Insiders Detail Steve Jobs' Role in Apple's Mapping Effort, Desire to Replace Google as iOS Search Engine

[KnightWRX]

Actually, it looks like they are coming to the wrong conclusion based on their data.

http://daringfireball.net/2012/10/snappli_maps

Got a better source than Gruber's usual spin on that ?

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This whole MAP issue is blown over by social media and people who want everything NOW!!!

Its not an easy task to map every square inch of the PLANET. It took Google many many years of data collection and street view to verify the accuracy of its data, provided by the providers(Navtech?)...

There is no "overblowing" in expecting Apple to ship a product in 2012 that is up to 2012 standards and competitive with current offerings from competing players.

It doesn't matter how trivial or hard the task is, Apple shouldn't be delivering a solution that is months or years behind the competition.

 

[dgree03]

This whole MAP issue is blown over by social media and people who want everything NOW!!!

Its not an easy task to map every square inch of the PLANET. It took Google many many years of data collection and street view to verify the accuracy of its data, provided by the providers(Navtech?)...

That being said, we are all used to Apple releasing top of the line products, hardware and software and they still are in the tops as of now.

But Apple's vision of integrated hardware and software is not the best idea going forward as software is being delivered as a service rather than being solely developed by one company to run on one particular hardware.

And this MAPS is a fine example of how Apple has no control over the data it receives. Apple supposedly outsources its MAP data from many providers and its MAPS are only as good as the data it receives. As for the app itself and the navigation features are excellent, true to Apple's standards. ( the warnings, icons,textures labels etc etc...) I know, because I used to have a Droid and have used the Google Navigation extensively as well.

So why such a backlash against Apple? Its the data stupid !

I used Apple maps and have no issues where I live. Every direction and location has been precise. That being said, I am missing a lot of POI like ATM's restaurants, post offices etc....

Instead of whining about it, I sat one day and added all those POI's near my place to the map and submitted it to Apple. If you like Apple and love their products I suggest you do the same. Imagine the collective power of millions of Apple users updating the Maps database with all the POI's and location corrections.

Apple did the right thing by ditching Google. Google shortchanged Apple by not providing navigation features, though they both could have played nice with each other, unfortunately it turned out to be other wise.

As for me, I am going to use the Apple Maps and correct the maps if I find it to be wrong. Why? I love their products and their software and would love to see them flourish and come out with new products in the future...

If maps is absolutely necessary for you, I wonder how you ever survived before the dawn of such devices, and you always have a choice of other sources for maps...

The amount of work and resources that goes into developing something like this is not your average and lame "Drink Beer" app in the app store.

Leave it to the media to spin something like this like its the Apocalypse.. Geez..

So then why, seemingly against all odds, did apple replace an app with HIGHLY accurate data.. with an app that is not even close to being as accurate?

It seems that Apple Apologists are missing the point... EVERYONE understands how how it is to map the PLANET... the question is WHY did apple think it was above the effort that Goggle already put in on Maps? Are they going to create their own search engine too? Create their own displays and memory for their iDevices? I mean where does this "keep it in house" stop??

They should of just recognized the level of effort it takes and kept Google Maps and negotiate for vector and turn by turn...

 

[iGrip]

You have some Mac rumors for us? Please tell.

The Mac Pro line is being discontinued. The iMac will not be updated with the regularity it once was. OSX will get fewer updates over time.

Apple doesn't make much money off of the Mac, and they are putting fewer resources into it.

 

[AppleFan1984]

he was right. we needed turn-by-turn.

Actually, Google was willing to offer turn-by-turn, but not for what Apple was willing to pay them for it (which may have been zero for all we know).

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Because Apple is Apple. They are the biggest company in tech right now so everything they did/do wrong will be taken out of proportion.

If they're the biggest company in tech is it really out of proportion?

 

[TheHateMachine]

Some of these posts remind me of MMO launches.

But guys it is in alpha, it will get fixed next phase.

But guys it is in beta, it will get fixed during release.

