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No made a brand new partition for Boot Camp and installed W7 Beta. Installed the same Photoshop CS4 trial on both osx and windows and ran the same test with nothing else open.

Was Vista a virtual machine, or another dual boot partition?

"Nothing else open" doesn't mean that background services won't be waking up and competing for CPU and disk bandwidth.


Nope, ran the test that matters the most to me.

Sorry, I meant rerun the same test several times. If there is other activity on the system, you'll get times that vary quite a bit. On clean, idle systems, the times should be pretty close to each other.
 
Could you post a link to the thread?
OS X has always been faster than Windows whenever for me and everyone I know who has tried both OSes, especially when multitasking. Windows has always been slower and much more prone to crashes and freezes.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/200558/

The benchmarks in question

OSX 10.5.5 = 18.5 seconds (Hackintosh)
Vista 64 = 16.5 seconds

Tested with Quadcore, Q9550 - 4Ghz.

Full system specs:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/79985

I did some OS X vs Vista 64 Photoshop tests here. In short, CS3 in OS X is 32% slower than Vista 64, using the driverheaven test.
https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/6458916/

I expect CS4 on Vista to be even faster than OS X, possibly even greater than 32% in the Driverheaven test. I'll find out when I can get the trials for them.


That's quite a gap. 32% in some of the benchmarks. I don't know how much difference the fact that it's a hackintosh makes.

edit: More info

I am not bias toward any OS. I appreciate the strengths of each one.
From a purely objective angle, I think you're dead wrong on that one. I'll show you why. These tests were done on my Hackitosh with Photoshop CS3 32bit on both platform. Times are measured in seconds:

Real World Photoshop speed test
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/200558/
OSX 10.5.5 = 18.5s
Vista 64 = 16.5s

Apple Hardware Photoshop Speed Test Thread
OS X = 9.3s
Vista 64 = 7.9s

DriverHeaven Photoshop benchmark (the toughest of these three tests).
OS X = 93.1s
Vista 64 = 70.3s


Video encoding test with Handbrake. Ripping a DVD to MP4 H.264 2-pass encode.

1st pass (average frames per second, higher = better):
OS X = 186fps
Vista 64 = 281fps (51.2% faster)

2nd pass (average frames per second, higher = better):
OS X = 138fps
Vista 64 = 199fps (44.2% faster)

Don't believe everything Apple (and the anti-Microsoft clans) tell you. ;)
 
There is nothing to suggest the results would be different on a Apple machine. I think couple of others in that thread had similar results.

Let's compare this Hackintosh:

OSX 10.5.5 = 18.5 seconds (Hackintosh)
Vista 64 = 16.5 seconds

Tested with Quadcore, Q9550 - 4Ghz.

with the Apple Machine:

22 seconds.

Dual 2.3 GHz G5
4.5 GB DDR2 SDRAM
OSX 10.5.5

The Apple Machine is a Dual 2.3 Ghz G5 yet scored only 3.5 seconds more than the Hackintosh, which was equipped with a 4GHz Quad Core.

The results in the thread are mixed and you can't really make a comparison with them.
 
Let's compare this Hackintosh:



with the Apple Machine:



The Apple Machine is a Dual 2.3 Ghz G5 yet scored only 3.5 seconds more than the Hackintosh, which was equipped with a 4GHz Quad Core.

The results in the thread are mixed and you can't really make a comparison with them.

I think it would be great if he would bootcamp Windows and see what benchmark he would get so that we could get some valid comparison. In any case, Windows, and in particular Vista is not as slow and bloated as everyone claims it to be.
 
In any case, Windows, and in particular Vista is not as slow and bloated as everyone claims it to be.

IMO it is and I think that many people will agree with me. It does get noticeably faster by disabling special effects, using the classic theme and disabling useless services, but it's still slow and resource hungry, again IMO. Talking from my and others' experience. But in any way my main concern is the general instability.
 
While you're at it, why not ask for a detachable screen too?
:p


-hh

Without getting into a whole argument about why Apple cant do this can someone honestly tell me why Apple is so far behind on things like this since the Gateway One had dual drop in hard drives way back in late 2006 early 2007.

Again I am not trying to reload the Mac vs PC argument but I do notice that many of today's most common peripherals seem not to be included on Mac desktops. Dual hard drives card readers etc. I mean these are just plain old staples in the computer world these days yet when ever some one mentions that Apple include it on a model its like "how dare you ask for such a thing"
 
While you're at it, why not ask for a detachable screen too?
:p


-hh

Actually don't need it in this instance. The iMac is going to replace my bedroom TV. Need hard disk space without the wires. I also would like the processing power on tap for converting HD television for use on our iPhones, my 360, and any other device I plan on getting.
 
