iPhone without Contract in Germany? - 999€ UPDATE: Confirmed + 600€ for an unlock!

[nja247]

Apple chose to sell the iphone at a lower price in the US and AT&T chose to sell the iphone monthly plan at a lower price in the US.

Apple chose to sell the iphone at a higher price in Europe and O2/T-Mobile (and soon Orange) chose to sell iphone monthly plan at a higher price in Europe.

Which side of the Atlantic are the consumers better off?

Obviously you think that economics is that simple. You're wrong, it's not. Again as noted above the two markets are not even the same or comparable and you're generalising to make irrelevant points. For you the discussion is no longer about the iPhone, but is about stating that is America (USA #1). You really shouldn't be on the Mac Forums talking about an iPhone, but rather some political forum.

UK carriers charge unlocking fees. French laws allow unlocking fee in the first 6 months of the contract. German laws also allow unlocking fee before the contract ends. Netherlands allows unlocking fee in the first 12 months.

DMCA exemptions are only useful as a defense when you get sued for unlocking your own phone. It doesn't give you any additional right. American carriers have provided unlocking codes for free after 90 days --- even before the DMCA exemptions.

Allowing for and actually charging them is a different matter my friend. The point you miss is that many of these laws REQUIRE unlocking. Also post your sources as it's established that you're biased.

Don't kid yourself --- the whole European mobile handset business is based on a VAT carousel fraud that is about 20 billion euro a year.

You are getting cheap phones because every level of the value chain (from dealers to distributors) gets some money off this VAT carousel fraud. The distributor can sell the phones to the dealers because they are making money elsewhere (on the VAT front). Then the dealer can sell the phones to you because they are also making money elsewhere.

What does any of this have to do with the iPhone? Point is it's available in Germany on contract or not and is unlocked either way. This is likely the same setup in France. Why is this a political debate for you? Simply stay in the States and you don't need to worry about us poor Europeans getting robbed like you say.

 

[samab]

Allowing for and actually charging them is a different matter my friend. The point you miss is that many of these laws REQUIRE unlocking. Also post your sources as it's established that you're biased.

The point you miss is that American carriers do offer unlocking codes for FREE --- without any legal requirement. And that has nothing to do with the DMCA exemptions because American carriers had been doing this for a long time.

 

[nja247]

The point you miss is that American carriers do offer unlocking codes for FREE --- without any legal requirement. And that has nothing to do with the DMCA exemptions because American carriers had been doing this for a long time.

Again, this has to do with the iPhone how? Can you ring up AT&T and have it unlocked? Thought so. Can you opt to buy one unlocked if you so wish? Thought so. Don't care to argue over politics anymore. This is a German issue with a German law and has nothing to do with the EU so save the anti-European arguments for another day.

 

[sjo]

Don't kid yourself --- the whole European mobile handset business is based on a VAT carousel fraud that is about 20 billion euro a year.

You are getting cheap phones because every level of the value chain (from dealers to distributors) gets some money off this VAT carousel fraud. The distributor can sell the phones to the dealers because they are making money elsewhere (on the VAT front). Then the dealer can sell the phones to you because they are also making money elsewhere.

i have no idea what you're talking about. maybe you're implying that the european customers are better off because of this fraud you found? and this vat thingy somehow explains why the us telcoms do not offer the us customers the range of choice over mobile phones available in europe. and that's why the american consumer is better off? (just trying to summarize your argument because i really couldn't follow your line of thinking)...

 

[samab]

Obviously you think that economics is that simple. You're wrong, it's not. Again as noted above the two markets are not even the same or comparable and you're generalising to make irrelevant points. For you the discussion is no longer about the iPhone, but is about stating that is America (USA #1). You really shouldn't be on the Mac Forums talking about an iPhone, but rather some political forum.

How is it different?

US vs. the 3 largest European countries with the biggest economies with the highest GDP per capita with similar cost of living.

This isn't US vs. some developing country like India and saying India mobile tariff rates are so much cheaper. Now that's unfair.

i have no idea what you're talking about. maybe you're implying that the european customers are better off because of this fraud you found? and this vat thingy somehow explains why the us telcoms do not offer the us customers the range of choice over mobile phones available in europe. and that's why the american consumer is better off? (just trying to summarize your argument because i really couldn't follow your line of thinking)...

You are right on with your summary of my post.

VAT fraud on mobile phones is very big in Europe.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=192202262

You might say that it's a "victimless" crime because everybody hates paying taxes.

 

[AndyMulhearn]

My uneducated guess is that both T-Mobile and Apple want to recoup some of the lost turnover because of this ruling. 600 Euro is a bit steep. Ahhhhh, the capitalist system in full swing here. No-one can prevent T-Mobile to ask 999 Euro for an unlocked iPhone. I’ll just bide my time, they will not be for sale before March 2008 in my country anyway.

I'm not too sure, compared with the 1000 euro price for a new 8GB n95 at Expansys - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=158600 - the iPhone doesn't seem to do to badly.

I agree that the price overall of these devices when new to market seems a bit of a stretch, but it's not just Apple that are charging premium for new devices.