But guys it just launched, it will get fixed in a few patches.

But guys it hasn't even hit its first expansion, when that launches all problems will be fixed.

The amount of acceptance for a mediocre and half working program is staggering. You guys paid full price to beta test something.

What's funny is people thinking Apple is getting singled out for being "TOP DAWG"... No they get picked out because under their own admission as well as their loyal cult following it is the best at everything and just works. How can you claim to be at the top and so flawless you fart perfume then turn around and shovel this mess of a maps app to your customers.

 

[0098386]

Long-term, it will prove to be the right competitive move. With a 100 million iOS devices and growing, it is not a wise competitive move to continually generate add dollars and traffic to your rival. Much less have a major feature like turn-by-turn denied. Apple had to ween themselves from Google eventually.

They will get the App refined quickly. I don't miss Google's presence at all.

Tear open an Apple device and you're going to find all their rivals.

 

[Winni]

Steve hated Google?! I had no idea!

Steve hated and sued everybody who competed with him. He severely suffered from the delusion that everybody was stealing his ideas while at the same time he said that he himself and his own team "have always been shameless about stealing".

That's the kind of paranoid behavior that usually unfaithful partners show - because they cheat on their spouses, of course, the spouses must be unfaithful, too.

He was a great sales person with demonstrated taste and an eye for design, but he was also just a fellow human being who very often made irrational, erratic choices that on mid to long term could only hurt himself and his company.

 

[Nunyabinez]

Or...

Use the OS X model. Release it as an optional install while retain the known good default around. Users who then get to use it are those "bleeding edge" users that like playing around with things and reporting mistakes. Also, they get a nice working fall back in case things are really broken. This actually encourages adoption by providing a slower transition path.

Then when its ready (for OS X, this was apparently around 10.1.2), make it the default.

You are missing the point. Without being in mass use it will never be ready, especially when people are so quick to over-blow issues. If they had done as you said, only a small number of people would have been using it, allowing Google to continue to improve and widen the disparity. This is a classic "just rip the band aid off" scenario.

Why ? Point fingers, go ahead. Have the courage to voice your insults directly.

I didn't think it was that veiled. And I'm not mad at you, just making a (attempted) humorous soft-jab.

 

[alent1234]

Steve hated and sued everybody who competed with him. He severely suffered from the delusion that everybody was stealing his ideas while at the same time he said that he himself and his own team "have always been shameless about stealing".

That's the kind of paranoid behavior that usually unfaithful partners show - because they cheat on their spouses, of course, the spouses must be unfaithful, too.

He was a great sales person with demonstrated taste and an eye for design, but he was also just a fellow human being who very often made irrational, erratic choices that on mid to long term could only hurt himself and his company.

thank you steve for bringing turn by turn navigation to the iphone

 

[tbrinkma]

And what makes you think that Google is not already working on vector maps. By the time it takes Apple to make their maps even close to the level of accuracy of Google maps, Google could be delivering vector maps. Even if they started the conversion now, they would still beat Apple to the finishing line.

You misunderstood the poster. Google already has vector maps. The public Google Maps API, doesn't support them. Therefore, unless you are Google, if you are using the Google Maps API, you do not have vector maps. Likewise for turn-by-turn, and voice directions.

If you want Google's maps, with turn-by-turn, and voice directions, you have to use a Google-built app. No such app is available for iOS, and based on Google's recent statements, none was planned/forthcoming before the recent Maps changeover.

 

[krravi]

So then why, seemingly against all odds, did apple replace an app with HIGHLY accurate data.. with an app that is not even close to being as accurate?

It seems that Apple Apologists are missing the point... EVERYONE understands how how it is to map the PLANET... the question is WHY did apple think it was above the effort that Goggle already put in on Maps? Are they going to create their own search engine too? Create their own displays and memory for their iDevices? I mean where does this "keep it in house" stop??

They should of just recognized the level of effort it takes and kept Google Maps and negotiate for vector and turn by turn...

