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You can vote whatever you want in the Netherlands --- but it wouldn't matter because OPTA basically doesn't have any policy justification with their "must unlock after 12 months" policy. It's a 2 sentence "policy" hidden in the definitions webpage under simlock with zero explanation. And all their previous justifications were based on outdated and flawed studies of other countries in Europe --- many of those countries mentioned in the Netherlands consumer protection agencies had longed switched sides to allow simlocking (like Nokia's homeland Finland).

Sigh...... Are you from here? I guess not. I don't care what Finland does, I don't live there. All I care about is the unlocking code I will receive after I mailed in the card that came with the phone. So that I can pop-in a SIM from a SIM-only subscription for 14.95 EUR a month. All these assumptions and all this defending of SIM-locking and carrier-tying makes me wonder what year I live in..... :confused: As if this is a GOOD thing. I know, I know, I don't have to buy the damn thing, blah, blah, blah.....
 
bs. you can install any app or service you want on your nokia phone. if apple wants nokia phones to access the itms or play the songs bought from there all they need to do is port they itunes on symbian and distribute it. just like they have windows itunes.

Not if Nokia continues to force all apps to be signed. And only signed apps gets to appear on the "nokia content discoverer".
 
But how do you justify that 399 euro ($570 US) is the "full price" for the iphone.

So the "parts" comes out to be $250, and Apple spends another $100 in sunken costs for R&D and spends another $20 on advertising = $370.

If Apple wants to make $370 in profit for each phone (which comes out to $740) --- then a $570 US price would be a subsidized price.

I know because Apple has said in their quarterly earnings calls that the iPhone is not subsidised. So that means the phone's full price is €399, they could have charged €499 something I'd be willing to pay (provided it's unlocked).

Also when you buy a subsidised phone, the carrier has to disclose the amount that they are subsidising and the period it will take for them to recoup that amount. So if it were the case that the iPhone was subsidised that information would have come to light. Of course that doesn't matter because Apple has said the phone is not subsidised and even stated at some point that they were against releasing a subsidised phone because they want to maintain the value of their brand.
 
All these assumptions and all this defending of SIM-locking and carrier-tying makes me wonder what year I live in.....

No, the problem is that you people who live in the Netherlands think that there are all kinds of laws and regulations in your country about simlocking and carrier-tying.

That's assumptions on your part, not mine.

It's a mere 2 sentence thing without any explanation --- not a solid legal base for anything.

I am not defending anything, I am just pointing out the current situation where laws and regulations are weak.

I know because Apple has said in their quarterly earnings calls that the iPhone is not subsidised. So that means the phone's full price is €399, they could have charged €499 something I'd be willing to pay (provided it's unlocked).

Also when you buy a subsidised phone, the carrier has to disclose the amount that they are subsidising and the period it will take for them to recoup that amount. So if it were the case that the iPhone was subsidised that information would have come to light. Of course that doesn't matter because Apple has said the phone is not subsidised and even stated at some point that they were against releasing a subsidised phone because they want to maintain the value of their brand.

Not being subsidized is not entirely equal to paying the full price.

There is no single definiton for what subsidies are. All the deferred revenue share can be justified by GAAP as handset subsidies.
 
So when I bought my new MacBook Pro this summer I wasn't paying full price?

There is no formal and legal definition for the so-called handset subsidies, so it's Apple's words vs. yours.

The deal is so complex that any auditing firm can twist all kinds of insane handset subsidies into the iphone business model.

As with laptops nowadays, there are all sorts of HSDPA chipsets or WiMAX chipsets built-in --- who the hell knows whether Intel is or is not paying for the privilege of having WiMAX in the laptop.
 
Not if Nokia continues to force all apps to be signed. And only signed apps gets to appear on the "nokia content discoverer".

Irrelevant. Getting a certificate is cheap and easy.

You are spinning like a top, but the fact is Apple is forcing a situation which is very anti-consumer, and may be slapped down for it.
 
Colony ?

Haha, crazy Europeans.

Wasn't America discovered colonized and born from european sources ? Anyway the iphone is still a no no for anyone with a backbone im never going to buy my ringtone apple has really gone too far this time. I thought the whole 1994 thing was breaking down the system not re-enforcing it ! yeah sure it has to be unlocked from day one its not part of the apple kudos (rant)
 
Irrelevant. Getting a certificate is cheap and easy.

You are spinning like a top, but the fact is Apple is forcing a situation which is very anti-consumer, and may be slapped down for it.

It's not irrelevant at all.

