iPhone without Contract in Germany? - 999€ UPDATE: Confirmed + 600€ for an unlock!

[chicagostars]

Would you all like some cheese with your whine?

If you want an IPhone, go with ATT/T-Mobile/Orange or whatever, if you don't like ATT/T-Mobile/Orange don't get the IPhone.

I really want a million dollars.

Seriously, is not your b!tch

Seriously, remember that last line. It's crazy to hear so much vitriol and fuming regarding the iPhone. Do any of the loudest complainers here scream and moan as much about other matters in their lives?

 

[Rot'nApple]

Another american I presume.

Contrary to what americans seem to believe companies do *not* have an automatic right to profit if that harms consumers or society in general. Regulations are absolutely necessary to keep them in line.

No presumption here - I am American.

What, pray tell, is harming consumers or society in general!???? Please explain.

Here's a bit of news folks, it's a phone, plain and simple.

And it is not the first phone or only phone but one phone amongst many others from a host of manufacturers that come in all price ranges and phone functionality.

The only gripe is that you have to be tied into a 2 year agreement. Yeah, it's a contract. There are other businesses that offer contracts between businesses and consumers in one form or another like airline tickets or magazine subscriptions, etc. Are they not valid? I wonder what the German courts have to say about that.

Apple or T-Mobile is not forcing consumers to buy a iphone or lock into a two year contract unless the buyer agrees to the those terms, otherwise they can buy a different phone that has doesn't require a two year contract, so again I ask, what is harming consumers or society in general. The courts may be able to enforce a law that states phones must be sold unlocked but they cannot regulate the sale price or can they? I thought Germany was some sort of democracy and I thoought they done away with the communist way of doing things.

 

[nja247]

No, it is not crazy.

The only crazy thing is the European "anti-trust" laws and various other "consumer protection" laws.

This is like Europe "forcing" Microsoft to sell a windows xp version without the media player --- a completely useless legal exercise. How many units of that crippled xp version were sold? A few hundred.

Wow, just wow. Why is it crazy for it to be illegal to force someone to sign a contract to buy a product? Blah blah blah... don't buy it then, but that is a flawed way of thinking.

Your laws aren't necessarily better than Germany's laws. Either buy the phone on contract in Germany (like you do in the States), OR don't get it on contract and pay more for it. How is this a bad thing? It allows the consumer to decide and doesn't hurt anyone at all, and for world travellers it's much better as they can chose what service and SIM to use. What is crazy is how American's get angry when a law limits what a company can do and gives the consumer more options, whether they'll take advantage of that option or not. Do me a favour and run done to your Apple store and ask for an unlocked phone.

But if you look at the bottom line. The American iphone is cheaper, the American iphone monthly plan is cheaper and AT&T/T-Mobile both give out unlocking codes (except the iphone of course) after 90 days for free.

Then you look at the other side of the Atlantic. The European iphone is more expensive, the European iphone monthly plan is more expensive and various European "consumer protection" laws across various European countries allow European carriers to charge money for unlocking codes.

Show me one AT&T customer who's had their iPhone unlocked. Compare that with any German iPhone user on contract who can ask for their iPhone to be unlocked free of charge since the 19th.

Most mobile carriers unlock phones for free here as well. A majority come SIM unlocked out of the box and it's not necessary to seek an unlock.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but you sound ignorant and I want to know where you get your information?

 

[samab]

Wow, just wow. Why is it crazy for it to be illegal to force someone to sign a contract to buy a product? Blah blah blah... don't buy it then, but that is a flawed way of thinking.

Your laws aren't necessarily better than Germany's laws. Either buy the phone on contract in Germany (like you do in the States), OR don't get it on contract and pay more for it. How is this a bad thing? It allows the consumer to decide and doesn't hurt anyone at all, and for world travellers it's much better as they can chose what service and SIM to use. What is crazy is how American's get angry when a law limits what a company can do and gives the consumer more options, whether they'll take advantage of that option or not. Do me a favour and run done to your Apple store and ask for an unlocked phone.

No, it just happens that the American iphone is cheaper than the European iphone. The American iphone monthly plan is cheaper than the European iphone monthly plan. Plus the fact that (except for the iphone) both AT&T and T-Mobile USA offer unlocking codes for FREE after 90 days.

