Intel Developing Next PowerMac for Apple?

[EricNau]

But, if the guts of the computer are exactly the same as the Dell, HP, Lenovo and Gateway - what is there to innovate other than new color plastics for the box, or perhaps stunning the industry with an anodized aluminum box?

Of course, "fashion" in a PC merely means that it will be "unfashionable" next season - even before its performance it no longer acceptable. (Wouldn't you be embarrassed to have a flower power iMac today?)

It looks like Macs will be commodity PCs, with maybe a prettier case to match the prettier price tag.

Just because Apple is no longer making the insides directly, it doesn't mean they don't have any say in what it looks like.
This doesn't mean that when you open up an intel Powermac that it is going to look like a PC (tons of wires, etc.). It just means it was made by another company with a bigger factory for a cheaper price.

 

[millarj]

Umm yes they are. Why do you think there are companies like Alienware, Voodoo PC, Falcon Northwest, etc. All of these companies make high end PC's and all are targets for Apple's x86 hardware. If you think that Windows XP and Vista aren't going to be dual booted within days you would be, will be wrong. I've had more people who are geeks who are seriously interested in an Apple laptop. Not because of OS X but because of the design. Trust me when I say these people will wipe OS X off the system within a half an hour. They simply are not interested in the OS right now. What? You think the iPod's hardware is superior to everything else? Its not. Its the design of the thing is what sells the iPod and what will sell i/PowerBooks to Windows users.

So. let me get this straight... Your "Geek" friends want to buy an Apple laptop, wipe the OS and put Windows on it? Sorry, I just can't say "Geek" and "Windows" in the same sentence, at least not with a straight face...

 

[Mr. MacPhisto]

For one, I seriously doubt that geeks will pay for the Mac just to load Windows. While Apple will not take measure to prevent people from installing Windows, there's no telling how reliable Windows would be on the machine or if drivers will be out there to run some of the stuff on the machine. Apple doesn't use Soundblaster, etc and I don't think there's a Mac audio driver available in Windows. While you might find something that works, you might not. I'm sure someone will eventually solve these problems, but not out of the gate. While Apple's design is killer, OS X is the real prize here. People who have been on the edge may now jump over wholesale if they can dual-boot on a Mac.

Second, I see no reason to be concerned about Intel developing the new PM. They likely have heavy Apple oversight and will make custom MoBos for Apple that probably will be proprietary. My guess is that Intel has a confidentiality agreement concerning Mac parts as part of Apple moving over to Intel. In short, these Intel board will be for Apple only and not available elsewhere. They will be heavily monitored and Intel will not publish the specs. I'm not concerned.

I'm also not all that concerned about OS X being hacked onto normal PCs. Some will do it, but it won't be easy and likely won't be as stable - many things might not even run.

This move was well thought out and planned, outside of Intel running ahead of schedule - something Apple hasn't seen in a long time. Intel will work to protect Apple, especially because I think they see Apple as their most crucial partner right now.

 

[jaw04005]

The hardware to me is just as important as the software. If Apple ships the same Intel motherboard just in a fancy chassis that say Dell or Gateway also ships for 35% higher, I'm not going to buy it. That just doesn't make good consumer sense. The O/S is large part of why I use a Mac, however Mac OS X is not worth the premium price alone. It's the combination of OS X and Apple's specialized hardware that makes me a Mac user.

 

[RBR2]

The hardware to me is just as important as the software. If Apple ships the same Intel motherboard just in a fancy chassis that say Dell or Gateway also ships for 35% higher, I'm not going to buy it. That just doesn't make good consumer sense. The O/S is large part of why I use a Mac, however Mac OS X is not worth the premium price alone. It's the combination of OS X and Apple's specialized hardware that makes me a Mac user.

What's so special about Apple's hardware?

Besides, hardware, anyone's hardware, is just there to run the software.

As far as it being the same as Dell's MB goes, I rather doubt that the MB that Apple ships will have much in common with what the current crop of MBs are like. One of the things that Intel is excited about is getting a clean start on a MB and related hardware that is not tied to a bunch of legacy restrictions.

On the other hand, who would really care if the end result is a Mac that runs better?