But one fact remains the same: there’s only one provider per country allowed to sell the iPhone. Still no competition, alas.

I'm not convinced the world as a whole, or the UK really, is geared up to spend £600 on a phone so for us, the subsidised contract market is the way to go. When they start knocking out 1st generation iPhones for £129.99 that changes

 

[philsuarez]

Jealousy

I am sick and tired of people Apple bashing over the iPhone. I can't believe that Vodaphone have resorted to these shoddy tactics. They bidded for the iPhone rights and lost. Get over it. These companies often have phones that only appear on one particular network. Why is everyone expecting the arrangements for iPhone to be different. Vodaphone must be running very scared. Here in the UK, I changed to O2 from Orange. Was it unfair that only O2 got to sell it. I dont think so. Apple have the right to market and sell iPhone as they like. No one forced me to buy an iPhone. I made the decision of my own free will. The iPhone is simply one of the best gadgets that I have ever owned. The whole point is its simplicity. I have had far to many gadgets over the years that whilst very advanced have been terrible to use because of the poorly designed interface. For this reason iPhone is the best. Everywhere I go people want to see it. People want it. People desire it. Vodaphone stop acting like a spoiled child because you never got a piece of the pie and yes I think the pie is very very sweet.

 

[iJawn108]

Maybe the iPhone will finally make its way to canada, as they would have had to of been legally unlocked here aswell.

 

[samab]

Maybe the iPhone will finally make its way to canada, as they would have had to of been legally unlocked here aswell.

999 euro = 1465 Canadian dollar.

 

[Faye]

I'm not too sure, compared with the 1000 euro price for a new 8GB n95 at Expansys - http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=158600 - the iPhone doesn't seem to do to badly.

Noone would pay expansys prices on product that's readily available. £400 is going rate for an N95.

I'm not convinced the world as a whole, or the UK really, is geared up to spend £600 on a phone so for us, the subsidised contract market is the way to go. When they start knocking out 1st generation iPhones for £129.99 that changes

You seem to suggest that they'll eventually be sold as PAYG phones. Somehow I think that would detract from the cachet that they are trying to give off for "premium product". If Everychav has one, then no self respecting user will want one that looks the same - no matter how whizzy it looks underneath. Remember Burberry.

The N82 launches at €400 plus tax. Much less than half this trumped up price...Not much more than the up-front cost of an iPhone. It has a 5Mpix camera, VGA 30fps video, the S60 software library, built in GPS, full bluetooth functionality, tilt sensors, HSDPA and WiFi, MMS and Multi destination SMS, 3d acceleration for Games too. You'll be able to get it on a contract for about £10 less than the iPhone per month, with more minutes, more texts, and faster/more internet... oh and no up front cost. It doesn't have the multitouch interface, but hey, I've lived with buttons so far, I can keep living with them! If I want safari, I can turn on my Mac, set it to use the phone as a modem and bingo, fast, truly mobile computing.

The iPhone in Europe is too many compromises:
up front cost: compromise
locked in to network and price plans: compromise
noddy camera: compromise (admittedly some don't care)
lack of PIM: compromise (and 3rd party may bring in Feb)
No A2DP: compromise (MUSIC PHONE!)
No BT sync: compromise
No MMS: compromise (nah, noone wants to send photos on the go)
No own-choice mp3 ringtones: compromise (yeah, please sell me the song again)
No feedback from keyboard: compromise
Fragile glass screen: compromise (ever drop your phone?)
No interchangable memory: compromise (why *does* apple sell HD iPods?)
Slow mobile internet: compromise
Least supported browser on the internet: compromise (it's ok when you have mozilla installed too)
No Flash: compromise

one, two even three perhaps, if you really love the device....Most if not all "hot" phones this christmas have only a couple of these missing features. Only the iPhone has them all. Remember it wasn't until the 3rd gen iPod that things really took off for apple. Let's hope they don't tie up too many of their market in a 18-24mo contract while they're working out the bugs.


Faye

 

[guifa]

I'm not sure what it's like where you are but in any country I've used a phone in, voicemail has cost me money to ring up a number and slowly go through the messages, before finding the one I want... at expense. Now I haven't used an iPhone, but I assume the charges have been dropped, and if they haven't, they are at least less than what they used to be because you don't have to listen to five messages before the important one you wanted to hear.

I've had SIM cards from three different countries and four different operators, and only one of them I had to pay for voicemail phone calls. With T-Mobile USA, Orange Spain, and Telefónica Spain voicemail and customer service calls are free. With O2 Ireland both voicemail and customer service calls cost money (makes me wonder what they do if you're calling about a billing issue, so you basically have to pay 5€ to fix a 3€ billing error heh, I only used the card for three days on a trip though).

 

[ben24ben]

Apple könnte in Deutschland gerade alles gewinnen... Sie könnten Nokia und Co. erhebliche Marktanteile abknöpfen und sich dauerhaft als Top-Marke platzieren - wenn, ja wenn sie das iPhone nicht sperren und mit Zwang an einen Provider binden würden.

Die Leute hier sind "heiß" nach einer neuen Art von Telefon wie dem iPhone. Es könnte hier so ein Erfolg werden wie der iPod - aber nur, wenn es dauerhsft ohne Sim-Lock zu einem günstigen Preisverkauft wird.