So somehow Europe with all sorts of anti-trust laws, simlocking laws, and consumer protection laws --- you end up with a more expensive phone, more expensive plan and the privilege of paying for an unlocking code.

Show me one AT&T customer who's had their iPhone unlocked. Compare that with any German iPhone user on contract who can ask for their iPhone to be unlocked free of charge since the 19th.

Most mobile carriers unlock phones for free here as well. A majority come SIM unlocked out of the box and it's not necessary to seek an unlock.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but you sound ignorant and I want to know where you get your information?

Show me a single O2 customer that had their iphone unlocked. O2 is saying that even when your contract is finished, they are not going to unlock your iphone. At the very least, we have AT&T executives saying (in various newspaper interviews) that they will offer unlocking codes at the end of contract.

 

[nja247]

You are missing the point. Apple doesn't want to sell unlocked iPhones for €999. Apple doesn't want to sell unlocked iPhones at all. If not one single person buys at that price then they set the price exactly right.

Can you prove this with any statement of fact?

 

[Archie-]

Don't trust the specs bro. Higher megapixel doesn't mean better picture quality. I looked at reviews of the N95 and compared pictures taken with both phones. The iphone has more clarity and better colour reproduction. I'd be willing to bet the iphone uses the same isight camera on the macs and i know they're capable of good quality as long as lighting a movement are kept in check.

Here's 3 pictures of the same scene, from a normal canon camera, iPhone and n95.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9624917@N08/687850591/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9624917@N08/687850641/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9624917@N08/687850757/

While the N95 has problems with colour accuracy, it has much better clarity and focus, whereas the iPhone pictures are a blurred mess (see even the large type on the iPhone box). Colour can easily be corrected in photoshop, but you cant fix focus problems or lack of resolution.

 

[samab]

Can you prove this with any statement of fact?

Just look at how Microsoft manages to sell a few hundred copies of the special version of windows xp without the media player because the European Commission on Competition "won" the legal fight after 5 years of lawsuits.

How did that exercise improve European consumer rights?

 

[mdriftmeyer]

All phones have a heavy subsidy from the service providers, with the iPhone, Apple were also getting some of the revenue. The iPhone is seen as an ongoing earner as well as the initial purchase value.
Therefore €600 is what they see as their lost revenue from each phone.
Whatever sim you then put in the phone will deliver revenue to the network and not to Apple.

Horse crap.

This isn't Apple jacking the price up.

It's T-Mobile. There was nothing in the order that required them to sell it at the same price before the court order.

 

[McKs]

No, it just happens that the American iphone is cheaper than the European iphone. The American iphone monthly plan is cheaper than the European iphone monthly plan. Plus the fact that (except for the iphone) both AT&T and T-Mobile USA offer unlocking codes for FREE after 90 days.

So somehow Europe with all sorts of anti-trust laws, simlocking laws, and consumer protection laws --- you end up with a more expensive phone, more expensive plan and the privilege of paying for an unlocking code.

you forgot to mention we also have a working health care system...

 

[nja247]

No, it just happens that the American iphone is cheaper than the European iphone. The American iphone monthly plan is cheaper than the European iphone monthly plan. Plus the fact that (except for the iphone) both AT&T and T-Mobile USA offer unlocking codes for FREE after 90 days.

So somehow Europe with all sorts of anti-trust laws, simlocking laws, and consumer protection laws --- you end up with a more expensive phone, more expensive plan and the privilege of paying for an unlocking code.

You cannot compare the mobile market of North America to Europe as they are two completely different markets and price comparing them is irrelevant.

Further, Europe doesn't have anti-trust laws, but it does have Competition laws. If you read this case at all you'd realise that this decision has absolutely nothing at all to do with Competition law, or EU law, but rather German local law. Also the iphone will be unlocked whether you buy a contract or not, just if you choose the latter option you will have to pay more. Do you have that option? No.

 

[slicecom]

Can you prove this with any statement of fact?

The fact that they only decided to sell one after competition took legal action against them, or that they priced it so astronomically high that it is completely undesirable by the masses are two statements of fact.

 

[nja247]

Show me a single O2 customer that had their iphone unlocked. O2 is saying that even when your contract is finished, they are not going to unlock your iphone. At the very least, we have AT&T executives saying (in various newspaper interviews) that they will offer unlocking codes at the end of contract.

