Intel Developing Next PowerMac for Apple?

[gnasher729]

heh. let's see what happens when the hardware goes x86, that way we can do a real head-to-head comparison. you will be dissappointed I guarantee it.

So today Macintosh give more value for money than x86 PCs. What is your rationale for you not only suggesting but guaranteeing that this will change when Macs use an x86 processor? You don't actually give any reasons why that would be so, you just assert it. You seem to be a very irrational person.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

What on earth is the benefit of using USB over PS/2 for the keyboard/mouse of a desktop?

I have a keyboard, a trackball, a mouse, a barcode scanner, and a Wacom tablet plugged into my mac. All on USB. It's easy and well-defined how to use multiple input devices on USB and there are no special drivers or shims.

On linux you can share one computer among multiple users, with multiple USB keyboards and mouses and video cards/ports. This would be nearly impossible with PS/2.

So. let me get this straight... Your "Geek" friends want to buy an Apple laptop, wipe the OS and put Windows on it? Sorry, I just can't say "Geek" and "Windows" in the same sentence, at least not with a straight face...

This has happened to Linux users as well. They buy a Powerbook knowing it will run LinuxPPC and get the box, then turn it on to figure out how to wipe the disk, and wind up deciding not to install LinuxPPC.

SFF machines are impractical and expensive. Unlike the Mac crowd, most of the industry cares more about what a computer can do than what it look like.

Yes, unless you consider desk space or noise to be practical cosiderations.

I could get a big Dell, put it in a closet, put ventilation in the closet, run keyboard and video amplifiers back to my desk and be just as happy (ignoring the OS). But then I've just bought two Minis.

 

[AidenShaw]

I have a keyboard, a trackball, a mouse, a barcode scanner, and a Wacom tablet plugged into my mac. All on USB. It's easy and well-defined how to use multiple input devices on USB and there are no special drivers or shims.

On linux you can share one computer among multiple users, with multiple USB keyboards and mouses and video cards/ports. This would be nearly impossible with PS/2.

And I have a keyboard/mouse/scanner/joystick/mediacardreader/microphone/iPaq/cellphone plugged into mine.

Keyboard and mouse into PS/2, and the other six into the PC mobo slots.

If I used a USB kbd/mouse, I'd need a USB hub....


But the Linux example is real, although quite a stretch.

 

[irobot2003]

Their consumer products yes. (Read: Dimension series) Their corp desktops? Not in the least. Their Optiplex lines are probably one of the most reliable desktops I've ever run across. This coming from someone who has deployed around 80 of these in the last 5 years at the site I work at and another 60 downtown.
The GX110's, GX240's, and the GX280's and the GX520’s are all rock solid. I would say out of those 80 systems we have had 2 die on us. One was a NIC problem. The other was a motherboard problem. Everything else: Flawless.
Their laptops are another matter. 4 years ago I would have made the same comparison saying the Inspiron (consumer.) laptops sucked and the Latitude (Buisness.) laptops rocked. I have a 5 year old Latitude that is still running XP at home. No problems at all and this thing has been thrown around, beaten and borderline abused. That was then. Today? You couldn’t give me a Latitude. The quality is for crap on Dell’s laptop line.
[...]

At work we bought three Dell Precision 610s (which are intended for industry) back in '99. After about three years the CD-ROM drives started to fail on all of them. This was somewhat puszzling to me since I know the CD-ROM drive in the one I had saw very minimal use (used only for software installations, or reinstallations of the OS). For two out of the three, the chassis fan began to fail somewhat later. They did have outstanding keyboards though. A couple of years later we bought some more Precisions, the internals seem to be fairly reliable, but the new keyboard was essentially unusable, and there was this really flimsy/cheap plastic door covering the drive bays which was broken on delivery... the replacement was then broken fairly quickly as well when someone (who shall remain nameless) bumped into it when it was open.

High quality is not a term I'd use for Dells these days. Inexpensive and adequate, I'd say.

Conversely I have an old dell Dimension bought in '98 at home which is still going...

 

[RBR2]

Eh? I've used FW CD-R, hard drives, and video cameras on the B&W without issue. Ditto any number of 3rd-party IDE drives. There was a 128GB limit though.

Until Panther. Then everything went flakey with Firewire. Booting back to Jaguar was fine.

