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I think the fundamental issue here is the usage ideology of a PowerPC and how certain people like to maintain an absolute truth in a particular "idea" of the ideology of what and how PowerPC should be used that gets people into emotional and sometimes intellectual disagreements. We can even see this in religion where one religion claims to have a revelation of an absolute truth of the divine and that the other religion claims to also have a revelation of an absolute truth of the divine. We even have countries that have a revelation of an absolute truth of an idea and if other nations disagree, then we have a war.

I think people focused too much on the revelation of a single idea as being the truth and then when someone brings forth a new progressive revelation of the expansion of that idea, we get these 2 people into a conflict.
I think people are easily stuck in the revelation part; meaning that they believe in an idea that is the absolute truth and nothing else trumps it. And yet, ideas keep improving and that's when progressive part comes in.

6 months ago, we all believe in the idea that no business is too big to fail. That was the truth then; at least a perception of reality. If someone brings in an idea that idea is false, then you get laughed at. Now what did COVID-19 brought? It brought a progressive revelation that big businesses CAN FAIL. Neiman Marcus, Hertz and the rest. It takes an event to invalid the truth; but it was never an absolute truth to begin with with no business is too big to fail. It was a relative truth based on that period of time.

The same with PowerPC. How many times had we proven that those absolute truths being peddled by the Youtubers were not really the absolute truth, but they sold theirs as such. It was their truth, their reality, but it is not our reality. And I think that some of us have our own realities that we so vehemently want to defend that we deemed them to be the absolute truth and like the big business that claimed nothing is too big to fail used their reputation and leadership in the field to dominate and supplant that truth. Until COVID 19 came along and broke that reality.

What COVID had brought us is that, we are all living in our perceived reality and sometimes we tend to use our clout and reputation to supplant this truth as the ultimate universal truth; but is it a universal truth. I think not as this is what is happening here. We have various PowerPC owners who have their own perceived reality of how their PowerPC machines provide their own benefits and they are all valid realities. Sometimes the tendency some of us have is to try and plant our own idea and reality of how we perceive how PowerPC should be used as the only true undeniable truth and reality. But what I am saying is that, it is just your idea, your truth and your own reality. Someone else can come along and bring forth progressive revelation of a new idea in how PowerPC can be used in the future. Would that not be an invalid idea?

I personally use my PowerPCs based on my own real usage; my own reality and I don't really need to dictate what my own reality should be to everyone. I share. And if people don't resonate in how I use my PowerPC, then I don't get disappointed. If I shared new ideas and get ridiculed, then I don't get upset either as I respect other people's own reality in their ownself.
 
People like Dronecatcher and Z970 who insert their agenda for how they want to use their computers into every single thread and god forbid you use them in any other way than the way they want.

I'm struggling for words to even reason with this attack - but I'll simply say this, give me direct referenced quotes on such agenda driving from me - given that you think I monopolize this forum with such posts it's should be very easy to do. Conversely you could also retract your slanderous statement.

If you choose to list all my threads about making Youtube workable as the evidence then I can only confirm that's the logic you're working on - that I shouldn't be allowed to post about Youtube.
It seems then that you and your friends don't want anyone participating in this forum unless the content is within your personal interest field or has your approval.

Also, if this is how people feel about my posts here (which I'm obviously unaware of) I'll disappear from the forum and seek psychiatric help.
 
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I can only speak for myself, but I've found @z970mp's Linux posts and @Dronecatcher's guides for maximizing web performance on PPC extremely helpful. I've been using Macs since 2004 and I've enjoyed these machines for the last 16+ years. Do I have unrealistic expectations? No. They are old and they can't do what my MacBook Pro (or even my iPhone for that matter) can when it comes to some web tasks in 2020, but they are still functional for many things. I often use my PowerBook to play Youtube playlists on my home stereo system, which frees up my iPad for other things as I don't have to leave it hooked up in place. And this is something I wouldn't have been able to do on my own without all the resources and efforts of everyone here in this community.

We each have different ideas for how to achieve what is essentially the same goal of keeping these old Macs alive and functional well into the future, but I've never felt like anyone here was trying to insert their agenda into every thread. If anything, I appreciate the quick response of the dedicated member here, all the work that all of them do, and the wealth of information they provide, which allows casual users like me to simply come here and look up a solution to our problem. I wish I could contribute as much as they do, but as is often the case, life just gets in the way, so I'm extremely grateful for everyone here and for all the help I've received over the past decade.

