iPhone without Contract in Germany? - 999€ UPDATE: Confirmed + 600€ for an unlock!

[riverfreak]

The iphones wifi handling is good enough that it really doesn't matter.. you're likely to have wifi at your workplace and at home anyway. Only matters when you're out and about.

Where I live, free wireless is ubiquitous.

Not so in, say, Germany, where it appears that T-Mobile has a virtual stranglehold on hot spots. It's nearly impossible to find free access and T-Mobile charges ridiculous per unit time rates for accessing their hot spots.

 

[Sijmen]

Where I live, free wireless is ubiquitous.

Not so in, say, Germany, where it appears that T-Mobile has a virtual stranglehold on hot spots. It's nearly impossible to find free access and T-Mobile charges ridiculous per unit time rates for accessing their hot spots.

Where you do live? Here in the Netherlands there are paid hotspots all over the place.

 

[cameronjpu]

Two things : first of all you're right say that we shouldn't moan : if you don't like the deal, don't bite. That's exactly what I did : I wanted an iphone, still think it is great, but I cannot for the peace of my own mind pay that much for merely a phone (with a contract). So I didn't and got another brand. I do reserve myself the right though not to like Apple for it. I think they putting up a greed show here, and that's not what I like to see in any company.

The other thing is local law. Apple does not stand above the law, though sometimes I've got a feeling they think they are (remember the iphone name ?).

Great example! I laughed and laughed and laughed when Apple, on launch day, had to pull down all their banners and put up handwritten posters, and change the name to ApplePhone! So funny! Great example!

 

[Virgil-TB2]

... ppl who bought their phones up until Nov. 19th, or since today, get their phones unlocked at 600 euros, but if you bought within those 2 days where the policy was being decided whilst the injunction was already out, you get it unlocked for free? Cos that'd be a stroke of good luck...

Not many people see this but I think this is really the most interesting aspect of the announcement.

As you say, selling an unlocked iPhone for an exorbitant price is nothing new at all.

Distributing a "patch" to iPhone's German customers that (presumably), will unlock a previously locked iPhone permanently and make it remain unlocked throughout all the updates is much more interesting.

Reverse engineering or wide distribution of that patch might actually be the Holy Grail of iPhone unlocking.

 

[mccldwll]

That new technology being visual voice mail? Because as I understand it T-Mobile already had an EDGE network.

Apple is simply charging what they think the market will bear, but they have been wrong before, and they may be again. A fair price would be around €450 to €500, not more than double that.

No. New technology in general, which in the case of the iPhone is the entire package with an optimized EDGE network. My best guess is that the iPhone will not work quite as seamlessly on networks which haven't been tweaked. AT&T spent/continues to spend a pile of $$$ on network upgrades. And if network isn't optimized, iPhone isn't the same.

Who says that's a fair market price? You? Think of the iPhone as a $300 iPod Touch (which is flying off the shelf) plus a phone/voice mail/camera/EDGE web access. All that extra for $100 initial cost, and in your example $3-6/month. Give me a %*&#@*g break! Apple is committed to 2 years of upgrades/system support for which it is probably receiving much of the $20/month that is paid in the US for the data addition. That seems reasonable. I have no problem paying 60 cents/day over basic phone service for a pocket computer, with voicemail. And, again, DT also is entitled to $/month for it's initial outlays/obligations and expected return, which are based on a certain # of units sold, and have to be amortized. Now, if there was a way that the estimated roughly $20/month DT payment to Apple could be transferred to the other carriers for the unlocked phone, or to the purchaser, fine. But 60 cents/day to Apple for the support/upgrades is more than reasonable. You may not like it, but it's certainly fair.

 

[Virgil-TB2]

*is* a violation of European law

Nah, I don't think there will be meritorious lawsuit, as this is simple supply and demand economics at play. If you really want a new one, you pay the price. To think that one can sue because he/she does not like the price of a product is complete nonsense.

Again the simple law and demand effect will work to lower the price over time.

If you sue over this issue, you really need some help.

I think you are wrong about this.

The European law that requires unlocked phones is a "decoupling" law. The point of it is that a consumer should not be forced to buy a contract when they buy a phone. The idea instead is that they should have the option of buying the phone separately and then seeking another carrier if they so choose.

