Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Well played Apple, why not take it one step further and have a trusted Mac / PC option so that data is only allowed when the machine is trusted.
 
I'm still in iOS 10 so meh. If I update my iPhone 7 doesn't it disable the mic too?
You need to update. Mic is hardware problem on 7 and 7 Plus. You need to replace your iPhone if you affected.
[doublepost=1525855170][/doublepost]
An unintended downside: imagine you have a close friend or family member pass away. You/their family want to access their devices afterwards for photos, remembrance, information about their final days, etc. Absent the biometric and passcode (which I am assuming you don't have) you will need the cord access to get in. With a billion devices out there, I am thinking this will happen more frequently than the law enforcement access it is intended to prevent.

And to anyone who wonders why this would even be necessary, I submit you have not suddenly lost a loved one. Not uncommon to go looking for answers or solace in their devices, notify friends of the passing, etc. Asking people to try to get in there within 7 days isn't always realistic or feasible.

It’s jusy another thing everyone needs to do. Like backups, everyone needs emergency kit, master password stored in a safe place. Sharing your master password with spouse also will work and it’s easy with 1Password.
 
Last edited:
That's so cool. iOS 18 can disable itself after 7 attempts and Android p can call a restaurant, speak to a live person and make a reservation for you - in the background - and then let you know.

Uh, okay.

Yes. One protects the user, and the other is stunningly creepy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fairuz
Well played Apple, why not take it one step further and have a trusted Mac / PC option so that data is only allowed when the machine is trusted.

This has been the case since iOS 7.
[doublepost=1525861292][/doublepost]
And if the battery is dead?

Then you charge it. This doesn't disable charging via Lightning. It disables data via Lightning.
[doublepost=1525861648][/doublepost]
If so, them multiply all the times by 3 and you'll get a pretty good idea on how long the GrayKey will take to crack an iPhone.

Right. I've posted likely durations a few times here. GrayKey is basically impractical as soon as you have seven digits, much less any alphanumeric characters…
[doublepost=1525861963][/doublepost]
On the bypass of this feature: If I had sufficient funds, I would use a farraday cage to block any outside cellphone signal. I would then setup a GSM cell within that cage together with the phone in question.
You don't need to fool the phones NTP (does it really have NTP, I doubt it), just make sure you send the time signal in the GSM network, that is picked up by the phone.

iOS does use NTP.

iOS does not use GSM's time signal. At least early versions did not, and I'd be surprised if Apple ever bothered to implement it.

Yes, you as a users can turn that off too, but that would stop the phone from auto updating the time, and realizing you moving time zones which would be sort of a pita, so it would be safe to assume most people won't turn that feature off.

Leaving aside how seldom most people move between time zones, iOS uses Location Services for that, not GSM.

I would assume that iOS limits the amount of time you can move backwards so you wouldn't be able to just tell the phone it has gone back a week or more in time, that kind of checks is probably in place. But, if you make the phone completely out of power so the RTC stops, then the phone would have no other option than to believe the time signal coming via the GSM network as soon as it connects, and the phone does connect to whatever GSM network it is let into as soon as it's powered on so that emergency calls can be made, and if the RTC has stopped it will use AT-commands to the GSM-modem to acquire network time data and set the RTC, which then can be at an arbitrary time and date of your choosing.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions here based on 1980s'-level implementations of cellphones.
[doublepost=1525862191][/doublepost]
This is bad news for Apple then..

Or bad news for trolls.
 
I think you have to look at it. If you keep your eyes closed, it will not unlock; if they try to hold your eyes open, the biometrics will be wrong.
There is an option in FaceID with selects whether you need to be looking at your phone directly or not.
 
Don't go online either. MacRumors and nearly every other site use Google Analytics, which means everything you're doing is being recorded. What pages you visit, what links you click, how long you're on each page, and much more. All recorded to a nice tidy profile about everything you're doing. And then you use Google Maps to get directions and the GPS functionality so they know where you went and when.
I use Apple maps. Don’t even gave google maps installed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tooloud10
Nice! Now would be even nicer if it was shorter then 7 days. 1 day is fine with me. A couple of hours would be fine with me too.
Exactly my thinking. Should be a user changeable setting.
 
This whole MITM NTP server nonsense is very easily circumvented with something like a timer that starts ticking after you unplug it from the USB (or many other ways). I'm sure Apple has thought of this as it's such an obvious attack vector.

Authenticated NTP also exists.
 
A six digit passcode (numbers) can be cracked by the GrayKey device (Cracker?) in 11-22 hours. Plenty of time for them to get into the phone (they've now got 7 days with iOS 11.4).

But an 8 digit passcode can't be cracked in under 46 days, so the Cracker won't be able to get in.

An eight digit passcode is easy enough to remember--- BUT if you want to use 8 digits, you've got to choose the "alphanumeric password" option in settings. This will unfortunately default to the keyboard on password entry which is a royal pain because the keyboard keys are so small.

