iPhone 8 Facial Recognition Appears to Support Payments, Multiple Faces and Third-Party Apps

[BornAgainMac]

But what if you get really fat and the camera wont recognize you anymore?

Plus, i think FBI is gonna be realllly happy about this new 3d camera. All they'll have to do, to unlock certain phone, is tell the suspect "look in to the camera and smile!. That is if he wasnt shot in the head before or blew himself up.

Yes, I think they talked to Apple behind the scenes and provided a solution that would meet both privacy and law enforcement needs.

 

[joeblow7777]

I suppose identical twins will have to try it out and see. Maybe the iPhone will be able to tell them apart. Maybe it won't.

Doesn't matter to me, since I don't have an identical twin. People who have prosthetic hands likely have trouble using Touch ID. Since I do have hands, I am able to use it most of the time, though if my hands are wet it doesn't work AT ALL and I have to revert to entering my passcode. With ALL ITS MONEY, Apple couldn't make TouchID work with wet hands! Obviously TouchID was not ready for prime time.

I've never had problems with TouchID with wet hands, but I think you're reading too much into my question if you think that I'm suggesting that facial ID isn't viable because of twins. However the fundamental difference is that the situations you mention make it harder for a person to use TouchID, but they don't allow someone else to use it in their place, which sort of defeats the whole purpose. No, I don't have a twin, and I know that it's relatively rare, so I honestly don't really care, but I'm just curious.

I don't see how it could possible be sensitive enough to distinguish between identical twins, but still allow for normal variations within the same face, like growing/shaving facial hair, glasses, changes in weight, etc.

 

[DNichter]

I think with 3D scanning, it should be able to devise slight differences in the shape of someone's face/head. I don't think the twin thing will be an issue. Even if it authenticated for both, I am not sure it would be that big of an issue anyway.

 

[ValO]

I know that people have raised concerns about it being fooled by pictures, which I'm sure Apple is clever enough avoid, but I guess anyone with an identical twin will have to be cool with their sibling being able to access their phone. Fingerprints at least are unique for every single person. Not even twins have the same.

You really should search youtube, microsoft hello and identical twins. The twins lost... hello won. And that is an older technique than apple will use.

To end this " twin " -sh...

 

[joeblow7777]

You really should search youtube, microsoft hello and identical twins. The twins lost... hello won. And that is an older technique than apple will use.

To end this " twin " -sh...

But then, how does it handle variations within the same face if it's that sensitive?

 

[hawkeye_a]

The iPhone5 looked worse than the iPhone4 (2 tone back)
the iPhone6 looked worse than the iPhone5 (bigger, camera bulge, 'lines')
the iPhone7 looks worse than the iPhone 6 (worse camera bulge)

...and it seems like that trend continues.

 

[ValO]

But then, how does it handle variations within the same face if it's that sensitive?

What variations? A hair? Or loosing weight?
If you loose weight, bone structures and distances remain the same.
And if you use it everyday, wouldn' t it update small changes every time you use it?

 

[Mousesuck]

I know that people have raised concerns about it being fooled by pictures, which I'm sure Apple is clever enough avoid, but I guess anyone with an identical twin will have to be cool with their sibling being able to access their phone. Fingerprints at least are unique for every single person. Not even twins have the same.

Identical twins aren’t necessarily a problem, that would only depend on the PEARL sensibility and accuracy.

I say this because of asymetri, no face is symmetrical.
If you compare both halfs of your face they will be different.

If you measure the face of one identical twin, his face is going to be asymmetrical just like yours.

If you compare the face of both identical twins, their individual asymmetry translates into interindividual asymmetry.
They are not an exact copy of each other, as we aren’t even an exact copy of the other half of our own bodies.

Therefor the data points will change between identical twins.

On top of this epigenetic and external ambient factors contribute even more to define the difference.

 

[shplock]

The fingerprint-under-screen reader you're referring to was a prototype- a rather slow one from the reports- and not ready for a consumer phone.

Just because Apple has tons of money doesn't mean they can magically make an immature technology instantly available.