I am not an Apple apologist and I don't go ga ga over everything they do. I don't get the least excited when there is rumors or news about "Ohh a new connector.. a new docking pad.. a new speaker .. a new case..". Never.

Why Apple thought it was above the effort that Google already put in place?
Because it was GOOGLE and it was demanding protection money(users data), thats why.

Are they going to create a search engine too?
Believe me, the Google founders graduated out of Stanford and my friend used to host their experimental search engine in of their servers at the university called google.stanford.edu. Anyways, they went to Yahoo to sell their search engine for a million bucks and Yahoo turned it down. I guess Yahoo must have had the same thought as you..."Why do we need a search engine from someone else? We already have it " But, history proved otherwise isn't it?

Regarding your in-house comment... it will never stop as far as Apple is aiming to give the customers a easy to use and reliable software/hardware experience.

And why is that wrong?

 

[tbrinkma]

So you can't choose option 1 because not having turn by turn and vector tiles is a feature disadvantage compared to other OSs, but having maps that direct you to the wrong city isn't a disadvantage? Very objective opinion.

Option 1 prevents you from having features which would put you on par with the competition, and cannot be fixed without building your own back-end.

Building your own back-end might put you at a *temporary* disadvantage on directions and the like, but that can be fixed without losing the ability to have those features.

Therefore, building your own back-end is the better option in the long term. People are already seeing reported mapping problems fixed in Maps. They're not all done yet, but it'll hit basic parity with Google in a fairly short period. (I give it 4-6 months before they're pretty much on-par, though they'll both still have data issues.)

 

[TMay]

Exactly, yeah Apple Maps lacks in some areas, but the Vector Maps is awesome.

Everyone complaining about Apple Maps, look up the area you are in or going to and then disable data/wifi on your phone. Now zoom in and out, Apple Maps works, Google Maps does not and needs to connect to the Internet to download data. I don't have time to waste for basic zooming, and that is why I like Apple Maps. That was my biggest gripe with Google Maps. As time goes on Apple Maps will get better, and suits most my needs now.

I still remember the outrage over lack of Flash on the iPhone. Those were the good old days.

Flash is dead, and Steve played it exactly correct.

No audio turn by turn so Apple dumping Google maps had to happen. Might as well get it over with, let Apple fix it, and move on.

Control your own destiny.

 

[KnightWRX]

You are missing the point. Without being in mass use it will never be ready, especially when people are so quick to over-blow issues. If they had done as you said, only a small number of people would have been using it, allowing Google to continue to improve and widen the disparity. This is a classic "just rip the band aid off" scenario.

I don't agree at all. Plenty of people would've jumped on an optional Maps Beta and would have started reporting issues right away, and would have done so in the right mindset (ie, we're testers, we're part of something!).

You're quite underestimating the willing participants Apple has in the iOS user community (which is 10 times as big as the OS X installed base if market share is to be believed).

Right now, all you have a is a PR nightmare.

I didn't think it was that veiled. And I'm not mad at you, just making a (attempted) humorous soft-jab.

Insults are against forum rules. Keep it objective. Debate the argument, not the poster.

 

[tbrinkma]

Google delivered Vector Maps... in 2010.

But not through the Google Maps API. Unless you're Google, you can't access Google's vector maps (or turn by turn).

It's Gruber. Don't look for objectivity there.

No, we don't get perfect objectivity from Gruber. But it's better than we can reliably get from you. Heck, you aren't even working from the same reality as the rest of us.

Vector maps and turn-by-turn directions are great, even though the maps are of Middle Earth rather than the known real world.

I for one have had no issue navigating from the Shire to Mordor using the new Apple maps. Too bad it wasn't really useful since I had no "One Ring" to dump into the fires of Mount Doom. (oh and they misplaced Sheilob's cave...).

(Then again, if we actually *could* get maps of Middle Earth in the Apple Maps app, that would be pretty cool, if not terribly useful.)