Obviously if the iPhone was ludicrously expensive relative to the original (and some say this price is already that), then the company is not really offering the consumer a fair choice. European consumer law is very big on being fair to the customer unlike the United States where the company can basically do whatever the hell it wants.

It can easily be argued by any competent lawyer that if the price for the unlocked iPhone is too high then the consumer is effectively not being given a choice.

Additionally, the argument that the extra money being charged is just the money Apple *would* have made with the contract is also deficient. The purpose of the law is specifically to uncouple the price of the hardware from the price of the contract. To argue that the price of the unlocked hardware is higher to offset the loss of the contract (which it very obviously is), works better as an argument for those that want to buy an unlocked iPhone. This is almost the same as Deutsche Telecom admitting that they are breaking the law.

Pricing the unlocked iPhone higher to offset the loss of the contract revenue is definitely a direct violation in spirit (and possibly in fact), of the relevant law. No question at all.

 

[Sijmen]

You're saying that paying € 600 or so for a few fixes and new features is okay?

Say, how do you like on the new... uhm.. languages on your iPhone? Great value for the 60 cents/day since you've got it.

edit: that was about the post before Virgíl's

 

[Archie-]

No. New technology in general, which in the case of the iPhone is the entire package with an optimized EDGE network. My best guess is that the iPhone will not work quite as seamlessly on networks which haven't been tweaked. AT&T spent/continues to spend a pile of $$$ on network upgrades. And if network isn't optimized, iPhone isn't the same.

There are hundreds of 1000's of iPhones on the other GSM networks. We KNOW the only thing missing is visual voice mail.

Who says that's a fair market price? You? Think of the iPhone as a $300 iPod Touch (which is flying off the shelf) plus a phone/voice mail/camera/EDGE web access. All that extra for $100 initial cost, and in your example $3-6/month. Give me a %*&#@*g break!

I said a fair price for an unlocked iPhone should be no more than $700. Thats your ipod touch + $400 for the phone and warranty and support and updates. Thats a lot of money for a 2.5G phone, and looking at the pace of updates Apple has not even done enough to justify even that price for their precious support.

Apple is committed to 2 years of upgrades/system support for which it is probably receiving much of the $20/month that is paid in the US for the data addition. That seems reasonable. I have no problem paying 60 cents/day over basic phone service for a pocket computer, with voicemail. And, again, DT also is entitled to $/month for it's initial outlays/obligations and expected return, which are based on a certain # of units sold, and have to be amortized. Now, if there was a way that the estimated roughly $20/month DT payment to Apple could be transferred to the other carriers for the unlocked phone, or to the purchaser, fine. But 60 cents/day to Apple for the support/upgrades is more than reasonable. You may not like it, but it's certainly fair.

Apple wants to be paid for 2 years of upgrades, mainly to add things which should have been there before it even launched? Other companies also update their software, but dont expect continuing revenue. Nokia has for example done a few firmware upgrades for the N95. Many devices on AT&T received upgrades from Windows Mobile 5 to 6. Blackberry users are expecting an upgrade to OS 4.3, which will add video recording functionality soon. Sidekick owners are getting file viewing functionality added to their phones - all for FREE. Just like the ring tones, Apple are forcing people to pay for things they should be getting for free.

 

[samab]

For the moment, court is requiring DT to sell iPhone for use off the network. Apple still required to support/upgrade each phone (as per contract with DT) and still contractually entitled to $/month for that, regardless of what network it's used on (as opposed to illegally unlocked/hacked phones).

You can read both the Apple's and AT&T's quarterly earnings conference phone calls --- Apple will only receive the revenue share from AT&T if the iphones are specifically connected to AT&T.

If the deal is similar in Europe as in the US --- then apple will not get revenue share from those iphones that are not on DT/TMO's network.

 

[gifford]

Since you like the US so much I'll give you the typical US approach to that comment and suggest you move out of the wonderful socialist Europe and don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

gladly, san diego here i come. if only the us would give me citizenship, and my girlfriend wasnt so attached to here family, i would be there.
90% of my friends are 'socialists' and i woud be quite glad to see the back of them!
I find europeans arrogance draining to listen to, the laws border on insanity , not to mention people are mostly darn right rude, whereas the US can be a bit dim when it comes to being worldy wise, but generally a friendly bunch that I feel more comfortable to be with.
Sorry this has gone completely OT.