 

[Bonte]

Yeah, Apple's starting to bother me more and more because of the huge focus on design. Don't get me wrong: I think it is wonderful that Apple computers are beautiful. But after a while, if Apple becomes more and more about sales and design and loses touch with having cutting edge technology that they design themselves.

Designing cutting edge technology isn't cutting it anymore, the PC world takes 5 years to make the switch or just moves on to the next level in tech making Apple's technique obsolete and expensive. Technologically speaking Apple needs to be on pair with the PC world, not behind but also not to far upfront. The difference needs to be in the design, the user experience and the price just as the iPod is now.

 

[FFTT]

I can't see anyone wiping OS X from their machine in order to run Windows alone.

What I do see is a near future trend to dual and tripple boot systems
that will run ANY OS natively.

This triple threat ability will turn a lot of heads and bank accounts in Apple's
direction.

 

[wnurse]

Sorry, we were talking about the best mobos on earth, not the most rock-solid. I could think of several other mobo companies that could be in the running for "best mobo on earth" but none of them are intel.

Randall, what are examples of several mobo companies who are the "best mobo on earth?". I read through the entire discussion and never saw a post where you mentioned them?. Also i presume you meant these companies motherboards were more advanced than intel cause to me, rock solid is a component of any "best" category. Example, BMW are one of the best cars cause they are rock solid (you know, the fenders don't fall off, etc).. there are sure to be other stuff that makes BMW best in their class.. but i think rock-solid is one criteria.. So going with assumption that you were referencing technology , who are these mobo companies?.. just wanna check them out.

 

[Don.Key]

Randall, what are examples of several mobo companies who are the "best mobo on earth?".

For professional (Workstation / Server) usage: Nothing beats TYAN

 

[heisetax]

FW Ports

Not sure which PCs you've been looking at lately, but of the ones I've seen within the past year or so in retail stores, almost all (if not all) of them have Firewire ports already.

Have you seen any FW800 ports?

I did a little repair work on a brand new HP unit that cost about $500 that had FW400 ports front & rear.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[Henri Gaudier]

What am I?

It's got an Intel processor.
It's motherboard is designed by Intel.
It's made in China.
What is it?
It's an Apple designed in California! Ha.

It's a snazzy cased PC with OSX. If you half the price then that's okay. Apple is changed forever but what can you do? But, if prices stay the same or are reduced only a fraction then..... it's a right royal let down/rip.

 

[eXan]

According to the rumor site, Apple has its current resources so far across the planned Intel iMacs, PowerBooks, iBooks and Mac minis and that outsourcing the PowerMac motherboard design may help them keep a targeted ship date of the 3rd quarter of 2006 for the next-generation PowerMac.

The design is expected to take place within the Intel Apple-Group which was quietly formed in November.

Outsourcing PowerMac motherboard design to Intel may have some interesting consequences regarding control and exclusivity of the design. As well, it exposes the PowerMac designs outside of Apple, which could be a source of future leaks.

I dont think tis is a good idea... PC manufacturer to design Mac internals??

 

[Machead III]

iMacs as well in the first 4 months? Interesting, particularly for a close friend of mine who wants to get a new iMac in Feb.

I lso wants an Intel iMac as soon as possible. The thought of being able to boot into Windows for games and into OS X for everything else is just... geeky euphoria.

 

[heisetax]

FW - Apple USB - Intel

HUH?

I believe Apple invented Firewire and USB..

Firewire started with Apple & USB started with Intel.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[Evangelion]

I just hope that silent/quiet computing remains a goal through all of this

What does the noise of the computer have to do with the design of the motherboard? True crappy MoBo-design can make cooling more difficultt, but I think Intel know what they are doing.

I'm sure Apple will have at least some say in the shape/design of the motherboard

Huh? Apple wanted a circular motherboard, but Intel insists on rectangular Mobo?

Some of those beefy PC boxes are just too dang noisy...

Yeah, and that's due to the fact that their MoBo's were designed by Intel.... Or maybe not.

I find the comments on this story to be really weird. You people are getting your panties in a bunch because Intel design the MoBo on the PowerBook... Uhhhh, so? The system won't magically become noisier. The system wont magically look like Dell. It wont use BIOS.