Apple now needs to let us use the normal big button passcode keypad for more than 6 digit passcodes. Then we'll be set.

Bold: Wrong

It can be cracked in 1 second even, chance that happens is like 0.00000000000....1 % but it is possible.
Most likely it will take much loner though.

Example: I have a 1 digit password, so, 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9, it takes 1 second for each password so the maximum amount to crack this is 10 seconds, yet if my password is lets say 5 and the first attempt is 5 it only takes 1 second to crack.


What's the problem? They caught the people.

You might not know but this is illegal in most countries.
 
Last edited:
It would seem those here think this will protect them in some way. In reality it's most likely to cause only them issues. In most cases, agencies are already well at work on a phone within 7 days, most often within hours of acquiring it.

And in high value cases the search warrant will scoop up hardware in the home/office.
 
Bold: Wrong

It can be cracked in 1 second even, chance that happens is like 0.00000000000....1 % but it is possible.
Most likely it will take much loner though.

Example: I have a 1 digit password, so, 0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9, it takes 1 second for each password so the maximum amount to crack this is 10 seconds, yet if my password is lets say 5 and the first attempt is 5 it only takes 1 second to crack.




You might not know but this is illegal in most countries.
My password is something like:
I7guy_MacRumors_here_and!_There.

Have fun cracking it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SRLMJ23
An unintended downside: imagine you have a close friend or family member pass away. You/their family want to access their devices afterwards for photos, remembrance, information about their final days, etc. Absent the biometric and passcode (which I am assuming you don't have) you will need the cord access to get in. With a billion devices out there, I am thinking this will happen more frequently than the law enforcement access it is intended to prevent.

And to anyone who wonders why this would even be necessary, I submit you have not suddenly lost a loved one. Not uncommon to go looking for answers or solace in their devices, notify friends of the passing, etc. Asking people to try to get in there within 7 days isn't always realistic or feasible.

A little preparation ahead of time helps; unless you truly have something to hide you can't share with your SO, cross-enable Touch ID on each other's phones at a minimum and keep those fingerprints updated/accurate. In the case of the X, memorize/store each other's passphrases in a secure password manager on the other's device at a minimum.

It takes less than 5-10 minutes to configure a pair of devices to prevent exactly this type of situation.
 
Should be limited to 1 day

After reading all the comments... WHAT SORT OF STUFF ARE YOU ALL HIDING IN YOUR PHONES?

What are you so scared of?
That’s not really a smart question to ask y’know. My first thoughts instantly swung to bank details, personal information like addresses of friends and family members, some of whom might be living in protection or be vulnerable. In addition in my case I don’t want people finding out business receipts, my planner as it would indicate when the house is empty, photos of my partner and kids, home video footage that could be used by that “ai fakes” thing to cause any kind of personalized mayhem.....

Having seen what losers do when they get your personal info..... I recall a relative in 2014, obviously not going into more personal detail, that spoke out against conservatives and was later doxxed by those imbeciles. They were sent death threats, people knocking on their door, leaving lewd voice mails on the house phone. Absolutely hate scum like that. Why give them more ammo?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tooloud10
7 days is just likely a compromise between security and giving LE time to obtain a warrant.

For those of you talking about how easy it will be to defeat with a fake cell and NTP server, remember that the iPhone is quite capable of keeping time on it's own. Trivial to put code in there to not adjust time while the phone is locked.

And if you've ever worked with NTP, you'd know that a) there is a delta above wich the time will not adjust, period. And within that delta, the time will not just jump. It takes time for a NTP client to adjust to the time served by the server.
 
  • Like
Reactions: stylinexpat
This is an excellent first step. Next iteration, let's get user configurable time frames and the ability to security wipe if necessary. OR... the ability to disable data through the lightning port completely. I don't think I ever use that port for data, so I would be good with it. Hell, with Qi charging, don't even need the lightning port (have to think that one through to be sure).
 
And how do you do this without unlocking?

You might be able to set up a MITM NTP server that feeds the wrong time (off by several days), but smart NTP clients won't actually accept such a lie, so this probably wouldn't work.


Huh???

That setting is on by default... allowing manipulation (potentially) if your phone is taken.

I am saying you, the person that owns it, now before it is taken, turn that setting off so it can't be used to manipulate the date/time while locked or attacked.

Also, I am not 100% sure how iPhones get their time info when that setting is on, but the options are:

A) From the cell network (non GSM only, i.e. CDMA (Verizon, Sprint))
B) GPS
C) NTP server

All I know is with that setting off, the phone date and time won't auto-set to whatever is represented as the current date and time no matter method.

Maybe someone could definitively confirm how, say an AT&T iPhone, gets it's "Automatic Time" value.

NTP?
GPS?
[doublepost=1525878027][/doublepost]By the way.... I do work in the reverse engineering field from time to time, and have for quite a long time. What OldSchoolMacGuy is saying is not impossible. So just be aware. I have actually done some law enforcement forensics myself.