I think @Intell said it best:
This subforum was always a tight knit community looking out for new comers and helping old timers. Let's not stray from why we are all here; to help others and be pleasant.
 
Hello Everyone - I am interested in getting a PPC Mac to learn/play with older software. Essentially as a hobby computer. Plenty of cheap options on ebay. That being said I am not sure what would make the most sense. Maybe one of the G4 minis or an older laptop. Would be cool to be able to boot OS9. Thoughts? Maybe it is jut a waste of time.

Hi there and welcome to the PPC-forum! Did you find a Mac yet?
If not, here some more thought's about how to find the right one and my favorite way to approach os9 ...
(Everymac.com as a source to compare and find out more about old Mac has already been mentioned)

operating system:
Leopard: fun really starts at G4/>1GHz/>1GB RAM (cons: no Classic-environment, speed/ressources)
Tiger: even decent function on G3/400MHz/256GB RAM. For Tiger+Classic a bit more RAM may be helpful.
os9: happy with G3/300MHz or lower

the "books": (Great for shipping, on the go or tucking away)
- iBookG3: the Clamshells are really really nice, but expensive and have only 800x600 resolution.
The iBookG3 "Snow" is a great machines for dual-boot os9/Tiger and it has a great 1024x768 display, but unfortunately the keyboard of most units is *really* smelly.
- PowerBookG3: people, who own(ed) one are really fond of it - I have no personal experience ...
- iBookG4: sturdy devices but officially no booting into os9, but only Tiger/Classic.
- PowerbookG4 Titanium: great for dual-boot os9/Tiger. Faster models get hot - no way to control the fans - so on the fast 1GHz TiBook fans are nearly on all the time. Display hinge tend to break.
- Powerbooks G4: the 15" models are more frequent to find. No os9 except of Tiger/Classic. >1,5GHz are the fastest mobile option for Leopard. Some have a defective RAM-board, so make sure to check, both slots are working.
The the Clamshell, the white iBooks and the 12" Powerbook are really tricky to work on, e.g. swapping the drive. Adding more RAM is easy on all Macs ...


the all-in-ones: (G3/G4:difficult/expensive shipping and prone to get damaged! Better to pick-up from nearby sellers.)
- iMac G3: the early "tray-loaders" (<400MHz) have no firewire and are more tricky when it comes to (re-) installing the OS and other stuff, especially, if the optical-drive should fail. They cannot go into real hibernation - the fan always stays on.
The later "slot-loaders" (>400MHz) sport firewire (except of one indigo-model), which is most helpful, especially, if the finicky optical drive should fail. They can boot into os9 and Tiger/Classic, but I wouldn't use them for Leopard (which could be installed with some tinkering). The slot-loaders can go to real hibernation-mode and wait sleeping and silent for their next task.
Even though the iMacG3 is heavy, it's somehow easy to move and tuck away. Broken speakers (due to foam) rot can be easily replaced (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-g3-workstation-wiki.2125444/).
- iMac G4: lovely machines. A bit tricky to clean/restore/maintain - and most of them are filled with lint and in danger to die from overheating. The very early models officially are able boot into os9.
- iMacG4: fast G4 machine, great CRT-display, but overall one of it's kind ... No booting into os9.
- iMac G5: nice to look at, great display, fast. No booting into os9.

the PowerMacs: (difficult/expensive shipping and prone to get damaged! Better to pick-up from nearby sellers.)
there has been much said about that ... - they are essential, if you have special demands:
- multiple monitors
- special cards & connectivity to peripherals and scientific equipment
- maximum of speed
There's the cutting-edge somewhere within then line of G4-Quicksilvers, when booting into os9 is no longer officially supported, but there are workarounds, to make it still happen (same for the G4-mini).
Some have very loud fans. The G5 draws a lot of power and a G4mini is a way better machine for 24/7 service.
There's a lot of help to find in this forum, when it comes to hardware-tinkering, upgrade and repair.

connectivity:
the later Macs with AirPort Extreme card are able to meet the current security standards.
Elder models with an ordinary Airport card don't support latest encryption. Better use ethernet, a WLAN-To-Ethernet-bridge (OSX/os9) or e.g. an Edimax Mini USB-WLAN-Stick (drivers for only OSX) than to lower security of the router.
There are a lot of options to hook PPCs (with both os9 and OSX) into an existing Mac-, Windows- or Linux-network (file-sharing, screen-sharing).
To make use of cloud-storage, only waning support of browser-based access has been left, except from webDAV, which is available for both os9 and OSX.
MPEG2/DVD/DV-video replay and editing is possible - compressed video up to 480-720p is also possible on G4-machines, beyond 720p most machines are struggling, if possible at all (except the faster dual-core G4 or the G5s). But no way of streaming video from the big players, except low-res YouTube (and there's great contribution to all sort of video-playback/YT-streaming in this forum)