The same stack of gear worked great on a new iBook with the same version of Panther. So if the Firewire PHY was out of spec then the Jaguar engineers knew how to program around it. I'll bet you a donut one of the lead OSX Firewire engineers was eliminated or just hired away with the Zayante acquisition. Or he got a real bad crack habit. I still have gear that works in Jaguar and not in 10.3.9 (prolific chipsets especially).

The Rev A B&W ATA controller is well known for data corruption or just plain not working with a wide variety of drives. The Rev B was a bit better, but was still subject to problems, including being slow. The Firewire modules in the B&Ws also had well known problems transferring any real quantity of data...such as making backups. There is always the chance that Apple messed up and sent you one that worked. this was all documented in the Apple Discussion forums as well as others at the time.

 

[amateurmacfreak]

So. let me get this straight... Your "Geek" friends want to buy an Apple laptop, wipe the OS and put Windows on it? Sorry, I just can't say "Geek" and "Windows" in the same sentence, at least not with a straight face...

I think it's stupid just to buy an Apple laptop to wipe the OS and run Windows, but I do have to admit, there are plenty of Windows geeks out there (well, actually, I prefer it being Mac geeks and Windows nerds) who use Windows because of the, "better ability about to do customization," and the, "software diversity." (that's out of the mouths of nerds).
I once had this conversation with a Windows nerd (who wants a Mac too though) on AIM:
Me: Overall, do you prefer Mac OS X v10.4.3 or Windows XP? (I had the impression he was on the fence at the time)
Other guy: Friendly, Mac, but as a hardcore computer geek I have to admit I like Windows better.

Oh, and the reason he wants a Mac is for video editing.
I guess having Windows being harder to use and more unfriendly makes them feel that by operating it they're putting together some pieces of a very badly mad puzzle and taming some sort of monster. XD
Also, with the younger crowd "computer geeks," a lot, sadly, prefer Windows solely because of better gaming capabilities. But, if you're only into computers for the games, I think it better not to claim the proud title of computer geek at all.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

I don't even think that system exists yet, but if it did, I can guarantee you that it would be cheaper to get the PC.

Sure it does. In fact Dell has one. I'll skip the original poster's unrealistic specs (a quad-cpu workstation with half a gig of RAM and no RAID? Yeah, right) and do an fairly even comparison:

First, Apple:
* 2.5GHz Quad-core PowerPC G5
* 2GB 533 DDR2 ECC SDRAM- 4x512
* 2x500GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
* NVIDIA GeForce 6600 256MB SDRAM
* 16x SuperDrive DL (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
* Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse - U.S English
* Mac OS X - U.S. English
* Accessory kit
* AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll

Price: $4,923.00

Now let's look at a Dell:

Dell Precision Workstation 670:
Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ Processor 2.80GHz, 2x2MB L2 cache
2nd Processor Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ Processor 2.80GHz, 2x2MB L2 cache
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, x64 Edition with Media
2GB, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, 400MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS)
500GB SATA, 7200RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™ for RAID
2nd Hard Drive: 500GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3450, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
16XDVD and 16XDVD+/-RW w/ Sonic DM, Cyberlink PowerDVD
Sound Blaster* Audigy™ 2 (D), w/Dolby Digital 5.1 & IEEE1394
Keyboard: Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys
Mouse: Dell USB 2-Button Optical Mouse with Scroll
Speakers: Dell™ two piece stereo spkrs
No Floppy Drive
Symantic™ AntiVirus Corporate Edition
Webroot Spy Sweeper
3 Year Business Standard Plan
No Onsite System Setup

Price: $6,767.00

These are both real-world workstations. The Mac probably has a bit better memory controller and the PC is slightly faster on the clock but has a worse crossbar latch and a better video card. All in all they're close for most tasks.

If you feel I've been unfair in the product specifications please submit a rationale and alternative specifications. And yes, I'm sure Dell has some coupons going that will knock a few hundred bucks off that price. If there's a vendor who can come in under Apple for that kind of machine, please post the URL here.

And I have a keyboard/mouse/scanner/joystick/mediacardreader/microphone/iPaq/cellphone plugged into mine.

Keyboard and mouse into PS/2, and the other six into the PC mobo slots.