Nokia's "content discoverer" (or under its old name Preminent) has always been a Qualcomm BREW clone (which has the same kind of model as imode).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/29/nokia_preminet_java/

Certifies the apps, put them into your catalog and gets a percentage of the revenue share --- that's imode, that's Qualcomm BREW and that's Nokia Content Discoverer.
 
It's truly remarkable to see the amount of people that believe that Apple subsidize the iPhone, despite all the evidence to the contrary. A psychologist could do a great study on cognitive dissonance just on these boards.

Colbert also springs to mind, specifically the truthiness of the subsized model.

Truthiness, to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.
 
Not if Nokia continues to force all apps to be signed. And only signed apps gets to appear on the "nokia content discoverer".

Dude,

You seem to be talking out the side of your neck. I've installed a lot of "unsigned" software in my Nokia phones. And who cares about the "nokia content discoverer". There's plenty of ways to install an app on Nokia branded phones.
 
AllaboutSymbian.com
my-symbian.com

and lots more Symbian application sites.

Nokia welcomes 3rd party applications - they realise that having an open platform ( open as to develop on ) benefits the Symbian platform and thus their phone offerings.

It's not irrelevant at all.

Nokia's "content discoverer" (or under its old name Preminent) has always been a Qualcomm BREW clone (which has the same kind of model as imode).

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/29/nokia_preminet_java/

Certifies the apps, put them into your catalog and gets a percentage of the revenue share --- that's imode, that's Qualcomm BREW and that's Nokia Content Discoverer.
 
It's truly remarkable to see the amount of people that believe that Apple subsidize the iPhone, despite all the evidence to the contrary. A psychologist could do a great study on cognitive dissonance just on these boards.

Colbert also springs to mind, specifically the truthiness of the subsized model.

Truthiness, to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.

It's more like I believe in the truthiness of the GAAP accounting model. The accounting laws are so loose that they can put anything into the handset subsidies equation.

Dude,

You seem to be talking out the side of your neck. I've installed a lot of "unsigned" software in my Nokia phones. And who cares about the "nokia content discoverer". There's plenty of ways to install an app on Nokia branded phones.

That's because Nokia is in 0.1 version with their business models right now.

Nokia is not spending 8 billion dollars to buy GPS map makers for nothing. They are not spending 60 million dollars to buy Loudeye for nothing.
 
I don't see how 999 euro is not a reasonable price at all.

Some French supermarket sold out their grey market hacked up unauthorized unlocked iphones without a valid apple warranty --- for 999 euro.

I would think that the carriers should be able to charge 1200 euro for a properly unlocked iphone with geniune apple warranty.
The point is that they are tasked with providing the hardware without the contract and merely tacking the lost cost of the contract onto the hardware to achieve that is not really the same thing.

It's actually a very transparent and unethical dodge.

AFAIK the law says that they are supposed to be providing the customers with a choice of buying with the contract or without. If the choice is between the item, and the item with a huge arbitrary fee attached that is equivalent to the contract, then they are not really providing a choice. I think a lawyer could successfully argue that this is not really a choice at all and thus fails to meet the intent of the law.

To justify the higher price legally (IANAL), it seems to me that they have to prove that the iPhone was subsidised in the first place (it clearly isn't), and that the higher price is the "real" price. Alternatively they could sell it at the retail cost of the hardware, plus any other fees they incur to "disconnect" the contract for the customer. These costs are arguably very minimal if they exist at all.

Another possible loophole could be that (as you mention) Apple themselves might try to argue that the added cost is the cost of the Warranty given the "new situation" of being unlocked. Again however, this is transparent bull at best. Also, if they try that tactic then that puts Apple itself firmly on the hook of any lawyer that wants to test this and becomes a PR nightmare.

This is a very dicey situation PR wise. Right now, people are going to blame Deutsche Telecom for this even though Apple likely had a lot to do with the pricing decision. If it should happen that people start seeing Apple as literally stealing an extra few hundred Euros out of their pocket, this could all get rather ugly real fast. These kinds of things snowball really fast in our age of information. It's not impossible that we might see iPhone bonfires if the public gets it's dander up. IMO Apple is insane not to basically "give in" to unlocked iPhones at this point as they begin to assume the shape of pure evil otherwise.

Being an Apple user and supporter from the very start, personally I am really disappointed at their response to this situation. Remember when the iPhone came out and everyone thought that "Apple would like to let it be open but AT&T is forcing them to keep it locked"? Clearly that wasn't true. Apple seems to be very deeply involved in doing almost anything they can to stop unlocked iPhones, seemingly for the money alone.