Apple hat vielleicht ein, zwei Jahre Zeit - dann werden ähnliche, vielleicht sogar besser ausgestattete Geräte - und sei es nur ein HTC Touch mit Googles Android - auf dem Markt sein. Ich hoffe, sie nutzen die Chance.*


*geschrieben auf meinem iPhone

 

[paulo999]

As a point of note for certain posters, there is no 'European' law relating to the required sale of unlocked phones.

Some EU countries work in a similar way to the US (such as the UK), some don't.

In the same way that Californian state law is not the same as Federal law, French (or German) law is not the same as EU law. And EU law is more, in effect, voluntary by state. Whereas US Federal law is mandate.

 

[EagerDragon]

You have got to be joking. Everyone knows the Nokia N95 with 5 Megapixel sensor, auto-focus and real glass Carl Zeiss optics takes much better pictures, and DVD quality video to boot.

Only people who pay that much attention to the N95 would know and some would not care. As you probably know the iPhone has this force field that makes most people ignore a lot of stuff. I am well within the force field, not interested in the least as to how good the N95 is. I, like many others are mesmerized and only care for the iPhone as our next phone.

 

[EagerDragon]

Think about:

They want to prevent selling the iPhone without a contract, but they have to do it because of the preliminary injunction. Then it's clear they sell it at a much higher price, to like I said "prevent" it.

I would do the same to prevent selling unlocked iPhones. They just thinking profitable.

If you have problems with it, go and buy one for Euro 399.- and hack it. No one said you need to activate it through iTunes with a Contract of T-Mobile. No need to worry about legality, at least here in Switzerland its legitimate to Unlock a Phone which you own and iThink in Germany is it like this as well.

iLaugh about this discussion here

Could not possibly be any more clear. This is it people.

 

[AlexisV]

I won't buy an iPhone because it's too expensive. I also don't want a contract, so I'd be looking at £175, pay as you go, before I would consider the phone.

However, personally I don't see the problem in selling a phone for £xx with a contract for £xx. If I buy a Sky satellite TV box, if I don't pay my monthly fee I don't get Sky and a useless box. There's nothing particularly wrong with that - I knew the deal when I signed up.

Which why I'm puzzled why they should be forced to sell an unlocked device.

The only thing to to in this situation would be to sell at a prohibitive price (999 Euros), which is what they've done, or withdraw from Germany and sever their T-Mobile deal. I'm sure the lawyers have prepared for the current situation.

 

[mustgroove]

I think people are missing one of the big implications of pre-unlocked phones being sold at retail... hopefully the anysim and simfree teams can get a hold on one and make their unlocks identical to (and indistinguishable from) the 'real' and 'proper' unlocks that Apple themselves are doing...

 

[EagerDragon]

In France, the iPhone isn't exclusively tied to one network. Apple have to comply with local laws ( like they've done in France ), and the local law courts, or not at all. Primarily, its not Apple's call.

LOL, while you are right the time is a little off, now the iPhone does not exist in France, on Nov 29 it will be available in unlocked form.

Maybe you know .... Is it going to also be available in locked form for those not willing to sell their first born to get it?

 

[paulo999]

Forcing an unbundled sale forces transparency. The iPhone is as much an an expensive phone as it is exceptional. People can now make an informed decision much more easily.

 

[EagerDragon]

Apple chose to sell the iphone at a lower price in the US and AT&T chose to sell the iphone monthly plan at a lower price in the US.

Apple chose to sell the iphone at a higher price in Europe and O2/T-Mobile (and soon Orange) chose to sell iphone monthly plan at a higher price in Europe.

Which side of the Atlantic are the consumers better off?

Correct, however don't forget the VAT, I understand that that tax is significant and as such does not help to keep the price down.

 

[Jarcrew]

The plan's not that much better in the US, you pay for incoming calls over there, don't you?

Plus, I know which side of the Atlantic I'd rather be in general. I'd far sooner pay Apple's premiums and the tax than live in America.

 

[Eric Lewis]

wow...once again


these unlocked iPhones on ebay will go up again in price! crazy

 

[DeathChill]

All phones have a heavy subsidy from the service providers, with the iPhone, Apple were also getting some of the revenue. The iPhone is seen as an ongoing earner as well as the initial purchase value.
Therefore €600 is what they see as their lost revenue from each phone.
Whatever sim you then put in the phone will deliver revenue to the network and not to Apple.

The iPhone is not subsidized and is already profitable on each unit sold, with the estimate being that each iPhone cost around $234 to produce (materials wise), where as they retail for $399.

 

[samab]

The plan's not that much better in the US, you pay for incoming calls over there, don't you?

Plus, I know which side of the Atlantic I'd rather be in general. I'd far sooner pay Apple's premiums and the tax than live in America.

Yes, the US plan does charge for incoming calls. But the US plan also have unlimited mobile-to-mobile, unlimited nights and weekends and rollover of your unused daytime minutes.

 

[NicP]

And this is how American consumer protection laws operate.

Which is why they dont work