In a matter of generations is the English dialect changing significantly?

[Scepticalscribe]

Scepticalscribe,

Maybe it is a difference between American English and UK English but isn't "vocabulary" in the way you used it uncountable (or a non-count noun)?

Mecha

Sorry.

Maybe I am just tired, but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

What do you mean by an 'uncountable' noun?

But, yes, I will admit that sometimes, I feel I need a translator to explain some of the terms and phrases and - even vocabulary - used in American English.

Actually, this - keeping abreast of changes in the language - is one of the things I find most instructive about my membership of this forum; ever since I left the groves of academe, I have lost touch with the way young people speak, the sort of slang they use, and how they use argot to explore, test, challenge and change the language. My students used to be wonderful - and wonderfully generous - educators in the minutiae of contemporary dialect.

 

[D.T.]

Sorry.

Maybe I am just tired, but I don't understand what you are trying to say.

What do you mean by an 'uncountable' noun?

Non-count nouns, i.e., nouns with only a singular form, that represent a collection, or abstraction that can't be componentized (or has a different word for the component parts).

Money for example, not moneys, and so 'money is', or have I have many dollars (dollar being a countable noun component of money).

You used vocabulary is a plural form, 'vocabulary are', I guess they were asking about vocabulary being non-count/uncountable/singular only - that being said, I've seen plenty of singular/plural variants in many languages/dialects/etc. I kind of like vocabulary as a countable noun ... !

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Non-count nouns, i.e., nouns with only a singular form, that represent a collection, or abstraction that can't be componentized (or has a different word for the component parts).

Money for example, not moneys, and so 'money is', or have I have many dollars (dollar being a countable noun component of money).

You used vocabulary is a plural form, 'vocabulary are', I guess they were asking about vocabulary being non-count/uncountable/singular only - that being said, I've seen plenty of singular/plural variants in many languages/dialects/etc. I kind of like vocabulary as a countable noun ... !

Ah. This side of The Pond, we don't use the expression 'countable' nouns.

But, yes, now I see what you meant - that mistake was mine - I was typing without my glasses, and didn't preview the post.

I should have written - or meant to - write that 'most of my vocabulary came from books'.

However, - while I am not blaming (well, yes I suppose I am) the spell check (that was my carelessness) I have noticed that the spell check here sometimes alters perfectly good words I have used into what it thinks I should have used. What I will say is that I don't usually make errors like that.

Fair enough. While I am tempted to edit it, I'll leave it, as it is now a subject for discussion.

 

[MechaSpanky]

Scepticalscribe,

D.T. was right, I was referring to you saying "vocabulary are....." instead of "vocabulary is.....". Normally vocabulary is a singular uncountable noun but it can be used as a countable noun. If you use it as a countable noun, you would say "vocabularies are....".

Some English books say "countable" or "count" nouns and "uncountable" or "non-count" nouns, I have also read the term "mass nouns" as well but I prefer to use countable and uncountable. I believe that Cambridge uses the term countable and uncountable (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/nouns-countable-and-uncountable). Some words are treated differently in the UK than the US. I sometimes read UK printed books where they use "staff" as countable when in the US we would use it as uncountable (UK-staffs are....., US-staff is......) but in that case I believe both are acceptable. Just an interesting difference. For non-native speakers, using countable and uncountable nouns correctly is very difficult.

In a related topic, I don't like it when people use company names with a plural verb. For example, "Apple are going to make......." instead of "Apple is going to make........". For some reason it just feels wrong to me. I was told that it is used like that more often in the UK than in the US but it just doesn't sound right to me.

Mecha

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Scepticalscribe,

D.T. was right, I was referring to you saying "vocabulary are....." instead of "vocabulary is.....". Normally vocabulary is a singular uncountable noun but it can be used as a countable noun. If you use it as a countable noun, you would say "vocabularies are....".

Some English books say "countable" or "count" nouns and "uncountable" or "non-count" nouns, I have also read the term "mass nouns" as well but I prefer to use countable and uncountable. I believe that Cambridge uses the term countable and uncountable (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/nouns-countable-and-uncountable). Some words are treated differently in the UK than the US. I sometimes read UK printed books where they use "staff" as countable when in the US we would use it as uncountable (UK-staffs are....., US-staff is......) but in that case I believe both are acceptable. Just an interesting difference. For non-native speakers, using countable and uncountable nouns correctly is very difficult.