But the scanner/joystick/mediacardreader/microphone/iPaq/cellphone aren't HID input devices. The example I gave was all HID devices. The trackball generates "mouse" moves. The barcode scanner generates "keyboard" input. To use a barcode reader on a PS/2 you need a "shim" box that plugs in-line with the keyboard and you need a driver to run it. To use a trackball and mouse - umm... you'd probably need a serial trackball. That's where HID shines.

If I used a USB kbd/mouse, I'd need a USB hub....

Yeah, I had to spend $12 for a USB 1.1 hub for my mess. Fortunately NewEgg sells one with a magnetic back that sticks on my keyboard drawer. I wish USB could be daisy-chained like ADB. OK, it was probably $15 after shipping. Don't fall into the "I'll never need this so noone should be able to do it" trap.

But the Linux example is real, although quite a stretch.

Universities are scrambling to setup labs like this. Usually at a 4:1 ratio - with less space, cooling costs, system admin effort, etc. Apple should jump on this trend since it sells into education so effectively. Mac OS X has all the underpinnings to do it - though some may need to be dusted off from the NeXT days. What a bitter pill for them to swallow though - sell less hardware to keep the market.

The Rev A B&W ATA controller is well known for data corruption or just plain not working with a wide variety of drives. The Rev B was a bit better, but was still subject to problems, including being slow.

Ah, I have a Rev B - that might explain things. Typically Intel motherboards don't suffer Rev. A syndrome, so this may be good news.

There is always the chance that Apple messed up and sent you one that worked. this was all documented in the Apple Discussion forums as well as others at the time.

I suppose that may be true. I got a refurb so maybe it was tested. Or it could also be that there were a small percentage of bad units that went out and those people tend to report their problems. It would be interesting to find the number of people reporting those problems on the discussion boards and divide that by the number of units shipped to get a feel for the order of magnitude of the problem. Such as it matters today - I just keep mine around for the yearly OS 9 need.

 

[Randall]

Sure it does. In fact Dell has one. I'll skip the original poster's unrealistic specs (a quad-cpu workstation with half a gig of RAM and no RAID? Yeah, right) and do an fairly even comparison:

First, Apple:
* 2.5GHz Quad-core PowerPC G5
* 2GB 533 DDR2 ECC SDRAM- 4x512
* 2x500GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
* NVIDIA GeForce 6600 256MB SDRAM
* 16x SuperDrive DL (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
* Apple Keyboard & Mighty Mouse - U.S English
* Mac OS X - U.S. English
* Accessory kit
* AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll

Price: $4,923.00

Now let's look at a Dell:

Dell Precision Workstation 670:
Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ Processor 2.80GHz, 2x2MB L2 cache
2nd Processor Dual-Core Intel® Xeon™ Processor 2.80GHz, 2x2MB L2 cache
Genuine Windows® XP Professional, x64 Edition with Media
2GB, DDR2 SDRAM Memory, 400MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS)
500GB SATA, 7200RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™ for RAID
2nd Hard Drive: 500GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™
256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX 3450, Dual DVI or Dual VGA or DVI + VGA
16XDVD and 16XDVD+/-RW w/ Sonic DM, Cyberlink PowerDVD
Sound Blaster* Audigy™ 2 (D), w/Dolby Digital 5.1 & IEEE1394
Keyboard: Entry Level, USB, No Hot Keys
Mouse: Dell USB 2-Button Optical Mouse with Scroll
Speakers: Dell™ two piece stereo spkrs
No Floppy Drive
Symantic™ AntiVirus Corporate Edition
Webroot Spy Sweeper
3 Year Business Standard Plan
No Onsite System Setup

Price: $6,767.00

These are both real-world workstations. The Mac probably has a bit better memory controller and the PC is slightly faster on the clock but has a worse crossbar latch and a better video card. All in all they're close for most tasks.

If you feel I've been unfair in the product specifications please submit a rationale and alternative specifications. And yes, I'm sure Dell has some coupons going that will knock a few hundred bucks off that price. If there's a vendor who can come in under Apple for that kind of machine, please post the URL here.

See this is what I'm talking about. We're compairing G5 to Xeon etc. I want to see this compairison 1 year from now and see a Woodcrest to Woodcrest matchup. It will be fun, and I'm sure that the PC will be cheaper.

BTW I thought that you were talking about quad cores on the same chip... which aren't out yet as far as I know.

 

[ART5000]

apple has control

.

 

[wildmac]

Intel will do better...