The fact that they *didn't* put it in the 8 makes it clear that this tech isn't ready yet, at least not up to Apple's standards.

I have to correct you. Actually Apple CAN bring an immature tech to market with all of it's money. A technology such as this under the screen fingerprint reader may be not quite ready for mass market yet. let us assume that is true. So how does it suddenly get ready?
The answer is that a company or series of companies plough lots of money into r&d and then the breakthrough is made that enables the technology to be mass produced and at acceptable yield rates.
If we look back to the iPhone 5s and Touch id, other phone makers had tried to place a fingerprint reader in a phone and failed because the technology was not ready. Though somehow Apple succeeded. they succeeded because they bought Authentec and ploughed money into the Touch id sensor to make it ready and doable.
So Apple could plough lots of money into the under screen fingerprint reader if they wanted to, I just think that they do not want to spend as much cash as is needed because Apple prefers to hoard as much as possible rather than spend what is necessary.
On the other hand we may still be surprised and learn that they have done it. Just because the Home pod firmware ha snot yet shown proof of an under screen fingerprint reader does not mean they have failed.
After all absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.

 

[shplock]

Facial recognition means the cameras can authenticate the user's face far more frequently than Touch ID can. And it can do so without interruption.

Sudden movement detected by motion co-processor? Authenticate.

Launch app or data access? Authenticate.

Inactivity timeout? Authenticate.

Yes but you have not addressed their points. What would YOU do if that scenario happened to you?
How would you expect that Apple prevent someone from just grabbing you phone from you and point it at you then run off with it?

 

[HEK]

That's a good thought. But then how do I show someone else something on my phone?

Have them Look over your shoulder

 

[shplock]

Yes, and as soon as they turn it back around to use it... locked again.

Good point HOWEVER the Home pod firmware apparently shows that the iPhone will unlock with the front or the rear camera so if they are pointing it(or a thief pointing it) at you then they could just use the rear camera and they would be looking at the front.
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As soon as they turn the phone around to use the phone, it will lock because it detects the correct user is no longer using it.

Yes HOWEVER the Homepod firmware seems to show that the phone cam unlock by using the front or the rear camera. So they could point the rear camera at you and it would unlock, then hey presto they are looking at the screen and they have access.

 

[Mousesuck]

Yes but you have not addressed their points. What would YOU do if that scenario happened to you?
How would you expect that Apple prevent someone from just grabbing you phone from you and point it at you then run off with it?

If someone grabs your phone and runs away, the camera wouldn’t detect your face anymore and would instantaneously lock the phone as soon as it can’t see you.

So the phone would be locked which doesn’t happen with Touch ID. If someone runs away with your Touch ID phone unlocked they will run away with an unlocked phone.

Then as everybody you ask, so nobody can use my phone except me?

Obviously, when somebody interacts with your iPhone, and the IPhone doesn’t recognize his face, that person is prompted to insert the password.

 

[doelcm82]

I don't see how it could possible be sensitive enough to distinguish between identical twins, but still allow for normal variations within the same face, like growing/shaving facial hair, glasses, changes in weight, etc.

Identical twins aren't actually identical. They share the same DNA, but as you said, they have different fingerprints. How is it possible for the same DNA to form different fingerprints? The answer is that DNA doesn't control fingerprints. And while it does guide the formation of facial features, the shape of the face can also be affected by the relative position of the twins in the womb, or by events that happen after (or during) birth.
I have identical twin step-sisters. They look alike, but it's easy to tell them apart after you know them a short while. One looks like Helen Hunt, and the other doesn't. Opinions vary as to which of them is the one who looks like Helen Hunt, but the point is they are recognizable as individuals.

I suspect there might be twins who are close enough to fool Face ID, but they will have to deal with it, just as they have to deal with their siblings murdering them and then taking over their lives, or surviving that murder attempt and coming back to plot revenge (I know this happens, because I've seen it in the movies).

If someone has an identical twin and wants to keep her phone contents private, she should definitely test whether Face ID works well enough to tell them apart before purchasing a phone that relies on it, or before enabling the Face ID feature.