In a related topic, I don't like it when people use company names with a plural verb. For example, "Apple are going to make......." instead of "Apple is going to make........". For some reason it just feels wrong to me. I was told that it is used like that more often in the UK than in the US but it just doesn't sound right to me.

Mecha

If I had been concentrating (or had re-read my post before pressing 'post reply') that wouldn't have happened.

Actually, I find that I make far more mistakes on a computer than I ever did on a typewriter, or when writing by hand.

Sometimes, it is (deficient) eyesight, sometimes spellcheck (grr), and sometimes, just failing to spot an error before clicking on that inviting button.

But, yes, this stuff is interesting.

 

[D.T.]

Some words are treated differently in the UK than the US. I sometimes read UK printed books where they use "staff" as countable when in the US we would use it as uncountable (UK-staffs are....., US-staff is......) but in that case I believe both are acceptable. Just an interesting difference. For non-native speakers, using countable and uncountable nouns correctly is very difficult.

Ahh, yeah, this did evolve into an interesting discussion. The common example I see of this is the UK 'Maths'.

I see your location is Japan, is English your 2nd language?

In a related topic, I don't like it when people use company names with a plural verb. For example, "Apple are going to make......." instead of "Apple is going to make........". For some reason it just feels wrong to me. I was told that it is used like that more often in the UK than in the US but it just doesn't sound right to me.

Yes! That's what I call an "implied plural", like Apple is a collective of people (buildings, etc.), but when used alone it's - at least in my mind - it should refer to the singular company entity.

i.e., "The engineers at Apple ARE going to build a new computer" vs. "Apple IS going to have an outstanding 3rd quarter this year"

 

[MechaSpanky]

D.T.

I live in Japan but I'm not Japanese but after living here for a long time, I experienced first hand how difficult it is for Japanese English speakers to use countable and uncountable nouns correctly. The Japanese language doesn't have countable nouns or even plural nouns and so it is very difficult for them. Almost everyone I work with is either from the UK or from a common wealth country so they all use UK English and so I notice small but interesting differences all the time. Maths is a good one and it is easy to imagine how Mathematics could be shortened to both Math and Maths.

One of the things that I find hard to understand about UK English is this:
UK "I'm changing job next month".
US "I'm changing jobs next month".

As well, I learned the rules for using articles (a, an, the) with places like school & prison. If you go to the place (or building) for the purpose that the place was made then you should omit the article. If you are going there for other reasons then you should use the article. So for example if you are a student "I'm going to school" if you are not a student or a teacher "I'm going to the school". Prison is the same. If you are a prisoner you are "in prison". If you go to visit someone who is a prisoner, you go to "the prison". Those are easy to understand and in my experience most people follow those rules. What makes me crazy is, hospital should also follow the same rules but it doesn't. Or maybe hospital originally did follow the rules but later changed? Americans normally say "the hospital". I most often hear UK speakers say "hospital" with the article omitted completely. US "She in the hospital", UK "She's in hospital". The thing I wonder about is, in the UK most of the time I hear people say "I'm going to hospital to see her" instead of "I'm going to the hospital to see her". So in US English "She's in the hospital" doesn't follow the rule and in UK English "I'm going to hospital to see her" also doesn't follow the rule.

In the end it doesn't really matter but it makes it very difficult for non-native speakers to use English properly!

 

[Zaap]

For me, it's people who say "Y'know what I'm sayin'?" every other sentence they speak.

If find it's inevitable that a person using excessive "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" I WON'T know what they are saying.

I get the feeling that people are taught you MUST fill the natural space between spoken thoughts with *something* so there's various "word salad" combinations for it.

So if there's a moment's pause for one's brain to actually gather and present the next thought, the impulse in the meantime is: "fill in with word-salad!"

Hence, excessive "like..! like..." and "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" etc.