I'm actually looking forward to Intel CPUs and MBs. With all the quirks of Apple MB these days, I'd be happy to see machines that have industry standard components.

I'll really love it when we can buy standard memory and not have it crash our Macs. The G5 towers are a royal pain with this. I've never seen machines so fussy about memory.

The big problem will be when Intel convinces Apple to drop firewire. A lot of people are going to be upset. Firewire may already be gone on the new iBooks in jan.

 

[SiliconAddict]

You've got a lot of friends that are pretty stupid if they're going spend over $1000 extra just to get a fancy case and undersized power supply.

The problems with Windows PC's isn't with the hardware, it's with Windows. Anybody who installs Windows on a Mac will have all the same problems as they would on any other hardware platform. Possibly more, since Apple won't be shipping any Windows device drivers for it.

IF its going to be using Intel chipsets it won't have too. If its using ATI or Nvidia cards it won't have to. Hard drive? Optical drive? Generic drivers will work on them. The only X factor is what is the system going to use for the BIOS. If its nothing too exotic the OS will boot without any problems. Audio could be problematic.

And are you trashing Macs on a Mac rumor site?!? You don't spend $1000 more on a Mac.

Anyone care to wager a bet on how long it will take people to get Windows running on the first x86 Mac? $50 to http://www.americaresfoundation.org if they don't get it loaded in a week. Anyone care to take that bet?

 

[ART5000]

apple has control

Just because Apple has asked or contracted with Intel for Mobo design CONTRIBUTIONS doesn't mean that Apple has handed over the house keys. IT would make sense for apple to do this since they are asserting that Intel create particular locks and keys for technological proprietary reasons, i.e. chips that assist in osx only working with designated hardware, and those highly anticipated chipsets, maybe on an exclusive market scale.

Now if I were Apple, I would ask intel to contribute and place the neccesary components on the MOBO in order to increase the effectiveness of them and deliver quality control tests and measures and minimization of errors going to market. Since they are the creators of the chips who better to test them before hitting the streets.

Further, I could bet my next months rent that Steve Jobs will not include any intel logos on the face of any product (most likely inside or on the back of the product). Yes, intel is a gaint but lets remember who controls portable music players in the world! and who runs a billion plus company as well. They are both industry gaints.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

See this is what I'm talking about. We're compairing G5 to Xeon etc. I want to see this compairison 1 year from now and see a Woodcrest to Woodcrest matchup. It will be fun, and I'm sure that the PC will be cheaper.

What do you think is causing the current price disparity that's going to change? Intel isn't getting over $1000 per CPU more for its Paxville than IBM is getting for its G5.

Do you think Woodcrest is going to cause Apple prices to go up?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Their consumer products yes. (Read: Dimension series) Their corp desktops? Not in the least. Their Optiplex lines are probably one of the most reliable desktops I've ever run across. This coming from someone who has deployed around 80 of these in the last 5 years at the site I work at and another 60 downtown.
The GX110's, GX240's, and the GX280's and the GX520’s are all rock solid. I would say out of those 80 systems we have had 2 die on us. One was a NIC problem. The other was a motherboard problem. Everything else: Flawless.

Sorry man I firmly disagree.

I particularly own an Optiplex GX260, and they collect dust in a small space very quickly, although mine has never failed. The contractor I work for on a daily, has issues with the GX240/260/280's with Power Supply's and with memory issues
(The instruction at "0x77d5c068 reference memory at 0xd9e1010d" The memory could not be written. Click on ok to terminate.") as an example. this with motherboards or transisters near the controller is a serious issue.

or its Light Codes with B/E both amber then with C/D light codes going amber which lead to a MB replacement. when I think of corporate machines I think of nothing but rack mount servers.

Company .... A large railway company in the USA.

 

[jwdsail]

Ok. If Intel iMacs come out in January I am going to be more pissed than I ever have been in my whole life. I just got a new one for Christmas (which I am in total love with, by the way). That would be the worst thing ever if new ones came about 20 days after. But that's still fairly unlikely, right?
I also really hope that Intel iBooks come out at MWSF. If they don't, I'm screwed there also. I have someone waiting to get their husband an iBook because of that rumor. And their 15 year-old son (the computer nerd of the family) is already annoyed because I decided to get an iMac instead of having him build me a computer. Anyways, what does everyone think is going to happen in January?
And will it be a good month for me? No new iMac and new iBook (or Powerbook would be fine)?

lol... Well I think you need to find some IIVX owners to know truley pissed off...

