Will we finally get an updated 4K (or rather 5K) Apple Thunderbolt display thanks to Thunderbolt 3?
The current one is so outdated it's not even funny...
The current one is so outdated it's not even funny...
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Intel Announces Thunderbolt 3 With USB-C, Single-Cable Support for Dual 4K Displays at 60Hz
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
For everyone hoping to power from any port on a future redesign of the MBP line, I imagine that Apple would elect to only have this on one or two ports - the reason being the complications with having to have circuitry/a controller for each port in that case? I mean, I am sure they will be looking to take cues from the new rMB amd shrink the motherboard down to its absolute minimum, right?
Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in?
Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in?
So the next redesign for rMBP could possibly see both USBs replaced with USB-C, and the power and thunderbolt ports replaced with thunderbolt? 5 ports identical in function but not in limitation?
Seems to me that's like saying a 17th century knight would beat a 21st century soldier unless the soldier had a gun. Of course Batman would have Kryptonite - he'd probably have his scientists come up with a way of synthesising it and incorporating it into his weapons and armour.
Only have charging in one or two ports? Sounds like it will be in all of them then!
Wonderful. Now we're going to have USB 3.1 and Thunderbolt USB-C ports that look identical (save for the lightning bolt icon) but differ in functionality.
If they're going to use it with things other than USB then they should probably stop calling it USB-C, because evidently that seems to confuse people.
If they're going to use it with things other than USB then they should probably stop calling it USB-C, because evidently that seems to confuse people.
Yeah, people seem to be missing the point, all the ports will be able to carry power and you can hook up a USB, DisplayPort, or TB device to any of them. There may be some limitations to what combinations of devices you can chain though.
Surprised to see that Intel refers this port name as USB-C instead of what USB-IF called the connector, Type-C. To clearly identify, Intel includes a Thunderbolt logo. Previous comments note well that there may be confusion.
Intel is basically announcing that if you see a Type-C connector with a Thunderbolt logo, you will get a port that supports USB 3.1, Thunderbolt, Display Port 1.2, and 15 watts of power for devices.
No guarantee or power delivery (PD) of 100 watts. No guarantee of charging.
Apple calling their unlabeled connector USB-C is a subset of these capabilities. And the labeled "USB-C" connector on the AV Adapter indicates charging capability only, and nowhere near 100 watts.
I expect future OS X, Windows, and Linux enhancements which provide useful information about the connector's capabilities to help user understand why a connected device works or doesn't work.
Intel also promises a bidirectional Thunderbolt 1/2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter to permit legacy devices to connect to new computers with Thunderbolt 3 ports, and to permit new Thunderbolt 3 devices to connect to legacy devices and computers.
Intel and the other computer device manufacturers have a big job ahead to get this all right. And hopefully they get it right the first time, without the agony of the USB 3.0 rollout which took years to get right.
Finally, note well: the common denominator between oldest legacy devices and the new Thunderbolt is USB 2.0 performance, so we know that existing iPhones, iPads, Ipods and other legacy devices should be fine with the right adapter cable and/or adapter.
Intel is basically announcing that if you see a Type-C connector with a Thunderbolt logo, you will get a port that supports USB 3.1, Thunderbolt, Display Port 1.2, and 15 watts of power for devices.
No guarantee or power delivery (PD) of 100 watts. No guarantee of charging.
Apple calling their unlabeled connector USB-C is a subset of these capabilities. And the labeled "USB-C" connector on the AV Adapter indicates charging capability only, and nowhere near 100 watts.
I expect future OS X, Windows, and Linux enhancements which provide useful information about the connector's capabilities to help user understand why a connected device works or doesn't work.
Intel also promises a bidirectional Thunderbolt 1/2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter to permit legacy devices to connect to new computers with Thunderbolt 3 ports, and to permit new Thunderbolt 3 devices to connect to legacy devices and computers.
Intel and the other computer device manufacturers have a big job ahead to get this all right. And hopefully they get it right the first time, without the agony of the USB 3.0 rollout which took years to get right.
Finally, note well: the common denominator between oldest legacy devices and the new Thunderbolt is USB 2.0 performance, so we know that existing iPhones, iPads, Ipods and other legacy devices should be fine with the right adapter cable and/or adapter.
Last edited:
HDMI 2.0 only offers lower latency and we really shouldn't be using HDMI ports on desktop/laptop equipment EXCEPT for hooking them up to Television screens. For everything else we should be using Displayport/USB to hook up monitors, and the monitors themselves should have the port-expansion (Eg mice, keyboards, joysticks)
It actually would make far more sense to just ditch HDMI 2.0, except that won't happen since it would mean people would have to throw away their existing investments in HDMI 1.3/1.4 equipment. THAT is the only reason the ports will persist for some time.