 

[0388631]

I don't hear that a lot, Zaap. I hear the word "like" a lot. I'm guilty of using it myself on occasion, but people under the age of 35 often use it when they can't form their words.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

For me, it's people who say "Y'know what I'm sayin'?" every other sentence they speak.

If find it's inevitable that a person using excessive "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" I WON'T know what they are saying.

I get the feeling that people are taught you MUST fill the natural space between spoken thoughts with *something* so there's various "word salad" combinations for it.

So if there's a moment's pause for one's brain to actually gather and present the next thought, the impulse in the meantime is: "fill in with word-salad!"

Hence, excessive "like..! like..." and "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" etc.

I don't hear that a lot, Zaap. I hear the word "like" a lot. I'm guilty of using it myself on occasion, but people under the age of 35 often use it when they can't form their words.

That begs the question of how people learn to form sentences, and what sources (parents, teachers, peers, radio, TV, books, online & social media sources, and so on) influence them when and while they are learning the language.

If the models you learn from do not themselves speak grammatically correct and properly constructed sentences, then, what you learn about language - and how you learn to speak - will, inevitably, sound as though the person has not learned to speak correctly.

Ultimately, though, the best way of learning to speak a formal language is not just to listen when others are speaking (and learn form those who speak well), but to read extensively so that the knowledge of how the language is constructed becomes almost second nature to you.

 

[0388631]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Those with poor vocabulary make poor choices in terms of the material they take in. As a former educator, you know how crucial it is for people to continue taking in quality material to expand their knowledge.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Those with poor vocabulary make poor choices in terms of the material they take in. As a former educator, you know how crucial it is for people to continue taking in quality material to expand their knowledge.

Even quality kids' books! As a teacher, I didn't mind what they were reading, as long as they were reading regularly. Reading develops its own momentum, and kids who read a lot tend to have expanded vocabularies and a better understanding of how to express themselves clearly and correctly in writing.

Seriously, if they were reading Enid Blyton and Harry Potter (among others) as kids, this will make it far easier for them to make the transition to making sense of, being able to understand, and - being able to use - proper texts as they grow older.

 

[D.T.]

D.T.

I live in Japan but I'm not Japanese but after living here for a long time, I experienced first hand how difficult it is for Japanese English speakers to use countable and uncountable nouns correctly. The Japanese language doesn't have countable nouns or even plural nouns and so it is very difficult for them.

Interesting! I took 2 semesters of Japanese back in college (it was a newly introduced class which was fun). Learned to write katakana, hiragana, and about 250 of the most common kanji, and some basic sentence structures, standard phrases, etc., and yes, I got to learn about plurals (or the lack thereof) and counters/quantifiers which an interesting concept and leads to the common misuse in English by Asian folks, i.e., "I need five pencil".

 

[Roller]

For me, it's people who say "Y'know what I'm sayin'?" every other sentence they speak.

If find it's inevitable that a person using excessive "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" I WON'T know what they are saying.

I get the feeling that people are taught you MUST fill the natural space between spoken thoughts with *something* so there's various "word salad" combinations for it.

So if there's a moment's pause for one's brain to actually gather and present the next thought, the impulse in the meantime is: "fill in with word-salad!"

Hence, excessive "like..! like..." and "Y'knowwhatI'msayin'?" etc.

My advice is to just fuhgeddaboudit.

 

[0388631]

Even quality kids' books! As a teacher, I did;t mind what they were reading, as long as they were reading regularly. Reading develops its own momentum, and kids who read a lot tend to have expanded vocabularies and a better understanding of how to express themselves clearly and correctly in writing.

Seriously, if they were reading Enid Blyton and Harry Potter (among others) as kids, this will make it far easier for them to make the transition to making sense of, being able to understand, and - being able to use - proper texts as they grow older.

Exactly. I read to my children. They may or may not understand the words at this point, but it's an enjoyable experience for all of us. A good book can be finished in a day or two. You have no idea, or you do, how many people say they don't have the time to read a book. Yet they'll spend 90% of their freetime on their phone.

 

[Huntn]

Omg, Sienfeld stole bla, bla, bla!

I was floored when I heard this in the 1931 movie Delicious.