You have your facts wrong and are intent on spewing anti-European rubbish. This has nothing to do with EU law! Which is why O2 UK isn't affected. It's a German law issue. No reason to mention the UK. What O2 UK does or doesn't do is irrelevant.

If your phone lasts for the entirety of your contract then I'm glad AT&T will comply with US law and unlock the phone for you.

 

[elppa]

Or Maybe not

Apple obviously knows they have a great product with the iPhone, but I fear greed is going to do them in, in the end. I hope we will not see a repeat of the Mac, which was ahead of everybody back in 1984, but priced out of reach for most people, and has always remained a small niche.

And then basically the same thing happened at NeXT, which was again a decade ahead of everybody, but went nowhere because of the low low minimum entrance fee of $10,000.[/QUOTE]

Apple forced NeXT not compete in the same markets (due to disagreements over staff NeXT had pinched from Apple), hence NeXT's hardware was always expensive.

The fact the price has been reduced already shows the same mistakes are unlikely to be made again. Interesting comparisons though. It's good when someone brings a little historical perspective to the table.

We also know that we have another 2-3 years (at least) on other companies and networks marketing iPhone alternatives before they actually come up with something similar.

lol. What changes. Make O2 install a slower network? The massively overhyped visual voicemail app?

Other phones already *have* all the features of the iphone, and more. They have done for years. Not in as pretty a package (apple are good at making things look pretty) but they've been there.

Other phones need to catch up on the UI stakes - install larger screens, for a start. but the basic techincal features are already there.

Just to clarify, when you say "technical features" you mean "features you can market (MMS, GPS, 5MP Camera)".

When you actually look at "technical features" from a much lower, OS level, then your pretence that “ Other phones already *have* all the features of the iphone, and more. They have done for years” is actually a load of cobblers.

MS only shipped a modern graphical compositing layer for Vista this year, so goodness knows when this will make it to a phone. Meanwhile, today, Apple already has Quartz on iPhone. Advanced OO frameworks like Cocoa on another device? Forget it.

Of course, none of this stuff is really talked about (possibly because Journalists don't really understand?), but it is the reason Apple can create a great user experience on a phone and other manufacturers can't.

 

[samab]

You cannot compare the mobile market of North America to Europe as they are two completely different markets and price comparing them is irrelevant.

Further, Europe doesn't have anti-trust laws, but it does have Competition laws. If you read this case at all you'd realise that this decision has absolutely nothing at all to do with Competition law, or EU law, but rather German local law. Also the iphone will be unlocked whether you buy a contract or not, just if you choose the latter option you will have to pay more. Do you have that option? No.

So Europeans have an extra option that will end up selling a few hundred copies of the unlocked iphone at 999 euro. A completely useless option much like how Europeans have an option to buy windows xp without the media player.

I don't see how irrelevant it is to compare the iphone hardware price and monthly plans across US, UK, Germany and France.

 

[MacBoySeattle]

Lol you all can defend, rationalize, and theorize all you want. The seeds are in place. Within 2 years, every country will have laws that simply state that all phones must be sold unlocked. PERIOD. END OF STORY. Apple has just caused this process to speed up a little, so I thank them for their stupidity and their little toy phone.

 

[tutubibi]

For the $1100 price difference between the iPod touch and the iPhone you get:

1. Modem
2. Bluetooth
3. Microphone
4. Camera
5. Some apps

...

Well, $1500 price just shows that iPhone is probably discounted at the current price and Apple is recovering a lot of cost via kick-backs from operators.

 

[paulo999]

Bundling masks the price of the component parts, and makes like for like price comparison more difficult.

 

[SFC Archer]

Not that it will ever happen because of the contractual agreement with T-Mobile...But I would just LOVE to see Apple pull their product from the German market since they do not want to conform to a product that was made to work and function a specific way.

This is NOT Burger King and you can NOT always "Get it your way"!

The iPhone was created to be locked to a specific carrier...does not matter weather you like it or not, that is how it was made to be.

Boy or boy would you hear some whinin and screamin then...Apple's not fair, they took away the iPhone...boo hoo!

But of coarse then you wouldnt be able to create new controlling laws to insure that companies couldn't sell their products as intendended.