Without getting into a whole argument ...

Actually, I was making a subtle dig at the xMac fans.

...but why Apple cant do this can someone honestly tell me why Apple is so far behind on things like this since the Gateway One had dual drop in hard drives way back in late 2006 early 2007.

IMO, its a question of teutonic-esque minimalism of functional design philosophy, for which one needs to challenge every feature to determine to what degree it really adds (not merely 'contributes') to the overall total.

To a great degree, this is why Apple clung to the one-button mouse for so long: multiple buttons are better for power users, but such a complex control was intimidating to the then-majority and thus, a negative instead of a positive.

Again I am not trying to reload the Mac vs PC argument but I do notice that many of today's most common peripherals seem not to be included on Mac desktops. Dual hard drives card readers etc. I mean these are just plain old staples in the computer world these days yet when ever some one mentions that Apple include it on a model its like "how dare you ask for such a thing"

When it comes to hard drives, recall that their general progression of storage capacity has broadly been 10MB - 20MB - 40MB - 80MB - 120MB - 250MB - 500MB - 1GB - 2GB - 4GB ... etc ... 40GB - 80GB - 160GB - 250GB - 500GB - 1TB ... (2TB due this summer) ... which for the most part is a doubling progression, generally paralleling the principles of Moore's Law.

And the rate of this technological progress? Just over the past few years, I've upgraded my main HD on three occasions. On each occasion, I spent roughly $100: the first time, that bought a 250GB (to replace a 160GB); the second time, a 500GB (which replaced the 250GB) and most recently, a 1TB (to replace the 500GB).

Now having additional bays around would effectively lets one retain the 'old' drive(s), but if we did so, we would see that these "leftovers" quickly gets into diminishing returns:

1 bay: 1TB total
2 bays: 1.5TB total
3 bays: 1.75TB total
4 bays: 1.90TB total

In this hypothetical example, the last (4th) bay only is adding 8% to the capacity, and the last two are only contributing ~20%. Even for going from a 1 bay to a 2 bay only adds 50% to capacity...which if I really wanted, I could have spent an extra $20 to have gotten a 1.5TB drive today to have put it into just 1 bay.

Thus, when we try to figure out how much that second bay is really "adding", one estimate would be the current cost of upgunning from 1TB to 1.5TB; another would be the difference in cost between a 500GB and a 1TB and a third method would be the cost of a 500GB drive today. Pretty much all of these are indicating today that its <$50.

From there, the next question would be to ask what the benefits are of having a small machine. This is more aesthetics for desktops, but for a laptop, its a decent chunk of additional size & weight. There is no foolproof right/wrong answer: its shades of grey and preferences ... but given a minimalist / teutonic philosophy, the extra feature probably doesn't make the grade.

In a somewhat similar fashion, let's consider a flash card slot. Because there's a billion different memory card sizes, it gets ugly (& big) fast. Also, even if you pick one fairly popular one (say, SD), you'll make a chunk of people unhappy: I'm a fairly early adopter of digital cameras, so I have 40GB+ worth of CF cards, so I'm not going to be happy to see a slot that's useless for me. Finally, except for "old" CF, all of these formats are proprietary and rapidly changing: my Thinkpad has a built-in SD slot ... which is now incompatible with SDHD cards, so I have to carry an external adaptor anyway. Thus, is adding such a feature really "better"?

Finally, because of product differentiation, Apple has the luxury of being able to make these design decisions and limit their product line variation / proliferation. One can argue that this takes choice away from the consumer, but what it also does is strengthen the brand identity and message. Dell (et al) have a different problem being that they're in a cutthroat commodity segment, so have to try to compete on a commodity basis, where for the same price, having an extra HD bay or SD card slot can be a consumer "tie-breaker", even though Dell ultimately pays for this accommodation by having a much broader product line which costs them more to logistically support.

Plus then there is also the factor of how excessive choice turns many consumers off (See the book, Paradox of Choice.., or visit Dell's mess of a website).

The Art is in trying to balance "just enough" against "too much". Philosophically, some designers prefer to err on the conservative side to prevent from going too far. For Apple, they went too far back in the dark days of the Performa proliferation of the 1990s, and that experience nearly killed the company, so it is burned into their corporate identity as something to avoid repeating at virtually all cost.

