Imagination Technologies Remains For Sale as No Progress Made in Dispute With Apple

[StyxMaker]

Thanks, I just did some further digging for my own curiousity and found this:
Without Apple Inc., Imagination Technologies' PowerVR Has No Future

Thanks for the link, that explains the situation quite well.

 

[CWallace]

Apple killed them on purpose, the EU need to fine them.

Guess the EU should also fine them for killing PowerPC, NuBus, FireWire and Classic OS...

 

[gnasher729]

That's not how it works. If Imagination thinks Apple is infringing its IP, then it has to prove it. Apple doesn't have to prove the reverse.

Note that right now, Apple has licenses and is allowed to use Imagination's technology, so as of today, Apple is not infringing on anything. Imagination is claiming that once the licenses run out, Apple _will_ infringe on their patents. And Apple says no, we won't. I cannot see how Imagination can make any claims until Apple's licenses run out.
[doublepost=1499206091][/doublepost]

I think so, and if it does happen, with any luck Imagination will have them in British courts and Apple will find it a lot tougher to win.

Because of the language barrier?

 

[apolloa]

Considering how often Apple gets sued for patent infringement by "patent trolls", I would expect they've done their due diligence to ensure that they have removed any proprietary Imagination IP from their design. As cmaier noted, it is up to Imagination to prove that Apple is illegally using their IP. If they feel they have a case, they'll sure when Apple launches their first GPU after the license agreement is terminated.




The Rule of Law still applies in the UK so I would expect if Imagination does sue in a UK court, the case will be adjudicated on the facts and not the local interest.



While Steve Jobs quoted Pablo Picasso about "good artists copy; great artists steal", Picasso meant that great artists learn from past masters, incorporating what they like into their own idea and creating something unique from it.

So Apple will have certainly learned from using Imagination's PowerVR IP under license on how to create a mobile device GPU, but they will not just simply copy it - which would be IP infringement. They will instead use it as the inspiration to create their own, unique GPU that does not infringe (in Apple's mind) on Imagination's IP.

If any case is raised against Apple, they try their best to have it heard in courts in their home state, because they will favour Apple and not the law per say, in the UK Apple has never been very successful in the courts as they do not favour them and corrupt the verdicts.

We will see if the don't infringe patents but Apple isn't afraid of doing this to others, hence my apprehension.

 

[CWallace]

If any case is raised against Apple, they try their best to have it heard in courts in their home state, because they will favour Apple and not the law per say, in the UK Apple has never been very successful in the courts as they do not favour them and corrupt the verdicts.

Ah, well in that case if Apple loses, the fines will only apply in the UK and Apple can just raise iPhone prices in the UK to cover it. Call it an "Imagination Tax" in addition to the VAT.

 

[apolloa]

i really don't think this is about Apple trying to save money or not pay Imagination.
they currently license the tech for about $100million per year... in devices that brought Apple over $150billion in revenue.. like, Apple is getting a serious bargain from Imagination.. for Apple to do what's being hinted at (in house GPU design), they're going to be spending much more than they spend on Imagination in R&D costs alone.

Apple's goal, it seems to me, is to put themselves in position to continue offering users a different experience than what everyone else is doing.. and the more everyone is using the same technology, the more difficult it becomes for Apple to differentiate themselves from the pack..

it appears (to me at least), Apple is positioning itself for the next 10years (and beyond).. the last 10 years has been iOS.. the next 10 will/could likely be viewed as iOS 2.0.. the AR years.

their own GPU along with their own software (Metal) gives them a pretty serious advantage, or at least a very strong standing amongst other players, moving into the future (imo).

I don't consider a google glass copy to be the future, but maybe your right and Apple do. I find AR to be utterly pointless in most situations, and I don't need to point the camera at something and get its life history.
[doublepost=1499206663][/doublepost]

Ah, well in that case if Apple loses, the fines will only apply in the UK and Apple can just raise iPhone prices in the UK to cover it. Call it an "Imagination Tax" in addition to the VAT.

They can price themselves out if the market if they want to, I think their sales have dropped here with the 7, because they whacked their prices up significantly using Brexit as an excuse and the usual price hike for a new phone.