That is terribly significant IMO. The only rational interpretation is that Apple is purposely and deliberately behaving in a very anti-consumer way here, out of pure greed. When you add to that realisation the fact that Apple is basically sitting on a mountain of cash right now already ...

Well it doesn't look good at all does it? :(

Boo-Hiss for Apple from me. Giving in to pure unadulterated greed is hardly "thinking different."
 
It's more like I believe in the truthiness of the GAAP accounting model. The accounting laws are so loose that they can put anything into the handset subsidies equation.

Doing ACCA myself, but not familiar with that, surely they can't be far removed from IFRS.

If you want to see creative accounting check out the movie industry.
 
AFAIK the law says that they are supposed to be providing the customers with a choice of buying with the contract or without. If the choice is between the item, and the item with a huge arbitrary fee attached that is equivalent to the contract, then they are not really providing a choice. I think a lawyer could successfully argue that this is not really a choice at all and thus fails to meet the intent of the law.

Of course, we are talking about Europe who fought Microsoft for 5 years and got a "win" on the "forcing" Microsoft to sell a Windows XP version without the media player. Nobody figured that the big loophole is for Microsoft to charge the same price for both versions and a few hundred copies of that special xp version was sold in Europe.

European laws look good on papers when geeks tried to argue them in internet forums. In practice, these laws are pretty useless.
 
That's because Nokia is in 0.1 version with their business models right now.

Nokia is not spending 8 billion dollars to buy GPS map makers for nothing. They are not spending 60 million dollars to buy Loudeye for nothing.

Its to give value added functionality to their phones.

I highly doubt Nokia would do an Apple and force their phones to be compatible only with their GPS software and music store etc etc.
 
Doing ACCA myself, but not familiar with that, surely they can't be far removed from IFRS.

If you want to see creative accounting check out the movie industry.

I agree. It's like how HD-DVD organization paid the hollywood studios $150 million to go from blu-ray exclusive to hd-dvd exclusive.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-w...dios-for-promotional-consideration-291491.php

How do you price it in subsidies for a hd-dvd?

Its to give value added functionality to their phones.

I highly doubt Nokia would do an Apple and force their phones to be compatible only with their GPS software and music store etc etc.

We are talking about $8 BILLION US for navteq --- that's a lot of value.
 
I agree. It's like how HD-DVD organization paid the hollywood studios $150 million to go from blu-ray exclusive to hd-dvd exclusive.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-w...dios-for-promotional-consideration-291491.php

How do you price it in subsidies for a hd-dvd?

They're not analogous at all. One is concerned with altering the bs in order for the studio to claim that a movie didn't make money (the famous example being Batman), in order to screw over people who were due their percentage. The other is a nice big carrot.

Not sure I understand your second question.
 
Not if Nokia continues to force all apps to be signed. And only signed apps gets to appear on the "nokia content discoverer".

On the symbian developer site you can easily sign Apps for yourself. This is completely free of charge and takes only a few minutes.

The signed App will be restricted to one device (based on IMEI), a warning is displayed when installing it and some "dangerous" cpabilities are not available, but it will do for most hobby development.

They will also sign free software for use on all devices free of charge, as long as it meets symbian quality standards.

Christian
 
On the symbian developer site you can easily sign Apps for yourself. This is completely free of charge and takes only a few minutes.

The signed App will be restricted to one device (based on IMEI), a warning is displayed when installing it and some "dangerous" cpabilities are not available, but it will do for most hobby development.

They will also sign free software for use on all devices free of charge, as long as it meets symbian quality standards.

Christian

For now.

Nokia has been toying with their own version of the imode and Qualcomm BREW business models for 3-4 years now.

It's just that Nokia hasn't been particularly successful with their Preminent project. Nokia's failure with Preminent --- doesn't mean that they aren't going to continue to try it in the future.
 
[sorry about my posts in this thread, I just find it so ridiculous that no one understands competitive business economics (apologies to those that do:)]

Thanks for your kind reply.

It appears that this competetive business economics thing is not working in some cases. The € 999 iPhone is one example, and so were the postal and wired telecom markets here.
 
For now.

Nokia has been toying with their own version of the imode and Qualcomm BREW business models for 3-4 years now.

It's just that Nokia hasn't been particularly successful with their Preminent project. Nokia's failure with Preminent --- doesn't mean that they aren't going to continue to try it in the future.

Your speculating, nothing more ( unless you can provide an URL ).

The signing of Symbian apps is related to Symbian 9.x new security model.
 
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