 

[Mousesuck]

Good point HOWEVER the Home pod firmware apparently shows that the iPhone will unlock with the front or the rear camera so if they are pointing it(or a thief pointing it) at you then they could just use the rear camera and they would be looking at the front.
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Yes HOWEVER the Homepod firmware seems to show that the phone cam unlock by using the front or the rear camera. So they could point the rear camera at you and it would unlock, then hey presto they are looking at the screen and they have access.

You do realize that you are talking about a problem that already exists with Touch ID right?

If you grab an unlocked phone from somebody’s hands and It is already unlocked by Touch ID, it would happen exactly the same thing...

As you said “then hey presto they are looking at the screen and they have access.”

Besides, at least with facial recognition, even if as you said the back camera of the iPhone also works for autentication, at least the thief wouldn’t be able to run away if he wants the phone to remain unlocked...

 

[Paul6s]

I would agree. Many seem to not appreciate a white front and the copper color. I for one like it. I think it's a different contrast and the bronzed cooper tone seems like a color Apple Would release.

Looking at those mock ups with the white front with the bronze back looks very Apple compared to the mock up I saw online with the bronze color with the black front.

 

[montanaco]

How do some models of the copper color looks absolutely disgusting and others are stunning

 

[Stangy123]

In what way has TouchID failed? IMHO, it works every time and the only issues I have is with contactless readers not working.

Sorry I didn't clarify, I meant Apple failed to get it to work under the glass for Iphone 8. It's awesome on 7 and I'm sure will be great on the 9. This faceID thing is a stop gap until they get it to work.

 

[HEK]

Lovely. Wonderful. But please spare a thought for all those (mostly prospective) Tesla owners who are apparently having wet dreams about their driverless Model 3's.

The model 3 is not driverless. In fact previous Tesla ran under a semi truck. Camera blinded by sun on side of truck and radar didn't see anything as was aimed below truck. Testa drove under truck turning it into first convertible Tesla.

 

[BlankSlate]

So face-id can add multiple faces so you can hand your phone to people you trust. This could be a tough one for couples who don't trust each other though. In order to show the other something on your phones screen, you have to add their face knowing full well they can then snoop through your phone later on. Maybe face-id can be switched off with a toggle and then turned back on again automatically once the screen has been shut off. That way at least you don't have to add every friend or gf/bf for them to glance at your phone for a sec.

 

[jimbobb24]

Facial recognition is a crap solution compared to TouchID. I hope Apple did not lose out on TouchID. So sad if true.

 

[HEK]

So face-id can add multiple faces so you can hand your phone to people you trust. This could be a tough one for couples who don't trust each other though. In order to show the other something on your phones screen, you have to add their face knowing full well they can then snoop through your phone later on. Maybe face-id can be switched off with a toggle and then turned back on again automatically once the screen has been shut off. That way at least you don't have to add every friend or gf/bf for them to glance at your phone for a sec.

Maybe faces can have selective authorization levels. Look see/no snoop, semi snoop/no pay, full authorization, etc.

 

[groove-agent]

Im curious how secure facial recognition is. I remember MR showing how it can be defeated by simply holding up a pic of the owner up to the camera. What if you have an evil twin?

 

[BlankSlate]

Maybe faces can have selective authorization levels. Look see/no snoop, semi snoop/no pay, full authorization, etc.

That's actually a very good solution, I hope Apple implements something like this.

 

[JPack]

Yes but you have not addressed their points. What would YOU do if that scenario happened to you?
How would you expect that Apple prevent someone from just grabbing you phone from you and point it at you then run off with it?

My first point already addressed that.

Sudden movement detected by motion co-processor? Authenticate.

I'm not sure why some people here are expecting security that exceeds the type that guards national strategic infrastructure. This is a consumer electronics device built with $300 components geared towards convenience and speed. Yes, there will be false positives. If you wanted to fool Touch ID with a lifted print, you could. If you have a physically similar twin, you may be able to fool facial recognition.