Shrug, I would prob. not be one to buy any rev a MacIntel... Shrug. A MacIntel mini, maybe... but an iMac? PowerMac? PowerBook? Nope.

just my $0.02

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Do you really think Apple designed 100% of the current systems?

So much for "Designed by Apple in California".

Why? The computer would still have been designed by Apple in California. Even if the motherboard was designed by Intel in Oregon. (Yes, that's where Intel's motherboard design is done. Although the Intel Apple group is probably in California, and any Apple-specific products would likely be in Cali.)

But if the quality suffers or innovation slows, then bad.

I worked for Intel's (server, then server/workstation, then server/workstation/desktop) motherboard group in 1999-2000. Intel WANTED innovation. Intel didn't want the stagnation that the PC industry promoted. Intel made a Mac Mini-sized motherboard with no legacy ports. No major OEMs wanted it, because it lacked PS/2, serial, and parallel.. Plus it was so small that they'd have to design a new case for it. (Intel abandoned the mini-PC design just before Shuttle made the popular.) Don't blame Intel for lack of computer innovation. Intel co-invented, or at least heavily pushed for the adoption of, many new technologies. PCI, USB, AGP, later PCI Express and DDR2; the latest is EFI, the replacement for the old-fashioned PC BIOS. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple is the first major OEM to use EFI in consumer-level PCs. Yeah, they drop the ball every once in a while (RAMBUS, anyone?) but Intel does innovate, and is willing to adopt others technology, and push it.

And in the PC industry, Intel's designs may not be known for their configurability (i.e. overclocking,) but they are known as the rock-solid standard of reliability. Intel is anal about stability and reliability. They test individual models of memory modules and keep 'memory compatibility lists' for every motherboard. Even Apple isn't that anal.

Does Apple design all thier own motherboards now?

Exactly. I doubt they do. IBM probably was a MAJOR designer of the G5 motherboard.

I don't want to lose features or be locked into Intel only tech though.

Intel ships FireWire on some of their motherboards, even though they have to use a VIA chip to do so. Intel likes to steer the computer industry, but they will follow others if the market demands it. (AMD's 64-bit extensions to the x86 ISA is just one major example, the abandonment of RAMBUS is another.)

 

[~Shard~]

Ok. If Intel iMacs come out in January I am going to be more pissed than I ever have been in my whole life.

Um, it's a computer. If something like this pisses you off more than anything in your life, you need to get out more and reevaluate your priorities.

Nonetheless, you have nothing to worry about - iBooks, PowerBooks maybe, but no Intel iMacs for a while yet.

 

[wildmac]

... with memory issues
(The instruction at "0x77d5c068 reference memory at 0xd9e1010d" The memory could not be written. Click on ok to terminate.") as an example. this with motherboards or transisters near the controller is a serious issue...

umm, I'd rather see this than the mysterious crashes, hangups, and other problems the G5's have now with bad memory. In the office where I provide support, 4 out of 10 G5s have had problems with memory bought from quality vendors.

Intel, save us....

 

[amateurmacfreak]

Um, it's a computer. If something like this pisses you off more than anything in your life, you need to get out more and reevaluate your priorities.

Nonetheless, you have nothing to worry about - iBooks, PowerBooks maybe, but no Intel iMacs for a while yet.

Haha, thanks. You know, come to think of it, George W. Bush can piss me off a lot more than a computer thing... but I guess we shouldn't get into politics on a computer board...

 

[RBR2]

Ah, I have a Rev B - that might explain things. Typically Intel motherboards don't suffer Rev. A syndrome, so this may be good news.



I suppose that may be true. I got a refurb so maybe it was tested. Or it could also be that there were a small percentage of bad units that went out and those people tend to report their problems. It would be interesting to find the number of people reporting those problems on the discussion boards and divide that by the number of units shipped to get a feel for the order of magnitude of the problem. Such as it matters today - I just keep mine around for the yearly OS 9 need.

Part of the problem has been Apple's lack of honesty and candor in these matters. They denied the existence of the problems and tried to blame the owners had spent their money on Apple's hardware. You have, not doubt heard the routine somewhere or other that "you're the only one who reported this". It was left up to the users to figure out the solutions, to the extent that solutions were possible. Though I can't quote you numbers, there were a great many people affected. You were fortunate.

