back at a distant #2 choice.

Unfortunately for your "hope", Windows 7 has many optimizations and enhancements for multi-core support. Some of this is a side effect of work done on "Windows 7 Server" (to be sold as "Windows 2008 Server R2") to support up to 256 CPUs in a single system. Some of that goodness trickles down to help the dual, quad and octo systems.

It doesn't have a catchy name like "Grand Central", but the goal is the same - to make it easier for programmers to write efficient multi-threaded code. And, like 10.6, the new frameworks won't help most applications until they're rewritten to use them. In both cases, it also depends on the vendor either deciding to drop support for older systems (10.4, 10.5, XP, Vista) or to do a "fat binary" with code for old and new.
 
Hey all you nonces arguing about PC's being faster than Macs and vice versa ... Why don't you all grow up and take your tired old 'heard it all before' arguments elsewhere -I thought this thread was supposed to be out dual vs quad cores in iMacs ... not the tosh you're all writing! Most sensible mac owners know pc's are faster blah blah blah ... But that ain't the point amd it certainly isn't the point of this (original) thread!

I agree with this.
I'm about to purchase the iMac (once the new one comes out) and I keep checking this threads, but I have to sieve through a load of Mac v PC posts.
Stick on topic.
 
I agree with this.
I'm about to purchase the iMac (once the new one comes out) and I keep checking this threads, but I have to sieve through a load of Mac v PC posts.
Stick on topic.

That's because there's always some PC fanboy that rather than sticking to his/her Vista forum comes here and says things like: "I can get a better system for less money that blablabla..."
 
And if you believe that do you also believe you should buy a new Mac every 6 months because Apple releases a new model and instantly made your older kit crappy?
I have fixed this for you.

At the moment none of the hardware Apple's selling is crap, just not the "latest and greatest":rolleyes:.
It's not crap it's just horrifically overpriced in many cases for what you do get. I'm looking for better value on the computer hardware than what we're getting right now. Which means I won't be buying another Mac any time soon but I'll be spending a $100-200 every year to keep my desktop up to date.
 
@EmperorDarius, yup, I work with 2 people who had that opinion. Cheap and cheerful PC's with Vista. Ones just bought a Mac Mini, lifelong MS user and is now going to switch his whole household over to Mac, the other is awaiting the new iMac launch so he can get one and ditch his Windows machine. I'm sure a lot of people will say 'stick with XP' but that's just stupid, it's an old, outdated OS and when it comes to multitasking XP is pretty feeble, Vista is a slow bloated mess and Windows 7 is, so far, an unknow entity. We need to wait until Snow Leopard comes out before comparing. Both may support inproved multi CPU support but if OpenCL is properly implemeted and supported by software companies then theoretically the Mac versions should anihilate the Windows equivelents. It's because of the Grand Central/OpenCL benefits that I'd put money on Apple putting out the high end iMac as a quad core and leaving in dual cores for the mid/lower end for those who want to spend less and wouldn't really benefit from the extra power.
 
More to the point

That's because there's always some PC fanboy that rather than sticking to his/her Vista forum comes here and says things like: "I can get a better system for less money that blablabla..."

It would be more fair to say that many of the comments are "Why can't Apple make a system like this, at a reasonable price" - not that everyone who does a comparison is trying to get you to switch back.

It's that huge gaping hole in Apple's desktop lineup....

[mini]....[imac].........h.u.g.e...g.a.p.i.n.g...h.o.l.e.........[macpro]
 
That's because there's always some PC fanboy that rather than sticking to his/her Vista forum comes here and says things like: "I can get a better system for less money that blablabla..."

Then there is always a guy with lots of posts that comes in and says "That's because there's always some PC fanboy that rather than sticking to his/her Vista forum comes here and says things like: "I can get a better system for less money that blablabla...""

Chicken before the egg?
 
I assume that both were clean installations and you dual-booted for that test? No VMware virtual machines?

No made a brand new partition for Boot Camp and installed W7 Beta. Installed the same Photoshop CS4 trial on both osx and windows and ran the same test with nothing else open.

And I also assume that you ran a fair number of tests and took the average?
Nope, ran the test that matters the most to me. Yeah if I have 100 things open it may make a difference and I understand about clean installs, ram useage with more apps running in the background but I just wanted to do a simple test.

But to be honest I've been using it for a few weeks and I've had a mail app, chat client, office 2007, firefox and photoshop open and it has generally felt very snappy, I'm impressed.
 
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