Either accept it for what it is and enjoy it the way it was made to be used or go purchase another product that you can whine about it not having this or that.

Wow...it is so amazing how one product can cause so much controversy just because it isnt perfect for that specific individual...just amazing!

 

[MacBoySeattle]

Well, $1500 price just shows that iPhone is probably discounted at the current price and Apple is recovering a lot of cost via kick-backs from operators.

The component costs of the iphone aren't anywhere near the cost. The technology in that little EDGE Quad band GSM phone have been around for 3 years. It's not even 3G. Every $29 phone has quad band and EDGE these days. The price of 8GBs of flash ram drops every day.

 

[paulo999]

Well, $1500 price just shows that iPhone is probably discounted at the current price and Apple is recovering a lot of cost via kick-backs from operators.

yes, with one alteration: recovering profit. Which is fine. It's now transparent to the buyer. Whether the 999 price is 'fair' is a seperate issue, but the fact that is now visible to buyers is a key thing.

 

[MacBoySeattle]

yes, with one alteration: recovering profit. Which is fine. It's now transparent to the buyer. Whether the 999 price is 'fair' is a seperate issue, but the fact that is now visible to buyers is a key thing.

Heh they can take their 999 and shove it up their you-know-what. I'll buy a regular iPhone and unlock it.

 

[GFLPraxis]

I'm curious if this unlock is in the hardware or software; if software we could probably port it over to existing iPhones!

 

[MacBoySeattle]

I'm curious if this unlock is in the hardware or software; if software we could probably port it over to existing iPhones!

Oh it's coming, trust me. Somebody's going to reverse engineer the unlocked stock iPhone and find an easy way to port everything over. The game's over Apple. You lost.

 

[paulo999]

The component costs of the iphone aren't anywhere near the cost. The technology in that little EDGE Quad band GSM phone have been around for 3 years. It's not even 3G. Every $29 phone has quad band and EDGE these days. The price of 8GBs of flash ram drops every day.

component cost does not dictate market price. Cocaine is grown for $300 per kilo. Not much different from other crops, but sells for $50k per kilo to the consumer. So why is flour so much cheaper?

Heh they can take their 999 and shove it up their you-know-what. I'll buy a regular iPhone and unlock it.

and indeed, some 15%+ of buyers make that choice.

 

[ts1973]

Here's a bit of news folks, it's a phone, plain and simple.

And it is not the first phone or only phone but one phone amongst many others from a host of manufacturers that come in all price ranges and phone functionality.

...

Apple or T-Mobile is not forcing consumers to buy a iphone or lock into a two year contract unless the buyer agrees to the those terms, otherwise they can buy a different phone that has doesn't require a two year contract, so again I ask, what is harming consumers or society in general. The courts may be able to enforce a law that states phones must be sold unlocked but they cannot regulate the sale price or can they? I thought Germany was some sort of democracy and I thoought they done away with the communist way of doing things.

Two things : first of all you're right say that we shouldn't moan : if you don't like the deal, don't bite. That's exactly what I did : I wanted an iphone, still think it is great, but I cannot for the peace of my own mind pay that much for merely a phone (with a contract). So I didn't and got another brand. I do reserve myself the right though not to like Apple for it. I think they putting up a greed show here, and that's not what I like to see in any company.

The other thing is local law. Apple does not stand above the law, though sometimes I've got a feeling they think they are (remember the iphone name ?). European law seems to protect the consumer more than American law, and still Apple thinks it can go to work exactly alike in Europe as in the US. Now, I firmly believe that Apple has thought their EU business plan through completely, and they'll probably have all the bases covered, but still European companies wil try to invoke consumer law to stop Apple from locking their phones to single carriers. Maybe EU government will follow, maybe not. In some countries, including my own, locking phones with a carrier is prohibited. I've always stated that Apple would simply not be selling iphones in Belgium, or we will have to pay dearly to get it (so i got another phone after a while). I was right, but I can already tell you that not many iphones will be sold in Belgium at this price (now, before anyone jumps at this : I too think the current price is just a "wait and see" approach until the judge decides). There is of course a third possibility : only offer the iphone in the "difficult" countries when it has brought in enough money for AAPL, in the fall of 2008 or so Regardless, it's greed at work again, and sorry folks, this does not look nice on Apple.