 

[colourfastt]

Whenever someone says, "So...." I can't help but interject before they end the pause with, "A needle pulling thread...!" (A nod to the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti song from The Sound Of Music).

I wholeheartedly agree with the pled and pleaded. The word, as I knew it growing up, was "Pled." Pleaded sounds like someone who does not know the past tense of the verb plea (As opposed to the noun).

The other one that I hear often that makes me cringe is "Often." I was taught and raised to pronounce the word with a silent "T." When I hear the "T" pronounced, I immediately judge the utterer ignorant. To me it is the same thing when people actually pronounce the last letter in the proper noun, "Illinois."

I do not know if it is generational or regional, the pronunciation difference between "Rout" and "Root" for the word "Route." Paper route, Route 66, et cetera. I was taught the "Rout" pronunciation.

You know who says the phrase, "My pleasure." ad nauseum? Every employee of Chick-fil-A.

For me it would be those who pronounce issue as "i-shoe" rather than "iss-u"; also, "sked-u-le" rather "shed-u-le".

 

[Huntn]

Whenever someone says, "So...." I can't help but interject before they end the pause with, "A needle pulling thread...!" (A nod to the do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti song from The Sound Of Music).

I wholeheartedly agree with the pled and pleaded. The word, as I knew it growing up, was "Pled." Pleaded sounds like someone who does not know the past tense of the verb plea (As opposed to the noun).

The other one that I hear often that makes me cringe is "Often." I was taught and raised to pronounce the word with a silent "T." When I hear the "T" pronounced, I immediately judge the utterer ignorant. To me it is the same thing when people actually pronounce the last letter in the proper noun, "Illinois."

I do not know if it is generational or regional, the pronunciation difference between "Rout" and "Root" for the word "Route." Paper route, Route 66, et cetera. I was taught the "Rout" pronunciation.

You know who says the phrase, "My pleasure." ad nauseum? Every employee of Chick-fil-A.

I'd assign pronunciation to regional dialect, not so much language changing, like the use of my bad or no problem as a cliche response to just about any request in the service industry. My impression is that go with, leaving off the you is regional, first heard in Minnesota, where I also first heard pop versus soda or soda pop. I use root and route interchangeably.

For me it would be those who pronounce issue as "i-shoe" rather than "iss-u"; also, "sked-u-le" rather "shed-u-le".

Some very interesting differences between U.S. And U.K. pronunciation like when I don my faux English accent I'll always throw in the word schedule and jaquar.

This video is fun. I agree with the comment that we (the UK and US) watch so much of each other's media, there is a lot of cross pollination with minimal issues understanding each other.

British English Vs. American English Pronunciation

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I'd assign pronunciation to regional dialect, not so much language changing, like the use of my bad or no problem as a cliche response to just about any request in the service industry. My impression is that go with, leaving off the you is regional, first heard in Minnesota, where I also first heard pop versus soda or soda pop.



Some very interesting differences between U.S. And U.K. pronunciation like when I don my faux English accent I'll always throw in the word schedule and jaquar.

This video is fun. I agree with the comment that we (the UK and US) watch so much of each other's media, there is a lot of cross pollination with minimal issues understanding each other.

British English Vs. American English Pronunciation

But sometimes a regional dialect (especially if it is the regional dialect of the area around the capital) will tend to be given prominence in the spelling of the language - above all, once the language has been committed to writing - and thus, that pronunciation becomes the 'default' standard against which all others are measured.

 

[colourfastt]

I'd assign pronunciation to regional dialect, not so much language changing, like the use of my bad or no problem as a cliche response to just about any request in the service industry. My impression is that go with, leaving off the you is regional, first heard in Minnesota, where I also first heard pop versus soda or soda pop.



Some very interesting differences between U.S. And U.K. pronunciation like when I don my faux English accent I'll always throw in the word schedule and jaquar.

This video is fun. I agree with the comment that we (the UK and US) watch so much of each other's media, there is a lot of cross pollination with minimal issues understanding each other.

British English Vs. American English Pronunciation

A bit of research on "often" turned this up:

Old English had the word oft, meaning “frequently.” It also had the word seldan, which meant “rarely,” and is the source of our word seldom.