 

[macfacts]

i really don't think this is about Apple trying to save money or not pay Imagination.
they currently license the tech for about $100million per year... in devices that brought Apple over $150billion in revenue.. like, Apple is getting a serious bargain from Imagination.. for Apple to do what's being hinted at (in house GPU design), they're going to be spending much more than they spend on Imagination in R&D costs alone.

Apple's goal, it seems to me, is to put themselves in position to continue offering users a different experience than what everyone else is doing.. and the more everyone is using the same technology, the more difficult it becomes for Apple to differentiate themselves from the pack..

it appears (to me at least), Apple is positioning itself for the next 10years (and beyond).. the last 10 years has been iOS.. the next 10 will/could likely be viewed as iOS 2.0.. the AR years.

their own GPU along with their own software (Metal) gives them a pretty serious advantage, or at least a very strong standing amongst other players, moving into the future (imo).

Apple "stole" the engineers from Imagination. Apple is looking at the next iPhone, not something 10 years from now.

 

[flat five]

I don't consider a google glass copy to be the future, but maybe your right and Apple do. I find AR to be utterly pointless in most situations, and I don't need to point the camera at something and get its life history.

it will be interesting to hear your thoughts regarding AR in 5 years.

 

[cmaier]

Note that right now, Apple has licenses and is allowed to use Imagination's technology, so as of today, Apple is not infringing on anything. Imagination is claiming that once the licenses run out, Apple _will_ infringe on their patents. And Apple says no, we won't. I cannot see how Imagination can make any claims until Apple's licenses run out.
[doublepost=1499206091][/doublepost]
Because of the language barrier?

Agreed. Imagination appears to be taking the position that it is impossible to design a mobile GPU which would not require a license. i assume ARM, intel, NVIDIA, and AMD might disagree.

 

[flat five]

Apple "stole" the engineers from Imagination. Apple is looking at the next iPhone, not something 10 years from now.

huh? they've been known to be developing GPUs in Orlando since 2013.. it's also been know they've hired engineers from other companies at that time, most notable being AMD.

so you're saying they've been working on strictly this year's iPhone for the past 4 years?.. and not something further down the road or more encompassing?


----
edit-
a few macrumors stories on this from 2013:

https://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/16/apple-hiring-chip-engineers-for-orlando-design-center/
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/2...es-for-an-orlando-gpu-team-still-hiring-more/
https://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/31/more-details-on-apples-new-orlando-gpu-design-center/

"With its hiring of these 3D graphics specialists, Apple is likely working to redevelop its 3D graphics capabilities in its iOS devices."
​

..sounds a lot different than "Apple is looking at the next iPhone.. not something into the future"

 

[Wanted797]

I fail to see why Apple has to disclose how they're going to continue without infringing on patents.

They don't have to announce anything until they want to.

 

[cmaier]

I don't consider a google glass copy to be the future, but maybe your right and Apple do. I find AR to be utterly pointless in most situations, and I don't need to point the camera at something and get its life history.
[doublepost=1499206663][/doublepost]

They can price themselves out if the market if they want to, I think their sales have dropped here with the 7, because they whacked their prices up significantly using Brexit as an excuse and the usual price hike for a new phone.

Brexit isn't an "excuse." A pound is worth fewer dollars than it was, so it takes more pounds to equal the same number of dollars. If the British don't want to pay more, they should have thought of that before voting like a collection of xenophobic loonies.
[doublepost=1499207511][/doublepost]

Apple "stole" the engineers from Imagination. Apple is looking at the next iPhone, not something 10 years from now.

Apple's CPU team includes dozens of folks I used to work with at AMD. I don't see AMD whining about it. People are free to work where they'd like - even engineers aren't slaves.

 

[apolloa]

it will be interesting to hear your thoughts regarding AR in 5 years.

Oh I don't doubt that...
[doublepost=1499208685][/doublepost]

Brexit isn't an "excuse." A pound is worth fewer dollars than it was, so it takes more pounds to equal the same number of dollars. If the British don't want to pay more, they should have thought of that before voting like a collection of xenophobic loonies.
[doublepost=1499207511][/doublepost]

Apple's CPU team includes dozens of folks I used to work with at AMD. I don't see AMD whining about it. People are free to work where they'd like - even engineers aren't slaves.