For an automotive analogy, consider Volkswagon, who up until roughly 1990, only used two different speedometer cluster designs across roughly 40 years worth of products. I learned this one by accident one day circa 1989 when waiting at a parts counter: a guy walked in, told the clerk that he needed a new speedo, and the clerk said "Okay" and headed for the bins. The customer said "Wait! I haven't told you what model VW I have". The clerk returned and said, "Oh?". Customer said a '62 Beetle ... and the clerk's reply was, "Okay, you need the other one.". Now consider for yourself how much the speedo layout influences your decision of if to buy a particular product ... and now consider how much money VW saved itself for years by only having to stock two versions...and now consider why GM/Ford/Chrysler are in so much trouble...


-hh
 
been there, done that

In this hypothetical example, the last (4th) bay only is adding 8% to the capacity, and the last two are only contributing ~20%. Even for going from a 1 bay to a 2 bay only adds 50% to capacity...which if I really wanted, I could have spent an extra $20 to have gotten a 1.5TB drive today to have put it into just 1 bay.

Having been through this upgrade process a few times, I soon realized that the most valuable resource of any system is its hard drive slots.

You only get a few of them (for most Apples, you get one), and if you fill them with small drives you don't have much disk space.

So, for me, the premise of your example is invalid, and therefore its conclusions are also invalid. I have 750 GB drives in my junk drawer, because they've been replaced by 1.5TB and 1TB drives. I won't waste a drive slot on a puny 750GB drive, it just doesn't make economic sense. When new 1TB drives are less than $90, why waste a slot on a 160GB drive? That's just stupid IMO.


... which is now incompatible with SDHD cards, so I have to carry an external adaptor anyway.

It's SDHC, but never mind, since SDHC has been superseded by SDXC which supports up to 2 TB memory cards with 300MB/sec transfer rates. http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/07/sdxc-memory-cards-promise-2tb-of-storage-300mbps-transfer/


For an automotive analogy,....

Thank you, but I'll pass a YALAA (Yet Another Lame Automotive Analogy)... ;)
 
Having been through this upgrade process a few times, I soon realized that the most valuable resource of any system is its hard drive slots.

You only get a few of them (for most Apples, you get one), and if you fill them with small drives you don't have much disk space.

So, for me, the premise of your example is invalid, and therefore its conclusions are also invalid. I have 750 GB drives in my junk drawer, because they've been replaced by 1.5TB and 1TB drives. I won't waste a drive slot on a puny 750GB drive, it just doesn't make economic sense.

YMMV, but it seems to me that a lot of people are hung up with making all desktop drives be internals. Sure, they're a bit faster I/O, but not every last inch of storage has to be the fastest possible. For example, tasks like data backups run in the background, where there's pragmatically much more time to allow them to complete, which makes a FW800 (or even FW400) or Gigabit Ethernet a perfectly acceptable solution. Even USB2 isn't all that doom-and-gloom, and an external case can be had for as little as $19.

And besides, an external makes moving one of one's data backups to a remote site all the easier to actually do, rather than talk about it. Pragmatically, this is a pretty good way to recycle/repurpose "old" drives.


When new 1TB drives are less than $90, why waste a slot on a 160GB drive? That's just stupid IMO.

Because the attitude is that an empty slot is "free".

As such, so long as there's an available slot, people will be predisposed to put an old HD in it, no matter how marginally useful it is capacity-wise.

Yes, its true that it makes more sense to spend $100 and throw away 3-4 small HDs, but since the gist of much of the PC-Mac debate is about people being cheapskates...er, frugal ... the reality is that many (if not most) of us simply won't do that.


-hh
 
YMMV, but it seems to me that a lot of people are hung up with making all desktop drives be internals.

Yes, because we've had to put up with the slow transfer rates and unreliable connections of external drives.

Put 10 Gbps Ethernet everywhere, and ISCSI on the external drives, and I'll be a happy camper.

Actually, if you put 1 Gbps Ethernet and ISCSI everywhere I'd be happy.

Oh wait - do Apples support ISCSI?
 
Yes, because we've had to put up with the slow transfer rates and unreliable connections of external drives.

Put 10 Gbps Ethernet everywhere, and ISCSI on the external drives, and I'll be a happy camper.

Actually, if you put 1 Gbps Ethernet and ISCSI everywhere I'd be happy.