Or is this a case of "not being so different anymore"? Well, that shouldn't be an issue. Apple doesn't make the PowerBook as it is today. It's made by the very same subcontractors that make PC-laptops as well.

Or is this about quality? Yeah, it's not like PowerBooks have never suffered from logic-board failuers or anything of the sort. No sirree!

Seriously: you guys need to take a chill-pill. So what if Intel designs the Mobo? I heard that Apple isn't designing the hard-drives, vid-cards, RAM-chips or the screen either. Oh the humanity!

 

[mdavey]

The problems with Windows PC's isn't with the hardware, it's with Windows.

Not true, at least for me. The average PC is:

* Hot
* Noisy
* Power-hungry
* Big

Taking them in order, okay the G5s are hot, too. I have three network appliances, one with a G3 and two with Arm processors. None of them have a heatsink and only one of them has a fan (which is very quiet). It is possible to make computers that run cool (see the recent offerings from IBM, Sun and some of the niche players) - I'd like to see Apple and Intel move further in this direction.

Noisy. Apple has traditionally been very successful in this area. Lets hope they can be again.

Power-hungry. Apple has been very successful in this area. Most PCs have a 350W or 400W PSU. One of my network appliances has a 25W PSU, my Mac mini has a 70W PSU. Of course, one has to measure the actual consumption for a true comparisson. I hope the next-gen PowerMac has a lower power consumption than offerings from Dell.

Big. Okay, big has its place sometimes but the PC manufacturers seem to just chuck parts into mini towers because that is what they have always done. I am surprised that there hasn't been an explosion in small form-factor computers so far.

 

[Evangelion]

I dont think tis is a good idea... PC manufacturer to design Mac internals??

Intel is a PC manufacturer? And I thought that Intel made CPU's, MoBo's and chipsets, whereas companies like Dell and HP were the PC manufacturers....

 

[Evangelion]

I can't see anyone wiping OS X from their machine in order to run Windows alone.

Why not? There are people out there who are interested in Apple-hardware, ut are not that interested in OS X.

 

[Evangelion]

So. let me get this straight... Your "Geek" friends want to buy an Apple laptop, wipe the OS and put Windows on it? Sorry, I just can't say "Geek" and "Windows" in the same sentence, at least not with a straight face...

You want some wine with that elitism?

 

[gnasher729]

I wonder if a dual-core/32bit Yonah, with its 667MHz bus, "might" be slightly faster than the single-core/64bit G5 in the present iMac (2.1GHz on 700MHz bus). It would be interesting to see if Apple would put it in the iMac at MWSF - your average iMac buyer doesn't know the difference between bits, and most of the software they will use doesn't give a rip, either... If Apple thinks that 32-vs-64bit distinction will matter, than the iMac will wait for Merom around September.

I would think that the slowest dual-core Yonah at 1.6 GHz should beat a 2.1 GHz G5 in many tasks when running native code, and it should equal it on many tasks when running code using Rosetta.

The only exception is code that got a large speed boost from using Altivec code; that kind of code will run much slower under Rosetta, a bit slower if it is ported to native Intel without vector optimisation, and Intel's SSE is not as good as Altivec, so Intel code with vector optimisation will only draw even on a dual-core Intel processor that should be more powerful than a single G5.

 

[gnasher729]

Why not? There are people out there who are interested in Apple-hardware, ut are not that interested in OS X.

Compare a Macintosh to a Dull box. A Macintosh is something that you can put into a living room in a nice home without being ashamed; a Dell is just one huge pile of ugly black plastic.

If your only two choices were to run Windows XP on a huge pile of ugly black plastic, or to run Windows XP on an iMac or a Mac Mini, which one would you choose?

 

[Kris Kelvin]

For one, I seriously doubt that geeks will pay for the Mac just to load Windows.