 

[dv8r]

You are missing the point. Without being in mass use it will never be ready, especially when people are so quick to over-blow issues. If they had done as you said, only a small number of people would have been using it, allowing Google to continue to improve and widen the disparity. This is a classic "just rip the band aid off" scenario.

I saw MG Siegler trying this explanation - it's the perfect 20/20 excuse. If Apple already knew that they were ditching Google Maps a couple of years ago, then why not start those efforts then? They could have had a beta program running alongside Siri for more than a year...

Apple has no experience in crowd-sourcing and it seems they still haven't quite got it yet. By dropping this thing on their users they alienated a good deal of the users that care and were the ones likely to provide a massive amount of updates. If you can't trust the product then why bother? Ping has shown that Apple services aren't immune to slow death if the alternatives are better, Apple should at least have made tools for editing and maybe nursed their user-base a little better.

It's not just ripping off a band aid if Maps aren't showing any progress - users will just move on and then where's your user input then? I think you (and MG Siegler) aren't really getting how serious this can turn out to be for Apple.

 

[krravi]

What Apple really needs to do is release a web version of its Maps. That way it gets more people involved and is also easy to correct by the user community.

All these portable devices are fine but the best experience still comes from the grand daddy of all, the computer desktop.

So if Apple is serious about their maps, they should release it on the web as well no matter how glitchy the data is...

 

[ictiosapiens]

It's not just the data.

The real and long term problem Apple maps faces, is not just the lack of data, but the useless search engine behind it.

On google maps, if you miss typed, or if you didn't find results, the system would ask you if you meant something else. This intelligent search engine would show you sushi restaurants if you asked for japanese. Google would intelligently link ideas and similar searches made by others, to offer you what you were probably looking for.

Let's face it, Apple will eventually fix the missing data, and correct the map errors, but the usefulness of their maps will always hampered by the lack of a smart search engine.

 

[krravi]

Intelligence comes from data !

The real and long term problem Apple maps faces, is not just the lack of data, but the useless search engine behind it.

On google maps, if you miss typed, or if you didn't find results, the system would ask you if you meant something else. This intelligent search engine would show you sushi restaurants if you asked for japanese. Google would intelligently link ideas and similar searches made by others, to offer you what you were probably looking for.

Let's face it, Apple will eventually fix the missing data, and correct the map errors, but the usefulness of their maps will always hampered by the lack of a smart search engine.

Computer intelligence comes from data! No data, no intelligence!

 

[tbrinkma]

Got a better source than Gruber's usual spin on that ?

Got anything better than attacking the messenger?

If you can't argue against the message, attacking the messenger doesn't make you right. It just shows you don't have a point.

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So then why, seemingly against all odds, did apple replace an app with HIGHLY accurate data.. with an app that is not even close to being as accurate?

It seems that Apple Apologists are missing the point... EVERYONE understands how how it is to map the PLANET... the question is WHY did apple think it was above the effort that Goggle already put in on Maps? Are they going to create their own search engine too? Create their own displays and memory for their iDevices? I mean where does this "keep it in house" stop??

They should of just recognized the level of effort it takes and kept Google Maps and negotiate for vector and turn by turn...

It's been explained, time and again, in this thread and prior threads. If you haven't been willing to read it before, people are going to stop repeating themselves.

Before the new Maps app, with it's new back end, all the iOS Maps complaints were about how far behind it was compared to Google's Android app. The public Google Map API doesn't provide those features, and the API license disallows integrating them from other sources. There's no evidence that Google was willing to make an exception for Apple (and ample evidence that it wasn't if you simply look at the feature differential between the old iOS Maps app and Google's Android app).

If the choice is:
1) never get those features
2) get the features, but go through some growing pains while you get the back-end data sorted out

Why on earth would you expect Apple to choose option 1?

 

[dv8r]

Got anything better than attacking the messenger?

If you can't argue against the message, attacking the messenger doesn't make you right. It just shows you don't have a point.

