iPhone without Contract in Germany? - 999€ UPDATE: Confirmed + 600€ for an unlock!

[colonelbutt]

This whole crazy vendor lock thing is making me want to build my own PC (with a dedicated graphics card), install Linux, and buy a phone, install Android. But that PC wouldn't be nearly as useful as my current Mac

I'd vote for more restricting decoupling laws here in the Netherlands, or the whole EU for that matter. Forbid coupling of phones and contracts altogether - not just a non-contract version, but no contract-version phone at all.

I think we should have a law that all EU citizens should wear their underpants/panties on the outside of their trousers/skirts.

then we can tell who is washing their butt.

alternatively we can not legislate anything, save loads of money, and find out if the market thinks that underwear on the outside of your clothes is a good idea!

[sorry about my posts in this thread, I just find it so ridiculous that no one understands competitive business economics (apologies to those that do]

 

[samab]

What's to stop German's from purchasing an iPhone from France? €399 + €100 unlocking fee + shipping is better than the ridiculous €999 fee. It's actually a pretty fair price for an unlocked iPhone.

You are still stucked with a 2 year contract with Orange France.

 

[khunsanook]

The rules have already been made. Apple is trying to flout them.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6152735.html

People do not seem to understand this, or understand how unusual, foreign and restrictive the model is that Apple is trying to impose.

Apple is trying to cause a revolution, but in completely the wrong direction. For shame.

The percentage of income that Thais put towards the latest, greatest mobile phone gadgetry is insane. If released here in Thailand the iPhone would be HUGE if it was unlocked. If locked, it would fail miserably (and perhaps that's why it will never be released here under current marketing strategies).

Honestly, I don't know a single person who uses a locked phone here. People switch their sim cards and numbers at the drop of a hat, if it saves them a few cents a minute. I know people that have multiple sim cards with different providers just so they can get better deals at different times of the day.

In a lot of ways it's a customers market here. There's a used mobile phone shop every couple hundred meters in the city and networks practically give away pre-loaded sim cards at public gatherings just to get you to switch (without a contract).

So for now, after living in this kind of mobile phone market, an iPhone contract would be impossible for me to swallow.

 

[Otaviano]

You are still stucked with a 2 year contract with Orange France.

Isn't the plan selection and account creation handling directly in iTunes? If you have it unlocked on purchase before ever syncing it to iTunes then what's to stop you from immediately inserting your SIM card and getting on with life?

Also I believe you have 14 days to back out of the contract, couldn't you have it unlocked immediately and then cancel the contract within 14 days and keep the phone?

 

[geWAPpnet]

This whole rigamarole goes way beyond Apple. It portends changes to come in the cell phone industry. I believe that eventually cell phones will no longer be locked anywhere, as the courts will no longer permit it. In the future, people will refer to the "iPhone Decision," the turning point that changed the cell phone industry forever.

Actually this was one of the reasons for Vodafone's action in Germany - but the other way around. The concept of locked phones is completely unknown in Germany. There never was any locked phone, never! So we have 100% unlocked phones over here (and this may explain the otherwise mentioned statistics about Europe). Vodafone simply wants a legally clarification about this in Germany. If it's possible for T-Mobile to lock the iPhone, then Vodafone could do this with their phones also. Again: This was never done in Germany.

 

[samab]

I'd vote for more restricting decoupling laws here in the Netherlands, or the whole EU for that matter. Forbid coupling of phones and contracts altogether - not just a non-contract version, but no contract-version phone at all.

You can vote whatever you want in the Netherlands --- but it wouldn't matter because OPTA basically doesn't have any policy justification with their "must unlock after 12 months" policy. It's a 2 sentence "policy" hidden in the definitions webpage under simlock with zero explanation. And all their previous justifications were based on outdated and flawed studies of other countries in Europe --- many of those countries mentioned in the Netherlands consumer protection agencies had longed switched sides to allow simlocking (like Nokia's homeland Finland).

Isn't the plan selection and account creation handling directly in iTunes? If you have it unlocked on purchase before ever syncing it to iTunes then what's to stop you from immediately inserting your SIM card and getting on with life?

Also I believe you have 14 days to back out of the contract, couldn't you have it unlocked immediately and then cancel the contract within 14 days and keep the phone?

I would assume that the French would copy the German launch in that you signed the contract first and then buy the iphone second.

They can always put in penalties for people who attempt to both unlock and cancel contract at the same time. I don't think that will be against any French laws.

 

[Otaviano]

You can vote whatever you want in the Netherlands --- but it wouldn't matter because OPTA basically doesn't have any policy justification with their "must unlock after 12 months" policy. It's a 2 sentence "policy" hidden in the definitions webpage under simlock with zero explanation. And all their previous justifications were based on outdated and flawed studies of other countries in Europe --- many of those countries mentioned in the Netherlands consumer protection agencies had longed switched sides to allow simlocking (like Nokia's homeland Finland).

Only 3G phones can be sold locked in Finland and the ones that are sold locked are subsidised by the phone carrier. If you pay the full price of the phone it's sold to you unlocked.