It is thought that oft morphed into often by analogy with seldan. Then seldan changed to seldum by analogy with another time word, hwilum, which meant “sometimes” or “once”. Over time, seldum came to be spelled seldom.

The t in often continued to be pronounced until some time in the 15th century when a consonant simplification occurred in some words that had two or more consonants in a row. It was at this time that speakers stopped pronouncing the d in handkerchief and handsome, the p in raspberry, and the t in chestnut and often.

Personally, I often pronounce the "t" in "often", as well as pronouncing the "d", "p", and "t" in the aforementioned words.

 

[Huntn]

But sometimes a regional dialect (especially if it is the regional dialect of the area around the capital) will tend to be given prominence in the spelling of the language - above all, once the language has been committed to writing - and thus, that pronunciation becomes the 'default' standard against which all others are measured.

I agree with how defacto standards can be established. I'm thinking most regions don't care how it's pronounced over there (next State or County ), unless in the US you go into broadcasting where generic neutral accents seem to be required. I've not heard any significant region twang coming from a national news organization. Would you say that's the same in the UK?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Inagree with how defacto standards can be established. I'm thinking most regions don't care how it's pronounced over there (next State or County ), unless in the US you go into broadcasting where generic neutral accents seem to be required. I've not heard any significant region twang coming from a national news organization. Would you say that's the same in the UK?

What was known as 'RP - Received Pronunciation' - or, the 'BBC accent' used to be required for a broadcasting career. Regional accents because - for a while - a bit more welcome form the 70s, but, now, a sort of theoretically classless (though, in reality, it is nothing of the sort) accent - a version of what is called 'Estuary English' (i.e. a what is really a kind of generic middle class English spoken in the Thames estuary region - the region that includes London) is what you tend to hear on air these days.

 

[Huntn]

A bit of research on "often" turned this up:

Old English had the word oft, meaning “frequently.” It also had the word seldan, which meant “rarely,” and is the source of our word seldom.

It is thought that oft morphed into often by analogy with seldan. Then seldan changed to seldum by analogy with another time word, hwilum, which meant “sometimes” or “once”. Over time, seldum came to be spelled seldom.

The t in often continued to be pronounced until some time in the 15th century when a consonant simplification occurred in some words that had two or more consonants in a row. It was at this time that speakers stopped pronouncing the d in handkerchief and handsome, the p in raspberry, and the t in chestnut and often.

Personally, I often pronounce the "t" in "often", as well as pronouncing the "d", "p", and "t" in the aforementioned words.

Some of our sayings have very old origins and may be used to date us.

Top Crust- A personal reference, associated with eating contaminated bread, the top crust was best.

Kick the bucket- thought to mean kick the bucket your standing on with a noose around your neck.

Bite the bullet- a combat reference, surgery without anestia, patient told to bite on this bullet.

Some sayings seem to have a complicated history, such as a Dead Ringer.

Eating humble pie- number 18 on this list is very interesting and kind of disgusting.

 

[rdowns]

Actual voice mail I received Friday:

Dude, was calling to dive deeper into the proposal I sent on Wednesday. I'm going to ping your cell too.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Some of our sayings have very old origins and may be used to date us.

Top Crust- A personal reference, associated with eating contaminated bread, the top crust was best.

Kick the bucket- thought to mean kick the bucket your standing on with a noose around your neck.

Bite the bullet- a combat reference, surgery without anestia, patient told to bite on this bullet.

Some sayings seem to have a complicated history, such as a Dead Ringer.

Eating humble pie- number 18 on this list is very interesting and kind of disgusting.

'Kick the bucket', and 'bite the bullet' are used here, too, - these are old expressions, and they mean what you have said they mean. As does 'eating humble pie'.

However, I have never come across 'Top crust'.

Look up the nursery rhyme 'Ring of Roses'; fascinating story.

Anyway, I learnt that as a very small child, and we danced to it - in a circle, as we thought - as very small children - say, four or five years of age - at school.

It is a very old rhyme - I didn't realise just quite how old until years later, at university, when I spent a lot of time reading about such things.