That said, it's not all super hand-wavy top secret stuff other than that often someone finds an exploit and they milk it and try to keep it secret as long as possible. There is some hard-core stuff that goes on too.... sure. Like de-capping memory chips, etc. But that is rare and extreme.

Also, keep in mind that the average person who would have their phone confiscated will have the trusted PC associated with it in their home. Law enforcement could get a warrant for that PC, and then gain access to it using any number of Windows exploits for example if it is a Windows PC.

If you are really that worried:

A) Don't use iCloud for backups
B) Don't use iCloud Drive
C) Don't use iCloud Keychain
D) Encrypt local iTunes backups
E) Use a mac and use drive encryption
F) Use a 16 character alphanumeric device passcode that contains little or no known words from any language
G) Use a strong password on your Mac
H) Turn off frequent locations in your iPhone settings
I) Turn off automatic time set
J) Set require passcode to immediate
K) Set erase data after failed attempts
L) Don't use the same password or passcode for any two accounts or devices
M) Don't keep anything in email you don't want seen
N) Don't do anything illegal

I am sure there are more. Maybe there should be a security best practices Wiki.

Anyway, even with all of this, this only makes you reasonably secure and will hinder abuse only.

Do the above, don't do anything illegal, and if law enforcement does spend time to get around all of these measures to only find that you have done nothing illegal, it will likely discourage the behavior.
 
Last edited:
Huh???

That setting is on by default... allowing manipulation (potentially) if your phone is taken.

I am saying you, the person that owns it, now before it is taken, turn that setting off so it can't be used to manipulate the date/time while locked or attacked.

Yes, but even with the setting on, NTP manipulation is hard.

Also, I am not 100% sure how iPhones get their time info when that setting is on, but the options are:

A) From the cell network (non GSM only, i.e. CDMA (Verizon, Sprint))
B) GPS
C) NTP server

They use NTP.

Early iOS, at least, never supported setting the time via GSM (much less GPS), but rather used NTP. I see no reason to believe Apple eventually added support for those since NTP has always been there.

All I know is with that setting off, the phone date and time won't auto-set to whatever is represented as the current date and time no matter method.

Right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fairuz
Why even have a delay at all? Aside from charging (and it should be easy to disable data communication over the port while still allowing the phone to be charged), I can't think of a reason why I'd want the lightning port to work when my phone is locked. I'm ok with having to always unlock my phone anytime I connect it to anything.

On a related note, I completely agree that 7 days is too long. I'd want it to be on the order of hours or a max of 1 day.
 
An unintended downside: imagine you have a close friend or family member pass away. You/their family want to access their devices afterwards for photos, remembrance, information about their final days, etc. Absent the biometric and passcode (which I am assuming you don't have) you will need the cord access to get in. With a billion devices out there, I am thinking this will happen more frequently than the law enforcement access it is intended to prevent.

And to anyone who wonders why this would even be necessary, I submit you have not suddenly lost a loved one. Not uncommon to go looking for answers or solace in their devices, notify friends of the passing, etc. Asking people to try to get in there within 7 days isn't always realistic or feasible.

When I die, the last thing I want is for anyone, family included, to decide it’s appropriate to go snooping through my phone. You wouldn’t snoop on your living family members’ phones or computers. What is it about death that makes it okay to disrespect them like that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tooloud10
Why even have a delay at all? Aside from charging (and it should be easy to disable data communication over the port while still allowing the phone to be charged), I can't think of a reason why I'd want the lightning port to work when my phone is locked. I'm ok with having to always unlock my phone anytime I connect it to anything.

On a related note, I completely agree that 7 days is too long. I'd want it to be on the order of hours or a max of 1 day.

First, charging will still work.

Second, it's a balance of security and convenience. For LE, 7 days gives them a reasonable time frame to secure a warrant.

For the user, having to always unlock when connecting to a trusted computer will be a pain.
 
Well played Apple, why not take it one step further and have a trusted Mac / PC option so that data is only allowed when the machine is trusted.

If the police have stolen your phone, they’ve probably also stolen your laptop, too.
 
You might not know but this is illegal in most countries.
Plenty of police activities are illegal in most countries, including owning or carrying guns.
[doublepost=1525881034][/doublepost]
Crypto, too (I’m not sure if macOS is configured to require it, but it’s an option according to the manpage), but I meant the maximum offset between client and server time:



That’s just a little over 15 minutes. So regardless of crypto, you can’t just force a several-days adjustment onto the client. (Assuming macOS doesn’t disable this.)

(edit) It should be noted that that was the manpage for ntpd, which macOS doesn't actually use. It uses timed, which works differently. It's reasonable to assume that timed has similar precautions.
Ah, I was wondering if they had something like that. But how frequently does iOS check the NTP server? If it's 15 minutes or less, you can keep the phone at the same time forever or go backwards slowly.

Edit: People are saying the poll frequency is variable in Linux and macOS. You might be able to trick it into polling more frequently by reporting some drift initially. Also, I know it allows any size drift when you initially enable auto time setting, so maybe there are other exceptions like when it's booting up.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.