The pound dropped because of the vote so Aplle wacked its prices up, by 25%... of course the pound has recovered a fair bit but Apple hasn't dropped its prices..
And we are not xenophobic loonies, were Americans xenophobic loonies for wanting independence? Such an utterly ridiculous term used by left wing liberalist crazies or those that have no clue about it all.

 

[cmaier]

Oh I don't doubt that...
[doublepost=1499208685][/doublepost]

The pound dropped because of the vote so Aplle wacked its prices up, by 25%... of course the pound has recovered a fair bit but Apple hasn't dropped its prices..
And we are not xenophobic loonies, were Americans xenophobic loonies for wanting independence? Such an utterly ridiculous term used by left wing liberalist crazies or those that have no clue about it all.

The pound dropped from more than 1.6 dollars to less than 1.3, so 25% doesn't seem outrageous (especially since they can't change their prices daily)

And the U.K. had representation in the EU. The American colonies had none in England. Big difference.

So now you get to live with your vote. Have fun with that.

 

[mi7chy]

Lesson learned is any vendor that does business with Apple's restrictive terms eventually goes bankrupt.

Tim Crook and his cronies should be sitting in Gitmo since they do much more harm to the West than all immates combined for colluding with foreign state to bankrupt Western companies and steal their IPs.

http://www.businessinsider.com/gt-advanced-apple-unsealed-court-document-2014-11

"Some of the terms outlined in the document that GT wasn't too excited about include a $50 million penalty per occurrence that any aspect of GT's agreement with Apple were disclosed, and a $1 billion penalty if GT doesn't honor Apple's 30 day exclusivity window should GT seek to sell its assets, or its sapphire business, or receives interest from a third party."

"This agreement also stated that GT could not do business with any of Apple's competitors"

 

[cmaier]

Lesson learned is any vendor that does business with Apple's restrictive terms eventually goes bankrupt.

Which restrictive term are you referring to? The one that says apple can stop doing business with imagination when they want to?

 

[IG88]

Considering how often Apple gets sued for patent infringement by "patent trolls", I would expect they've done their due diligence to ensure that they have removed any proprietary Imagination IP from their design. As cmaier noted, it is up to Imagination to prove that Apple is illegally using their IP. If they feel they have a case, they'll sure when Apple launches their first GPU after the license agreement is terminated.

The Rule of Law still applies in the UK so I would expect if Imagination does sue in a UK court, the case will be adjudicated on the facts and not the local interest.

While Steve Jobs quoted Pablo Picasso about "good artists copy; great artists steal", Picasso meant that great artists learn from past masters, incorporating what they like into their own idea and creating something unique from it.

So Apple will have certainly learned from using Imagination's PowerVR IP under license on how to create a mobile device GPU, but they will not just simply copy it - which would be IP infringement. They will instead use it as the inspiration to create their own, unique GPU that does not infringe (in Apple's mind) on Imagination's IP.

I'm having trouble following your logic. So in essence, because Apple gets sued for stealing IP a lot, and because they have a lot of practice stealing IP, they're really good at it....and therefore not infringing?

 

[Strigoi]

S*cks for them. But isn't one of the most important rules of having a business 'Don't put all your money on one horse'. If Apple is 70% or more of the revenue then that's a pretty big bet to make.

 

[jasonefmonk]

They can price themselves out if the market if they want to, I think their sales have dropped here with the 7, because they whacked their prices up significantly using Brexit as an excuse and the usual price hike for a new phone.

That's pretty short sighted, a company can't sell everything for the same number in differently valued currencies around the world.

After our dollar took a dip in Canada (and didn't show signs of quick recovery), Apple raised our prices too. Everyone keeps talking about "a thousand dollar iPhone" from the United States, when I bought my iPhone 7 Plus 256GB it cost me $1,309CAD before taxes.

It wasn't only the price of Apple products that changed, either.