Oh wait - do Apples support ISCSI?

Wouldn't an eSATA connection be faster than iSCSI?
And Apple has been fans of using Internal and External Versions of the same bus. Desktops could have to locked connector without tripping issues. If they use nVidia chipsets in the iMac they still have 4 spare SATA hooks.
 
Wouldn't an eSATA connection be faster than iSCSI?
And Apple has been fans of using Internal and External Versions of the same bus. Desktops could have to locked connector without tripping issues. If they use nVidia chipsets in the iMac they still have 4 spare SATA hooks.

No Apple has eSATA though, you need to buy a PC laptop or desktop to get eSATA. Apple is not an eSATA fan...,
 
No Apple has eSATA though, you need to buy a PC laptop or desktop to get eSATA. Apple is not an eSATA fan...,

Which is why I didn't say they where.

They have been moving towards SATA for internal use.
They have adopted (mini) DisplayPort bus for both internal and external display connections on the most recent updates. Also the use of ExpressCard which extends the PCI bus from Internal to External (depending on card mode as cards can run in USB mode)which they moved pretty to support.

So it would seem that if they can to use the same bus for internal and external they do. Or sure it's a general industry trend. Yet do have a habit of not following trends unless they make sense to them.

So on the Laptop they don't like you attaching stuff. If you do they want it to break away easy with out damage. So on this front eSATA loses out.

Desktops are another story, so it will be interesting to see if eSATA makes and appearance on the future updates.
 
There is nothing to suggest the results would be different on a Apple machine. I think couple of others in that thread had similar results.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/apple-macbook-laptop,2132-5.html

Tomshardware did a review of benching a legit Macbook and putting a hackintosh build on the same Macbook.. result? Approx 18% slower performance on the hackintosh OS build on a real macbook.

Can't say for certain or with any degree of confidence that it would skew the numbers, but the possibility does exist that the hackintosh could be crippled.
 
No Apple has eSATA though, you need to buy a PC laptop or desktop to get eSATA. Apple is not an eSATA fan...,

I surely hope they put eSATA on the iMac or MacPro. On the laptops, I can't imagine Apple putting one of the Macbooks. Since eSATA is not powered, you will still have to have an external plug in power source for the drive connected to eSATA. Not the best portable connectivity option compared to bus-powered firewire or USB. For desktops, eSATA is great, which is why I have two 4 port eSATA cards in my Mac Pro.
 
Don't know if this ties in with other countries but...

I have access to the online stock facility of one of the UK's Apple distributers.

As of today they have:

MB323B/A: Apple - iMac 20" 2.4GHz/1GB/250GB/SD - 50 in stock
MB324B/A: Apple - iMac 20" 2.66GHz/2GB/320GB/SD - 59 due 16/2/09
MB325B/A: Apple - iMac 24" 2.8GHz/2GB/320GB/SD - 54 due 16/2/09

I seem to remember the last time new product revisions came, they didn't show the same product codes as being due more stock. After all, if it was a different part code (which a new iMac would be) why would there stock facility say 54 of that product code were en-route.

Disappointingly, I have a feeling that come 16th February we won't see different models. Just more of the same ones.

Unless of course it is a conscious ploy to make us think that but I doubt it.
 
Wouldn't an eSATA connection be faster than iSCSI?

Technically yes, but pragmatically no. This is because normal hard disk I/O per spindle is the current bottleneck, the real world differences are minimal until you're running a RAID 0, or a vastly more expensive high speed (eg 15K) drive.

Currently, most standard HD's are <100MB/sec sustained, so any I/O protocol with more than that amount of bandwidth won't pragmatically be saturated (bottlenecked), particularly once you add a cache to the HD to buffer out peaks.

As such, this same "faster, but so what?" situation generally applies for Gigabit Ethernet and FW800 (almost; call it a 90% solution) too, with the usual caveats of overhead (protocol efficiency) and competing traffic, which means that there can be some really bad implementations out there to avoid (eg, some cheap NAS's)

Regarding eSATA on a Mac, it is available; just not merely as an OEM with a clean external port directly off the motherboard (the latter mentioned so as to exclude counting the mini). However, this 'technically available' doesn't automatically mean that it makes sense for Apple.

Keep in mind that externalized SATA initially got a black eye amongst the general public, partly due to a lack of standards causing problems. IIRC, the higher end users also complained that the SATA plugs would wear out if used too often, rendering some externals useless. As such, the first generation of external SATA isn't the same as eSATA (varying compatibilities), although the good news is that these incompatibilities are now subsiding and (mostly) disappearing from the marketplace.