 

[samab]

Actually this was one of the reasons for Vodafone's action in Germany - but the other way around. The concept of locked phones is completely unknown in Germany. There never was any locked phone, never! So we have 100% unlocked phones over here (and this may explain the otherwise mentioned statistics about Europe). Vodafone simply wants a legally clarification about this in Germany. If it's possible for T-Mobile to lock the iPhone, then Vodafone could do this with their phones also. Again: This was never done in Germany.

German prepaid phones are typically simlocked.

 

[Otaviano]

German prepaid phones are typically simlocked.

I doubt that very much

 

[samab]

Only 3G phones can be sold locked in Finland and the ones that are sold locked are subsidised by the phone carrier. If you pay the full price of the phone it's sold to you unlocked.

But it doesn't have to be --- by Finnish laws.

Finnish laws allow handset bundling with a contract for 3G phones. It doesn't specify that the handset has to be subsidized at all.

So if Apple makes a 3G iphone --- it is within Finnish laws to sell you an unsubsidized simlocked iphone with a contract.

I doubt that very much

T-Mobile Germany charges 99.50 euro for the unlocking codes for their other phones.

http://www.t-mobile.de/simlock/0,11500,16743-_,00.html

 

[Otaviano]

But it doesn't have to be --- by Finnish laws.

Finnish laws allow handset bundling with a contract for 3G phones. It doesn't specify that the handset has to be subsidized at all.

So if Apple makes a 3G iphone --- it is within Finnish laws to sell you an unsubsidized simlocked iphone with a contract.

Which is exactly why the law needs to be revised and locking a phone you paid full price needs to become impossible.

The entire reason I've grown to really dislike Apple after years of using their products is what they are trying to do to our cell phone industry.

What happens if all the major phone makers realize they can try and grease phone carriers for a portion of our monthly bills and then all phones come locked and force you into a contract.

Why should this be possible?

When I purchase a computer I don't have to use a specific internet company selected by Apple.

I pay 56€ a month for 3,000 minutes, sms, & mms along with a 1000MB data plan. I have such a good deal because I'm free to cancel the contract, insert a different SIM card and move to a competitor.

If all phones become locked then carriers will have much less incentive to compete and offer better deals because you are at their mercy for at least two years.

I don't want this, it might work in the United States but I don't want it over here.

T-Mobile Germany charges 99.50 euro for the unlocking codes for their other phones.

http://www.t-mobile.de/simlock/0,11500,16743-_,00.html

That does not mean that a 100€ phone sold without a contract is sold to you locked. Every phone I bought and paid full price for has come unlocked I then went a bought a SIM card from the carrier of choice. The only locked phones I've gotten have been subsidised and then yes some countries charge for unlocking and other's do it for free.

 

[samab]

Which is exactly why the law needs to be revised and locking a phone you paid full price needs to become impossible.

But the trend is in the exact opposite direction.

Belgium is the last country in Europe that categorically denies simlocking --- the only dinosaur.

That does not mean that a 100€ phone sold without a contract is sold to you locked. Every phone I bought and paid full price for has come unlocked I then went a bought a SIM card from the carrier of choice. The only locked phones I've gotten have been subsidised and then yes some countries charge for unlocking and other's do it for free.

It doesn't matter to the question posed by geWAPpnet --- that Vodafone is suing to "clarify" German laws because simlocking has never taken place in Germany.

There is a major disconnect in various forums about these things. When a certain carrier doesn't do x, y and z --- it doesn't mean that those certain things are not allowed under national laws.

 

[Otaviano]

But the trend is in the exact opposite direction.

Belgium is the last country in Europe that categorically denies simlocking --- the only dinosaur.

The trend might be the opposite way, but I remind you that the only locked phones sold are subsided. If I buy the most expensive Nokia phone anywhere in the EU and I pay full price it will come unlocked.

So the trend might have gone in the other direction but only in an effort to aide carriers that want to subsidise phones. In an effort to protect their investment in customers.

What Apple is doing is a completely new thing and I believe that if the matter got picked up the EU they would rule against Apple very quickly.

There is no denying that what Apple is doing is hindering your choice as a consumer. It would not be hard to make the case at all. In every country that has seen the iPhone launched so far you can make a case that Apple is preventing you from selecting the best plan for your needs.

 

[samab]

When I purchase a computer I don't have to use a specific internet company selected by Apple.

There are still plenty of "free pc's" bundled with internet service plans in Europe.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/11/13/redten_free_pc_package/

The trend might be the opposite way, but I remind you that the only locked phones sold are subsided. If I buy the most expensive Nokia phone anywhere in the EU and I pay full price it will come unlocked.

So the trend might have gone in the other direction but only in an effort to aide carriers that want to subsidise phones. In an effort to protect their investment in customers.

What Apple is doing is a completely new thing and I believe that if the matter got picked up the EU they would rule against Apple very quickly.

Or the opposite is true. National regulators are useless because they are constantly lobbied by carriers to loosen up these restrictions. And all the lobbying have made all these laws practically useless in real life.