 

[colonelbutt]

gladly, san diego here i come. if only the us would give me citizenship, and my girlfriend wasnt so attached to here family, i would be there.
90% of my friends are 'socialists' and i woud be quite glad to see the back of them!

LOL

EU is so f****d

hopefully the UK will have the guts to pull out before the whole pack of rotten cards caves in .......

 

[RayCon]

This goes way beyond Apple

This whole rigamarole goes way beyond Apple. It portends changes to come in the cell phone industry. I believe that eventually cell phones will no longer be locked anywhere, as the courts will no longer permit it. In the future, people will refer to the "iPhone Decision," the turning point that changed the cell phone industry forever.

 

[samab]

Obviously if the iPhone was ludicrously expensive relative to the original (and some say this price is already that), then the company is not really offering the consumer a fair choice. European consumer law is very big on being fair to the customer unlike the United States where the company can basically do whatever the hell it wants.

I don't see how 999 euro is not a reasonable price at all.

Some French supermarket sold out their grey market hacked up unauthorized unlocked iphones without a valid apple warranty --- for 999 euro.

I would think that the carriers should be able to charge 1200 euro for a properly unlocked iphone with geniune apple warranty.

 

[Stella]

This whole rigamarole goes way beyond Apple. It portends changes to come in the cell phone industry. I believe that eventually cell phones will no longer be locked anywhere, as the courts will no longer permit it. In the future, people will refer to the "iPhone Decision," the turning point that changed the cell phone industry forever.

That is what is so worrying. I'd hate to see phones being sold the way Apple is selling the iPhone, the current system of choosing your phone and your contract is far consumer friendly than choosing your phone based upon the network and a limited choice of contracts.

 

[Sijmen]

I don't see how 999 euro is not a reasonable price at all.

Some French supermarket sold out their grey market hacked up unauthorized unlocked iphones without a valid apple warranty --- for 999 euro.

I would think that the carriers should be able to charge 1200 euro for a properly unlocked iphone with geniune apple warranty.

Look at the features. Now look at the price. Don't you think € 1,200 (that's $ 1,720) is a bit over the top?

 

[samab]

This whole rigamarole goes way beyond Apple. It portends changes to come in the cell phone industry. I believe that eventually cell phones will no longer be locked anywhere, as the courts will no longer permit it. In the future, people will refer to the "iPhone Decision," the turning point that changed the cell phone industry forever.

Except the trend has been the exact opposite --- more and more countries that formerly disallowed simlocking are loosening their laws to allow simlocking.

Italy didn't have simlocking until Hutchison 3 Italia entered the Italian mobile market. Finland finally allowed simlocking on 3G phones last year. South Korea had reversed their policy to allow simlocking/handset subsidies a couple of years ago.

 

[Archie-]

This whole rigamarole goes way beyond Apple. It portends changes to come in the cell phone industry. I believe that eventually cell phones will no longer be locked anywhere, as the courts will no longer permit it. In the future, people will refer to the "iPhone Decision," the turning point that changed the cell phone industry forever.

The rules have already been made. Apple is trying to flout them.

I dont think people understand that is most of Europe most phones are sold without contract.

Worldwide, the cell phone market is split about 50-50 between phones sold through carriers and phones sold through other channels directly to consumers, says Lin. In Asia, about 80 percent of cell phones are sold independently of a carrier. And in Europe, roughly 70 percent of cell phones are sold unlocked. But in the U.S., between 90 percent and 95 percent of cell phones are sold through a mobile service provider.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6152735.html

People do not seem to understand this, or understand how unusual, foreign and restrictive the model is that Apple is trying to impose.

Apple is trying to cause a revolution, but in completely the wrong direction. For shame.

 

[samab]

Look at the features. Now look at the price. Don't you think € 1,200 (that's $ 1,720) is a bit over the top?

Price is determined by supply and demand.

There were plenty of idiots buying the 999 euro iphone from the French supermarket --- that's without a valid warranty, with no way to update the software without ibricking the iphone.