In any event, the real strength of eSATA isn't significant until one is driving 15K drives and/or a RAID from a single port (vs 1:1 ratios), which is hardly the realm of "Mom & Pop" consumer level applications. Thus, if you need the big iron, then you're running a Mac Pro anyway, for which it is a straightforward PCI card expansion and several companies make Mac-compatible eSATA cards today, including Sonnet. I got mine used on eBay for cheap.

However, for the generic PC suppliers offering it (as an OEM) does make some sense, since it is another example of a means of attempting to "out-feature" differentiate their product from the rest of their commodity-centric competition, and its not that expensive to add an external port driven by an existing controller, even if its real world utility to a bean-counting shopper isn't necessarily all that great. One can probably argue that since adding a FW controller to a PC's motherboard would have increased its cost, eSATA is the poor man's Firewire800 port, and it has essentially only been through the cutthroat nature of the PC commodity marketplace that it has gotten as far as it has.

FWIW, USB3 is another beast and it is going to cause a healthy chunk of pain for consumers, since USB2 cables aren't forwards-compatible.

-hh
 
Then there is always a guy with lots of posts that comes in and says "That's because there's always some PC fanboy that rather than sticking to his/her Vista forum comes here and says things like: "I can get a better system for less money that blablabla...""

Chicken before the egg?

just as there is some mac fanboi who will claim a two year old tech wise mini convinced a family of a friend of a cousin of an ex-girlfriend's vet to switch.


yeah, whatever
 
just as there is some mac fanboi who will claim a two year old tech wise mini convinced a family of a friend of a cousin of an ex-girlfriend's vet to switch.


yeah, whatever

IMHO people switch from Windows to Mac because of the OS, not because of the hardware (further proof would be all those hackintoshes out there).

As an example, I went from a 1.8GHz Athlon, Radeon 9600XT/128MB Windows XP PC to a 1.42GHz G4, Radeon 9200/32MB Mac OS X Mac mini, and I was more impressed by what Mac OS X was able to do with the hardware in the Mac mini (except for games of course, because of the weak GPU).

It's all about the software. As another example, I prefer the Wii to either the Xbox360 or the PS3. I like to play Zelda and Metroid, so those other two consoles are useless to me.
 
IMHO people switch from Windows to Mac because of the OS, not because of the hardware (further proof would be all those hackintoshes out there).

As an example, I went from a 1.8GHz Athlon, Radeon 9600XT/128MB Windows XP PC to a 1.42GHz G4, Radeon 9200/32MB Mac OS X Mac mini, and I was more impressed by what Mac OS X was able to do with the hardware in the Mac mini (except for games of course, because of the weak GPU).

It's all about the software. As another example, I prefer the Wii to either the Xbox360 or the PS3. I like to play Zelda and Metroid, so those other two consoles are useless to me.

That's totally correct. By 'a Mac' people usually mean 'Computer with Mac OS X' and not simply 'Computer made by Apple'. I myself switched to a Mac because I really prefer OS X, not because the hardware has an Apple Logo.
 
IMHO people switch from Windows to Mac because of the OS, not because of the hardware (further proof would be all those hackintoshes out there).

As an example, I went from a 1.8GHz Athlon, Radeon 9600XT/128MB Windows XP PC to a 1.42GHz G4, Radeon 9200/32MB Mac OS X Mac mini, and I was more impressed by what Mac OS X was able to do with the hardware in the Mac mini (except for games of course, because of the weak GPU).

Yes and no. Like there is no blanket Mac user, there are also different groups of switchers. There are a lot of users drawn to Apple by the Ive designs. They're willing to pay extra for something more stylish than your standard windows tower. For those with everyday needs, I don't blame them. An iMac or Macbook can do everything your standard best buy machine does while saving space and adding to the aesthetic appeal of a room. For a family machine I would buy nothing else.

On the other hand, you have those who want a little more power, but love the OS. While the iMac is perfectly tailored for the home family, education, and even office environments, it doesn't scale up well at all. While I would buy it again if I ever had kids and would recommend it to anyone in my family, I will not buy one again. You have switchers who have similar concerns. They're very interested in the power and usability of OSX, but also know the practicality and power of a tower design and aren't really interested in a xeon workstation. They either stay windows and dream of the day where they can go with a Mac or the boldest and most independent go the OSx86 route.
 
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