The issue with USB, is, and has always been latency. Try playing any "emulated" NES/SNES game on the Wii/Wii U virtual console (which uses Bluetooth or WiFi for input) where even 2ms of latency results in a much more difficult playing experience when the controllers were little more than a clock at 16.7ms (60hz) to poll the state of each button. When you multiply the latency issues (eg displaying to the monitor, stacks of API or visualization cruft in the OS) you are often lucky if you aren't playing more than 10 frames out of sync.
The icing on the cake is that certain hardware (eg Mac and iOS devices) are far better at running hardware and software with low-latency, so they are much preferred for audio and video work. Hence, Firewire and Thunderbolt serve their needed purposes, while on Windows (and Android) the cheapness of the parts and the overall crappyness of the software drivers or operating system often makes them a terrible choice.
So we will likely only see USB-C on devices that are latency-tolerant, and continue to see HDMI ports on devices that are latency intolerant, like game devices, with USB-C relegated to storage-only on such equipment.
Keep in mind that there are plenty of devices that have USB 2.0 ports (eg SmartTV's and Cable/Fiber TV STB's that you can't really use for anything but storage)
I should still have student discount when 7,1 comes out, so I should hopefully not lose much on my current d700 1tb and 64 ram on 8 core and some apple care left and be able to pick up the new one with some money off
then I will spend money on screens my bank will hate me - but I get new screens so yay I still have a 23 and 30" screenStill around. From Anantech's coverage.
http://anandtech.com/show/9331/intel-announces-thunderbolt-3
The problem with optical has far more so been that Intel (and partners ) can't deliver on the affordable fiber aspect. Not so much the "fiber". Expensive fiber exists for Infiniband and Ethernet which probably could be used on Thunderbolt, but if the cable costs more than the devices few folks will want to buy.
The problem is that this is in the "under development" stage. It is like fiber is an after thought ( or is being suppressed by Apple who is more so in assigning MagSafe duties to TB than top end speed and distance.) TB v3 gets a cheaper copper cable at 20Gb/s max. What about a far more affordable fiber cable at 20Gb/s (and keep the 80-90m distance) ? At some point distance is a place and fiber is going to be far more viable if it is reasonably affordable. If it stays far more expensive it won't reach critical mass.
Plot-twist: Apple's 5k Thunderbolt 3 Retina Display will run entirely over PCIe with dedicated 5k GPUs installed per unit reducing DisplayPort bandwidth allocation enabling for up to two to be daisy-chained while allowing for FaceTime HD webcams, stereo speakers, and backside hubs of USB 3.1 and Ethernet to remain active.
At first, I was typing gibberish, but this could be Apple's implementation of 5k. Think about it! Dell's 5k Monitor is $2,299, but Apple's cheapest 5k iMac is $1,999. Remove the processor, memory, and storage, use a slightly lower cost assembly process given the absence of certain high cost components, and the display could retail for $1,499, just $500 more than the original Thunderbolt Display.
At first, I was typing gibberish, but this could be Apple's implementation of 5k. Think about it! Dell's 5k Monitor is $2,299, but Apple's cheapest 5k iMac is $1,999. Remove the processor, memory, and storage, use a slightly lower cost assembly process given the absence of certain high cost components, and the display could retail for $1,499, just $500 more than the original Thunderbolt Display.
Last edited:
This is really no change. The legacy DP cables were passive with TB v1 & 2 also. The TB cables were active.
The port and the cable are different things. TB v3 will run with a passive cable but limit speeds to 20Gb/s. So two "normal" Type C cables will do USB 3.1, DP 1.2 , or TB v3. All within the same top end that Type C was designed for: 20Gb/s. Which mode depends upon what is connected at both sides ( the ports are physically alike but what is interior to the ports on both sides drives whether it works or not). Still going to need to pair TB controllers on both sides to get TB (no change). If DP 1.2 is on both sides then get legacy pass through mode. if neither of those on both sides then get USB. ( some funky corner cases in bandwidth reduced mode but I doubt those become the major mainstream devices. )
If want full unfettered TB then will need an active cable. So one TB v3 active cable.. One a system with a second port can plug a Type C to DP 1.2 adapter cable into the other port and probably get DP v1.2 out. [ The TB v3 controller takes two DP v1.2 sources are input so one is just redirected in legacy pass thru mode there. ]. You just wouldn't be to get two full DP v1.2 sources from the TB side downstream..... since one never got on the TB network.
Maybe , maybe not. In the pure DP pass thru mode, the Type C connector could do DP 1.3 now (not really any GPUs that can output DP 1.3 now). So direct connect there really isn't a problem.
It may take another speed bump to move to DP v1.3. Now that TB is saddled with stuffing a USB controller inside that increasing complexity may push DP standards tracking back on the priority list. Having two DP 1.2 sources is also easier to put into dual pass thru mode.