As a start I'd look for a decent iMac-G3 Slot-loader (>= 400MHz/512MB RAM) for dual-boot os9/Tiger and a faster G4-Book (>= 1,2GHZ/1GB RAM, preferably a sturdy iBook or even a >=1.5GHz 15"Powerbook) for dual-boot Tiger(&Classic)/Leopard. "Go with the flow" - I think those one's are also easier to find for a low price and replacement-batteries are easier/cheaper to find too. I'd set the price tag to 50bucks.
An iBookG3-Snow and even more the Titanium PowerBookG4 have great displays and offer dual-boot os9/Tiger, but they have some disadvantages as mentioned above.
For the heavy machines better look close to your place and pick them up personally.
Well, but these are just my personal preferences ...

Biggest fun is, to install os9 and all software from the scratch without much external help (except from the original Installation-/Recovery-CD or by an os9-installer-CD):
1) If your Mac doesn't come with the original CDs, get a copy of os9 at Macintoshgarden:
A Universal-Install of os9, which can be used on unsupported Macs can be found at Macos9lives.com: http://macos9lives.com/smforum/index.php/topic,2109.msg10853.html#msg10853
If your Mac's optical drive is broken, you may boot from a firewire-connected optical-drive or firewire-connected Mac, that is in TargetDiskMode and shares it's optical-drive through firewire.
2) After the installation of os9 you'll need Ethernet or a WLAN-To-Ethernet-bridge to set up internet-connection.
3) Here's how to use the old inbuilt browsers coming with os9 (Netscape Navigator/ internet-Explorer) to download the "Classilla"-browser, which is the best option for Web and IMAP-mail: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...mac-os-9.2228063/?post=28479839#post-28479839
4) Then you have to download Toast5 to mount images.
5) With the help of Alladdin StuffitExpander (comes with os9) and Toast5 you're able to download stuff from Macintoshgarden and extract archives or mount images for further installation.
6) Essential/additional hardware gadgets: external FireWire-OpticalDrive, external FireWire-Harddrive (the legacy LaCie-stuff is great), Edimax-Mini-USB-WLAN-Stick (for OSX), WLAN-To-Ethernet-Bridge, replacement-speakers for iMacG3; SSD (mSATA+mSATA-IDE-Converter for the books; SSD+SSD-IDE-Converter for e.g. the iMacG3)

Here are my personal favorites for os9:
The G3 Workstation Wiki!
Email Client and Applications for Mac OS9
Need G3 Recommendations



Well, I've learned all about this by the kind help of the members of this forum,
so all merits go to this community!
Thanks a lot guys and stay healthy (and friendly to each other too ...;))
 
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@bobesch - Now that's a Buyer's Guide. :D
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Thanks @crammedberry - I was beginning to think I've been posting on here for six years with a split personality ;)
Don't worry - I am also one of these members who greatly enjoy and value your contributions to making YT possible - and other things.
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The iBookG3 "Snow"
the faster models with Radeons are subject to GPU failure. That is something to look out for.
 
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OK, I'll admit, I too have problems with z970mp and Dronecatcher. Z can't keep an avatar for more than, like, two minutes. And D, well... he's always looking at me...

But anyway. We're not going to just get along here, not all the time, because we're only human beings after all. I've had my own spats with others in this forum, because somebody just got my goat and I wouldn't let it go. Things set us off, it happens.
 
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OP here! Many thanks to you all. Didn't mean to go radio silent - sometimes life is more important than tracking my hobby-macs thread. Reading through this all now. That buyers guide is awesome.
Nice to see you back!
Installing os9 just using the PowerPC-Mac is really good fun!
My favorite book about os9 - comes 2nd hand for a few bucks.
missing manual.jpg
 
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Ha, this discussion about os9 is one of its kind!
Two sentences in anger: one said in an exhausting situation while moving house and stuff and after being ambiguously questioned about that stuff (which turned out to be a big misunderstanding!!! - welcome @Texas_Toast !) - the other because of being upset by the first one’s comment.
Seriously that should have been sorted out with a beverage and a handshake.
The whole discussion and comments afterwards turned a midge to an elephant.
I personally like @bunnspecials comments and advise and I dare to say NOBODY here questions that he's an upright person.
Same for @Dronecatcher 's and his contributions to video, web-browsing, Linux etc.
Please all together stop unnecessary discussion, come together and return to the OP’s question.