 

[CarlJ]

I agree. They've decided that, for their own purposes, there is a better architecture than imagination's, with the added benefit that they can control it and use it as a differentiator. They are probably going to come up with their own thing that scales from watch to desktop, and provides optimized performance per watt with their own software technologies.

Apple has a long history of ending up beholden to someone else's whims and schedules, and they really don't like it - they tend to head off in another direction to get control back:

- Metroworks C compiler. If I recall correctly, a lot of big name players (like, but not necessarily including, Microsoft, Adobe, etc.) wrote their Mac software using the Metroworks C compiler and associated libraries, rather than following Apple's path, and then Metroworks cast the compiler adrift, and Apple was stuck supporting older APIs for many years because these major players didn't want to put in the effort to move to newer frameworks. This lead to iOS supporting only Xcode for a long time, and Apple working to keep Flash off the platform. Aside from Flash sucking battery life and being full of security holes, if significant amounts of software, early on, had been written that required Flash, it would have meant Apple being tied to Adobe's whims. With everyone required to use Xcode for the first few years, Apple was able to control the path the iPhone took and the speed on that path.

- CPU chips. If I recall correctly, Apple went with Motorola's PowerPC chips as an upgrade from the 68K series to gain speed/capabilities, then suffered under years of Motorola delivering underwhelming speed upgrades, then they moved up to IBM's PowerPC chips with IBM assuring them there was a lovely roadmap ahead, then IBM couldn't (or lost interest and didn't care to) deliver chips that were fast enough, or power efficient enough, so we never got that PowerBook G5. This caused Apple to jump to Intel's x86 family. And they're still not always getting what they want from Intel (and for a long time Intel really wanted their CPUs in iPhones, but Apple would have none of it). When it came time to pick a CPU for a phone, Apple went with ARM, and, more importantly, went into designing in-house variants as soon as they could. This means they, once again, were in charge of the path, and the speed on that path.

Now, Apple has been screaming from the rooftops (in their own fashion, which means that Tim Cook has mentioned it casually but not accidentally on numerous occasions) that they think AR will be big in the near future. AR requires really good GPUs (and for mobile use, they need to be very power efficient). Apple wants to control the path they're on for GPUs.

So this move into GPUs is quite obvious, Apple have shown themselves to be quite capable of building really excellent chip-level hardware, and it looks to me like one of two conditions it true:
1. It is possible to build a viable GPU without infringing Imagination Technologies' patents, and Apple will do so.
2. There is no possible way to build a viable GPU without infringing said patents. This would be a condemnation of the current state of the patent system in general, or an indication that said patents are overly broad.

As an aside, if they do eventually do an ARM-based Mac (not to replace the x86 but as an option), it'll once again be to be in control of the path. And a desktop class Apple CPU (think dozens of cores instead of 4-6) with a desktop class Apple GPU, could make for a very interesting macOS laptop - powerful but power sipping.

 

[bodonnell202]

A couple of questions:
Do all mobile phone makers use Imagination Technologies PowerVR graphic technology, like say Samsung, HTC, LG etc?
If other mobiles vendors use something else, anyone know what?

Nope, Samsung uses Mali graphics (an ARM design) in their Exynos chips. Most other Android manufacturers use Qualcomm Snapdragon chips which have Adreno graphics in them (Qualcomm's in house graphics design based on IP they purchased from AMD many years ago...)

 

[GadgetBen]

House Stark will rise again

 

[dotnet]

"The management team have done a tremendous job over the last year, turning the business around, returning it to profitability and with a clear strategy for growth," said chairman Peter Hill. "It's therefore highly regrettable that this progress has been so severely impacted by the stance taken by Apple."

Sure, blame your customer for walking away. The hallmark of a failing business.

 

[sinsin07]

Nope, Samsung uses Mali graphics (an ARM design) in their Exynos chips. Most other Android manufacturers use Qualcomm Snapdragon chips which have Adreno graphics in them (Qualcomm's in house graphics design based on IP they purchased from AMD many years ago...)

Thanks, but I covered this in the link in post 16.

 

[iZac]

In other shocking news, H&M failed to sue me because I stopped shopping there.