Still around. From Anantech's coverage.
http://anandtech.com/show/9331/intel-announces-thunderbolt-3
The problem with optical has far more so been that Intel (and partners ) can't deliver on the affordable fiber aspect. Not so much the "fiber". Expensive fiber exists for Infiniband and Ethernet which probably could be used on Thunderbolt, but if the cable costs more than the devices few folks will want to buy.
The problem is that this is in the "under development" stage. It is like fiber is an after thought ( or is being suppressed by Apple who is more so in assigning MagSafe duties to TB than top end speed and distance.) TB v3 gets a cheaper copper cable at 20Gb/s max. What about a far more affordable fiber cable at 20Gb/s (and keep the 80-90m distance) ? At some point distance is a place and fiber is going to be far more viable if it is reasonably affordable. If it stays far more expensive it won't reach critical mass.
Hmm and if I recalled correctly, the problem with fibre is it doesn't transmit power, so it'll only be used for those who needs long TB cables to devices that can have its own power source and that amount of people I guess is few.
Personally, I hope this does away with all different style computer peripheral ports. I'd like to see one or two Thunderbolt plus one to three USB 3.1 type-C ports on every computer - and that's it for "primary peripheral" connections.
Maybe "home theater" oriented could add native HDMI, and "business" oriented could add Ethernet. Every computer could have headphone+microphone. But for the vast majority of computers, an array of Thunderbolt and USB type-C should be it.
MacBook should have a Thunderbolt on one side, and a USB 3.1 type-C on the other.
MacBook Air likewise (maybe throw in a second USB 3.1.)
MacBook Pro should have two Thunderbolt (preferably one on each side) plus three USB 3.1 type-C. You can throw an HDMI on there, too, for those that like such things.
iMac and Mac Mini should have two Thunderbolt and three or even four USB 3.1 type-C. An HDMI on the Mac Mini would be fine.
Mac Pro should have, like now, six Thunderbolt, plus four USB 3.1 type-C and one or two 10Gb Ethernet. (Plus an HDMI would be fine.)
Maybe "home theater" oriented could add native HDMI, and "business" oriented could add Ethernet. Every computer could have headphone+microphone. But for the vast majority of computers, an array of Thunderbolt and USB type-C should be it.
MacBook should have a Thunderbolt on one side, and a USB 3.1 type-C on the other.
MacBook Air likewise (maybe throw in a second USB 3.1.)
MacBook Pro should have two Thunderbolt (preferably one on each side) plus three USB 3.1 type-C. You can throw an HDMI on there, too, for those that like such things.
iMac and Mac Mini should have two Thunderbolt and three or even four USB 3.1 type-C. An HDMI on the Mac Mini would be fine.
Mac Pro should have, like now, six Thunderbolt, plus four USB 3.1 type-C and one or two 10Gb Ethernet. (Plus an HDMI would be fine.)
I like the new specs too and might upgrade then, but that's old news - I already have two Dell 4k displays capable of 60Hz on my desk and connected to my late 2013 15" rMBP...
Ok, now THAT is something!
Yes! =)
Prices should come down
I imagine lightning will turn into usb-c, maybe on the iPhone 7
yea maybe even closer to mid-late 2016
Probably not this fall, but next fall with the iPhone 7 could be.
yes there is plenty of bandwidth, there is even enough bandwidth for pci-e 4.0 with 16 lanes to be ran through. However, the issues is properly powering the external GPUs. There are no offical supported products that do this. And even the unofficial ones cost $1,000+ not including the GPU.
Yep! Thank You for explaining this. Everyone listen to this guy.
Don't know why so many people think skylake laptops are right around the corner.
If they did that, then people with MacBook and Macbook airs can easily buy these displays or 2 of them and attach them. Without having to worry about the ultra-thin laptops lacking the GPU power to push them
That'd be really convenient, build the cost of the GPUs necessary to power its designated display into said display. That'd help future-proof laptops while helping cut costs. But I do realize that the second point is a little redundant given the fact that people can buy laptops with cheaper and slightly weaker GPUs so they don't get what they don't want. But in all honesty, I sort of hope that's what Apple has planned.
Last edited:
This is awesome news! Now instead of 2 TB and 2 USB ports, we can hopefully have 4 ports to use how we wish. OR i'm sure apple will just make a usb c docking station eventually.
I'm very happy that its one connection now that does data, power, video.
I'm very happy that its one connection now that does data, power, video.
The dream is happening! I'm sure this will turn up in the redesigned Macbook Pros with Skylake. I wonder if they will keep the SD card slot, since I'm sure they're ditching the HDMI port. It would be sexy to have only 1 type of port on the computer (except a headphone jack I guess).
TB3 uses the USB Type C connector. The USB Type C connector supports "alternate modes", one of which is DP 1.3. So, a future Mac that has a USB Type C connector and the right GPU could do DP 1.3 and drive a 5K or 8K DisplayPort display.