 

[Otaviano]

There are still plenty of "free pc's" bundled with internet service plans in Europe.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/11/13/redten_free_pc_package/

You really seem to like twisting arguements in an effort to make a point.

I said that when I purchase a computer, yes purchase as in paying full price, I'm not forced into using a internet service provider selected by Apple.

You reply with an advertisement for an internet company that will give you a computer for FREE for signing up for their broadband services.

That's reaching...

That's called subsidizing a product, and is entirely different from what I posted.

 

[Archie-]

If they support playsforsure, then Nokia paying their business partners some money (or getting paid by those business partners).

So in the end, you can only get apps and services from Nokia or Nokia business partners.

Playsforsure works without special arrangements, or do you think that cheap mp3 player that supports playsforsure is receiving a kickback from all the possible stores you subscribe to?

And for those people who point to UK as the bastion for locked phones, thats no surprise as its really the 51st state of America in any case. Even there percent on pay as you go is around 60%, vs virtually non-existent in America. In Europe people do not like to be locked in.

 

[dariusperkins]

...thats what the freemarket is about.

i can't stand the european attitude to layer everything with legislation and rules to try and impose some ideological order.

US freemarkets eh?

like here?
http://www.intuitive.com/blog/world_trade_organisation_rules_us_cotton_subsidies_illegal.html

or maybe here?
http://alternativeperspective.blogspot.com/2006/12/hidden-hand-of-free-market-corporate.html

or even here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure

i can't stand your blinkered attitude of superiority.

 

[samab]

Playsforsure works without special arrangements, or do you think that cheap mp3 player that supports playsforsure is receiving a kickback from all the possible stores you subscribe to?

Playsforsure comes from Microsoft --- so let the conspiracy theorists talk about whether there is or isn't any special arrangements with the devil.

 

[Otaviano]

Or the opposite is true. National regulators are useless because they are constantly lobbied by carriers to loosen up these restrictions. And all the lobbying have made all these laws practically useless in real life.

That could be true, but we now have an EU-wide cap on roaming charges, which I'm sure carriers opposed to very strongly. So there is evidence contrary to your argument that shows EU regulators standing up to companies and protecting consumers.

 

[samab]

You really seem to like twisting arguements in an effort to make a point.

I said that when I purchase a computer, yes purchase as in paying full price, I'm not forced into using a internet service provider selected by Apple.

You reply with an advertisement for an internet company that will give you a computer for FREE for signing up for their broadband services.

That's reaching...

That's called subsidizing a product, and is entirely different from what I posted.

Not really trying to twist your words.

It's just my general reaction to the pc/isp argument by Mossberg (the one about carriers being like soviet ministries).

 

[Otaviano]

Not really trying to twist your words.

It's just my general reaction to the pc/isp argument by Mossberg (the one about carriers being like soviet ministries).

You are twisting things around because you are replying to my posts, not to an arguement made by Mossberg, which I have not read.

So when I said that it would be messed up if you purchased a computer at full price and were forced into using an Apple selected ISP you can't reply with freaking advert for a free subsidised computer from an English ISP. The two things have nothing to do with one another.

 

[riverfreak]

Where you do live? Here in the Netherlands there are paid hotspots all over the place.

I live in the Western United States. I'm not talking about PAID hotspots, I'm talking about free and open hot spots. They are everywhere where I live. Walk in any independent coffee shop, bar, or hotel and they will probably have free wireless.

Then there are all the places that offer paid access through T-Mobile or Boingo and the like. In Germany, I found T-Mobile spots everywhere, which is apparently a disincentive for businesses to offer free access for their customers.

 

[samab]

That could be true, but we now have an EU-wide cap on roaming charges, which I'm sure carriers opposed to very strongly. So there is evidence contrary to your argument that shows EU regulators standing up to companies and protecting consumers.

The problems is that EU regulators have historically (from GE-Honeywell to Boeing-McDonnell Douglas) got their priorities all reversed.

American anti-trust and competition laws look at how it will affect the consumers. European anti-trust and competition laws look at how it will affect competitors.

And most of the current arguments have been to have EC Competition to take over a lot of these mobile issues.

 

[sjo]

If they support playsforsure, then Nokia paying their business partners some money (or getting paid by those business partners).

So in the end, you can only get apps and services from Nokia or Nokia business partners.

bs. you can install any app or service you want on your nokia phone. if apple wants nokia phones to access the itms or play the songs bought from there all they need to do is port they itunes on symbian and distribute it. just like they have windows itunes.

 

[samab]

So when I said that it would be messed up if you purchased a computer at full price and were forced into using an Apple selected ISP you can't reply with freaking advert for a free subsidised computer from an English ISP. The two things have nothing to do with one another.

But how do you justify that 399 euro ($570 US) is the "full price" for the iphone.

So the "parts" comes out to be $250, and Apple spends another $100 in sunken costs for R&D and spends another $20 on advertising = $370.

If Apple wants to make $370 in profit for each phone (which comes out to $740) --- then a $570 US price would be a subsidized price.