The rules have already been made. Apple is trying to flout them.

No, the rules are so waterdowned that they are practically useless.

In fact, without the layers and layers of these useless rules and regulations --- the American version of the iphone is cheaper in hardware and monthly plans.

People do not seem to understand this, or understand how unusual, foreign and restrictive the model is that Apple is trying to impose.

Apple is trying to cause a revolution, but in completely the wrong direction. For shame.

No, the direction has already been set by the likes of Nokia when Nokia bought their own online music store (Loudeye).

In the future, you are going to buy a unlocked and unbranded Nokia phone --- and the phone will point you to buy ringtones from Nokia, buy games from N-Gage,....

So instead of the carriers walled garden, you are going to face another set of walled garden by Nokia.

 

[colonelbutt]

The rules have already been made. Apple is trying to flout them.

I dont think people understand that is most of Europe most phones are sold without contract.


http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6152735.html

People do not seem to understand this, or understand how unusual, foreign and restrictive the model is that Apple is trying to impose.

Apple is trying to cause a revolution, but in completely the wrong direction. For shame.

I don't know where those statistics come from
in the UK most phones are sold with a supplier and most are locked

A contract is a contract. If I sign a contract where I give two apples and get three bananas there is nothing wrong with that. as long as the contract is legal and there is due consideration.

i repeat, apple can do what they like and so can tmobile. its a case of supply and demand. if no one buys they will need to alter their strategy. thats what the freemarket is about.

i can't stand the european attitude to layer everything with legislation and rules to try and impose some ideological order.

 

[Archie-]

No, the direction has already been set by the likes of Nokia when Nokia bought their own online music store (Loudeye).

In the future, you are going to buy a unlocked and unbranded Nokia phone --- and the phone will point you to buy ringtones from Nokia, buy games from N-Gage,....

So instead of the carriers walled garden, you are going to face another set of walled garden by Nokia.

There is a difference in being pointed to a site and being forced to use it. For example all Nokia phones support PlaysforSure, so you could use your Rhapsody and Napster subscription music just fine, and ignore Nokia's Ovi. Also the better phones are smartphones, and support music stores like the ill-fated allofmp3 mobile store that was coded for symbian.

If amazon was to make a mobile friendly mp3 webstore there would be no issue of it working, pointers or not.

 

[samab]

There is a difference in being pointed to a site and being forced to use it. For example all Nokia phones support PlaysforSure, so you could use your Rhapsody and Napster subscription music just fine, and ignore Nokia's Ovi.

If they support playsforsure, then Nokia paying their business partners some money (or getting paid by those business partners).

So in the end, you can only get apps and services from Nokia or Nokia business partners.

 

[Otaviano]

No mention of the MacBytes article about France?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the MacBytes article from today about the prices in of iPhone plans in France.

The article states Orange will unlock the iPhone for free after 6 months. However they will unlock it immediately for a 100€.

What's to stop German's from purchasing an iPhone from France? €399 + €100 unlocking fee + shipping is better than the ridiculous €999 fee. It's actually a pretty fair price for an unlocked iPhone.

Apple dropped the ball on this iPhone in Europe. It was probably the best market for them to try capitalize on. They dropped the ball big time.

 

[gifford]

LOL

EU is so f****d

hopefully the UK will have the guts to pull out before the whole pack of rotten cards caves in .......

With any luck!

 

[mr.suff]

€999 is completely unreasonable. First off the mobile networks that have the iPhone do so without subsidizing it, the €399 is the unlocked price.
The only thing that ties the iphone to a network is the dependent features such as visual voicemail.
The sim card that comes in the iPhone is no different to any other, what is different is that the activation process locks the iPhone to that card.
So basically the extra €600 is to apple to unlock it themselves. Which by all accounts is ridiculous.

 

[Sijmen]

This whole crazy vendor lock thing is making me want to build my own PC (with a dedicated graphics card), install Linux, and buy a phone, install Android. But that PC wouldn't be nearly as useful as my current Mac

I'd vote for more restricting decoupling laws here in the Netherlands, or the whole EU for that matter. Forbid coupling of phones and contracts altogether - not just a non-contract version, but no contract-version phone at all.