In this case I agree - Gruber is in NO way an objective source for anything Apple related, he's is "Apples favorite blogger".

This hit after the first round of denials:
http://gigaom.com/mobile/data-showing-most-people-dumping-ios-maps-seems-legit/

I don't know Snappli so I don't know if they are trustworthy, but I do know Gruber wouldn't criticize Apple even if his life depended upon it, so it's a bit fair to ask for another source.

 

[ictiosapiens]

Computer intelligence comes from data! No data, no intelligence!

Not really, it's the algorithms and database foundations that link the data. Apple can have ALL the points of interest on earth, but if the data is not labeled and their search engine algorithms are not adequate, you'll only ever get results when you search for specific terms, and that's all you'll get.

An example of apple's lack of expertise in this field is the search engine if the app store.

 

[Nunyabinez]

Insults are against forum rules. Keep it objective. Debate the argument, not the poster.

OK... if that was an insult, then I guess I'm pretty thick skinned. But if that's the way you want to play this then let's go after your arguments.

I don't agree at all. Plenty of people would've jumped on an optional Maps Beta and would have started reporting issues right away, and would have done so in the right mindset (ie, we're testers, we're part of something!).

You're quite underestimating the willing participants Apple has in the iOS user community (which is 10 times as big as the OS X installed base if market share is to be believed).

Right now, all you have a is a PR nightmare.

First, obviously the people running Apple are not idiots. They had to know there would be a backlash. Maybe they underestimated it, or overestimated the quality of the Map app, but this couldn't have been a surprise.

Put yourself in Apple's shoes. Let's assume the worst and say they knew that the Map app was bad (not been my experience) and that people would complain and there would be a media nightmare as you put it. What is going to happen? How many iPhones are not going to be bought because of this? How much will Apple's reputation actually be hurt? The answer is they still can't make enough phones to meet demand, and despite antenna-gate, scuff-gate or whatever, Apple eventually comes out just fine.

If I am an executive at Apple, I have to think about where I am strategically. Previously, a major competitor has me over a barrel. I am relying on them for something that has become core functionality of my product. And they won't allow me to have features that are at parity with other smart phones without unacceptable concessions.

What should I do? Worry about a few tech bloggers and posters who won't be happy? Or set myself up for the future without Google having fingers in my pie?

I know that you think there was some gradual way this could have happened, but the reality is that Apple needed to screw Google (no warning) and quickly get this product out and get people making it better. This media nightmare will disappear and Apple will be fine, even if a few people decide to stop buying their products.

Don't you wonder why Google doesn't have a replacement yet for the iPhone? It is because Apple didn't want them to have it and pulled the rug when they weren't expecting it. They don't want iPhone users helping Google improve their maps.

When the demand is a inelastic as it is for the iPhone, you can make hard decisions, even when they don't please the consumer, because the consumer is going to still buy. Maybe you don't like what they did, but I believe that time will show that this was a brilliant strategic move and people will praise Apple for having the courage to take such a bold risk. But I guess we'll have to stay tuned to find that out.

 

[AppleFan1984]

Why Apple thought it was above the effort that Google already put in place?
Because it was GOOGLE and it was demanding protection money(users data), thats why.

You have surprisingly good sources. Having only read a few dozen articles on this, I wasn't able to turn up any which disclosed the terms Google was asking for turn-by-turn navigation.

URL?

 

[krravi]

Not really, it's the algorithms and database foundations that link the data. Apple can have ALL the points of interest on earth, but if the data is not labeled and their search engine algorithms are not adequate, you'll only ever get results when you search for specific terms, and that's all you'll get.

An example of apple's lack of expertise in this field is the search engine if the app store.

No,really. All the algorithms in the world is useless if it doesn't have data to operate on.

That's why Tim Cook said I believe that "Keep using it, it will get better"...

Google maps is like a finely aged wine.. all these years of searches by users have their algorithm's spinning and figuring out patterns on what users are looking for..

If you don't use it, you will lose it... Choice is yours.