Even your Rev B suffers from the limitations of the slow native ATA controller and the limited throughput of the fake PCI slots. If you install a PCI ATA controller in a B&W go ahead and put it in the 66 MHz slot that is normally used for the graphics card (and put the graphics card in one of the other "PCI" slots. It is so slow that you will lose less this way. Most people also put in a PCI Firewire card. I did. I also discovered that the Firewire module from the Yikes! machine was interchangeable with the B&W one and worked OK and so I found one and put it in. Of course I never mentioned that the Firewire implementation in the B&W was intentionally crippled in that you could not boot from a Firewire drive because Apple pinched the penny too hard and used a ROM chip that did not have space for the full Firewire instruction set.

Apple really has a very bad history of Rev A machines not being right. I think part of this is because of their decisions, in the past, to use screwball hardware for which there was no general industry support. The customers were used as beta testers. This is one of the reasons that I look forward to Intel's involvement in the design and manufacture of the new MBs. What Apple does best is come out with a decent OS and software that works reasonably well. In my opinion we will all be better off if they are able to focus their efforts on these strengths in the future.

Cheers!

 

[RBR2]

umm, I'd rather see this than the mysterious crashes, hangups, and other problems the G5's have now with bad memory. In the office where I provide support, 4 out of 10 G5s have had problems with memory bought from quality vendors.

Intel, save us....

Did you test the RAM with Rember/MemTest when you installed it?

 

[~Shard~]

Haha, thanks. You know, come to think of it, George W. Bush can piss me off a lot more than a computer thing... but I guess we shouldn't get into politics on a computer board...

No problems, just having some fun.

And actually there is a place for that of discussion if you're interested.

 

[Soculese]

Their consumer products yes. (Read: Dimension series) Their corp desktops? Not in the least. Their Optiplex lines are probably one of the most reliable desktops I've ever run across. This coming from someone who has deployed around 80 of these in the last 5 years at the site I work at and another 60 downtown.
The GX110's, GX240's, and the GX280's and the GX520’s are all rock solid. I would say out of those 80 systems we have had 2 die on us. One was a NIC problem. The other was a motherboard problem. Everything else: Flawless.
Their laptops are another matter. 4 years ago I would have made the same comparison saying the Inspiron (consumer.) laptops sucked and the Latitude (Buisness.) laptops rocked. I have a 5 year old Latitude that is still running XP at home. No problems at all and this thing has been thrown around, beaten and borderline abused. That was then. Today? You couldn’t give me a Latitude. The quality is for crap on Dell’s laptop line.

PS- For those who say you can't find Dell systems cheaper then Apple hardware. You just aren't looking hard enough. Most consumers aren't looking for a new monitor. That alone drops a few hundred off the price. Then you have coupons and the like. Or the referb site where you can find systems for under $500 with the normal 1-year warrantee. I got my Dell Optiplex GX280 off of Dell's referb site for $400 and change. Over the last year I've been upgrading the components. So instead of being hit with a $1000+ charge all of a sudden I simply add a GB of RAM there (2Gb total.), a DVD burner there, a GeForce 6800 GT there, a SATA 100Gb drive there. At the end of the day and with the help of pricegrabber.com the price I've paid is considerably less then what I would pay with an iMac along with a bigger screen - Dell 24" widescreen that can stay with me when I upgrade in a couple years. Most people don't give a crap about the whole TCO on a desktop. They care about price. At the end of the day what they can afford is X amount. They don't care if Y amount comes with all these wonderful features and such.

I notice that you skip right over the OptiPlex GX 270, the biggest pile of crap machine that Dell has put out in a while. I deployed 110 of them a year and a half ago, 40 have had their motherboards crap out. Steaming Pile of Crap. How is this for life. I support PC/Windows all day, won't touch one at home, Mac Only at home. Intel best not screw up. I do have faith in them though, they have a HUGE reputation to uphold.

 

[amateurmacfreak]

No problems, just having some fun.

And actually there is a place for that of discussion if you're interested.

Haha, thanks!

 

[~Shard~]

Haha, thanks!

No problem at all - but just remember, you're on your own in those discussions, as they can get quite heated and personal!