(@mods: better?)
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And there's one more thing ... We want @bunnspecial back! ;)
 
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I’d just like to input that the events that have transpired in this thread are the exact reason why I have lost any motivation to use my collection of PowerPC Macs.
You shouldn't do that!
This very abstract way of communication in a forum has so many pitfalls of misunderstanding.
There are a lot of things changing ones mind in a bad way too (shutdown, personal circumstances etc. )
which may cause misinterpretations.
Better think twice before starting to blame someone ...
This is a nice community - a lot of members and each one covering his/her special fields.
Kind of swarm-intelligence. It would be a tragedy, if this would break apart ...
So welcome back to the swarm!
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Also, if this is how people feel about my posts here (which I'm obviously unaware of) I'll disappear from the forum and seek psychiatric help.
No, don't ever think about it! This place wouldn't be the same without your attendance!
For the worse.
 
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Thank you for the kind support @bobesch - however, after today I'm losing the enthusiasm to contribute.
No!
do not loose your enthusiasm nor leave this community.
(I do enjoy your postings very much!!!)
The PPC-subforum is built on different people with different interests on different subjects.
And that's the way, how it should work and thrive for the best of all.
I'm really sorry, that I've been silent on this very topic for a few days, cause I though, everything would calm down ...
But discussion finally ended kind of disastrous.
This is not real. This is a chain of unfortunate and sort of classic misunderstandings and maybe combined with the disastrous effects of Covid19 and shutdown.
We all have to take better care of each other ('s opinions).
Cheers!
 
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I really can imagine how that feels ... but, please, do not loose your enthusiasm nor leave this community.

It is a great community - with an incredible amount of knowledge, enthusiasm and positive support to all who comes along. However, being told you're the reason people have ceased to participate in the forum and seeing the same names again and again picking fights with me...it's a bit wearing. Anyway, it's late - all the best @bobesch
 
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It is a great community - with an incredible amount of knowledge, enthusiasm and positive support to all who comes along. However, being told you're the reason people have ceased to participate in the forum and seeing the same names again and again picking fights with me...it's a bit wearing. Anyway, it's late - all the best @bobesch
Take it as a cumulation of single visual distortion fields ... Nothing more.
 

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It is a great community - with an incredible amount of knowledge, enthusiasm and positive support to all who comes along. However, being told you're the reason people have ceased to participate in the forum and seeing the same names again and again picking fights with me...it's a bit wearing. Anyway, it's late - all the best @bobesch

We've all needed to take extended breaks occasionally, to live without the forum in our lives. Myself and several others have done it multiple times over the years as necessary, when the need has arisen.

If you feel that is what you must do, then do it with abandon! We will still be here, eagerly awaiting your return. :)

Safe travels.
 
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That's a really low and bold statement to push. I've been lurking on the sub for a while because I genuinely miss working on this stuff, but as you guessed it regular life gets in the way.

Anyways, I had to actually post again because I have actually personally met Bunns in person and this statement is FAR from the truth. I went on a country wide trip a few years ago and Bunns not only invited me over to help me diagnose my dead Quicksilver, but once we found my CPU (1ghz DP) was dead, he sent me home with the best replacement he had at the time, free of charge mind you.

The entire time I was there, he kept offering me FREE machines, of which I obviously wanted, but knew they wouldn't get the love and attention they deserve so I turned a LOT down. And I mean a LOT. End of the day, I still left with a free CPU and even a few other free goodies that Bunns was more than happy to donate to me.

I don't usually go half way across the country to visit some man I met online, but Bunns and a few other people (you all know who you are) have been seriously some of the nicest and most helpful folks I've yet to meet. Not only did this forum help with my PPC's when I couldn't afford anything better to use in late 2012 but in the past few years even the same people here, helped me buy the Mac of my dreams and to those individuals I thank you. Its these kinds of people that have made my life easier.

So Dronecatcher, before you make baseless assumptions like that, I urge you to check this forum, and the LEM page on Facebook and see all the contributions and help Bunns has offered. Cause this drama is useless and not factual at all.

Ok Dave. So essentially what you’re saying is that You drove across country to hang out with some guy you met online named Bunns? :D
 
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