Indeed so, because using windows contradicts with beeing a geek!
But I really think there's a VERY good market for some solid (and nice looking) hardware that runs windows. For example there are still lots of situations where you need some specialized software that only runs on Windows. Yes, there's a Maya version for Mac, but it's still a joke compared to the windows version. XSI doesn't even have a Mac version. Yes, at some point Darwine might work good enough to not require Windows anymore for that stuff, but a native version - specifically built for one OS - is just better most of the time.
Don't get me wrong. I hate Windows; I really do. But there's still some good things over there, be it software, games or even a very modern development framework.

Also, we've got a customer that we're trying to convince to switch to Macs for quite a while. But he just can't afford to replace all the machines at once. Intel-based Macs would be exactly what's needed to do that transition.

I believe that Apple still thinks they're getting the most when selling hardware (and they're probably right). So switching to the platform almost everybody uses is the best thing they can do. The possibility to keep Microsoft from crushing them by having an OS that would run on basically every PC out there is just a nice side effect.

As for the performance, I really don't think it will be any kind of a problem. Except that some people will be peeved seeing that some apps perform better on the same box running Linux... But hey, we can still do what we all did in the last few years: Close our eyes and pretend the G4 still beats them all.

For professional (Workstation / Server) usage: Nothing beats TYAN

Yeah, about that...we're using a dual Opteron here as Workstation. All the nice stuff, from Hypertransport busses to PCI-X slots to onboard Raid Controllers and registered ECC Memory, powered by a Chipset built by AMD. Nothing but problems, I tell you. And we're not the only ones, according to several forums.
Yes, Tyan is usually known to make good boards, but that PC DID get a beating from almost every other box in our studio (and the mainboard was to blame).

So let's move on to all the ASUS fans, shall we. Did you ever take a look at the chipsets those boards use? Lots of ASUS' boards (especially the more expensive ones) are built with Intel chips, maybe even based on Intel reference designs. That's what makes Intel strong. They're not just developing CPUs, they're creating complete systems and reference designs. Did you know that the (great) BladeCenter that IBM is selling was a co-production between IBM and Intel?

Summary: Intel can make really great hardware, and they have lots of resources. IMHO it's the best thing that could happen to Apple, because now our favourite company can concentrate on what they're doing best.

 

[gnasher729]

The x86 architecture is loaded down with legacy instructions and code "bolted" on top of one another. How hard would it be for Intel to strip away those ugly bits and leave a multi-core (2,4,8...) cpu that is optimized for MacOS X (no Classic support either, thank god)...

It would be very expensive for Intel to do that. No problem if they could switch _all_ x86 processors to a more sane instruction set, but they can't do that. So they would have to have two different versions of the chip. The cost to have two different versions is much higher than any savings that could be had in a sanitised version. And the work would have to be repeated each time a new chip is developed, and that chip would always be 3 to 6 months behind.

Legacy instructions don't actually take very much space in the chip. Most space is L2 cache, L1 cache, execution units, all the logic and resources for out-of-order execution, branch prediction, and so on and so on. All things that you would have to keep; you need them on _any_ chip to make it run fast. You would only save a little bit in the instruction decoder, that's all.

 

[ScubaDuc]

I've bought 3 PC motherboards in the last year, and all have had Firewire on board. You don't find it in the cheapo PCs, but all the midrange PowerMac level stuff has Firewire these days.

As for serial connections --- what harm does it do if its there and you don't use it? Lots of people need serial ports for certain hardware that doesn't have USB ports (I'm thinking stuff like PIC controllers, etc). Certainly, its better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. I wish my new PowerMac had PCI slots, but Apple apparently thought that they were "obsolete", and should be gotten rid of, just like serial ports!

How true...my dive computer syncs only via COM port on Windows....Bleah

Anybody knows of a Mac-Friendly NOX dive computer that can handle at least 2 NOX concentrations? I need to change my Aladin

 

[gnasher729]

You've got a lot of friends that are pretty stupid if they're going spend over $1000 extra just to get a fancy case and undersized power supply.

If his friends are going to buy Mac Minis, then it will be very difficult for them to spend "over $1000 extra just to get a fancy case and undersized power supply", considering that I can buy a Mac Mini for $499. Now try to get a Windows PC at that size, and you will find that buying a Mac Mini will actually save you a lot of money.

Apple can completely wipe out the whole existing market for small case PCs with the MacMini.