Is Apple still serious about the professional market?

[eelpout]

I know that I am staying with the G5 that I have using CS4. When my time for upgrading my Adobe product reaches version CS7 - I will be making a decision of whether to stay with Apple.

I'm not a power user. I want a mid-level tower with it's own dedicated video card, and space for two hard drives, with no chimping out on available ram slots. If Apple cannot make such a machine for around $1,500 - $1,700 Cdn$ - then I will be poking the tires in the Windows world. There is no reason why they cannot do this.

As a potential customer I will not accept being told that the iMac is all that is offered for this price range. When they dropped the matte screen for glossy only iMacs - what was barely tolerable for someone that wants more options for expandiblity was not worth putting up with. Apple refuses to listen to a segment of its users that want matte screens. I want to service basic stuff with my computer and not have to have someone replace hard drives (if I understand what others have said about this issue correctly).

Uh, if Adobe's direction for Lightroom is any indication, the PowerPC is dead to them for any future versions, including CS5. Get on the Intel train now.

I actually know quite a number of graphic designers and they've made do with iMac's. The i5 and i7 have more than enough horsepower for the Adobe apps they use and they position their Mac's for low glare or use black fabric behind them. Many simply use a 2nd matte screen for critical work.

I'm not an iMac lover either (personally hate the glassy screens), but if you don't need more than 2 monitors or the hardware expansion bus, you can make them work for the majority of tasks (yes, I know there are exceptions). And sadly I think that's enough for Apple at this point and the days of expandable towers as a focus are numbered with them. They'll simply get you to upgrade every couple years as they slowly ooze new hardware (like Light Peak) into future all-in-one products.

 

[Toronto Mike]

As of now for my own use, the dual 2.0 G5 is more than adequate using CS4. I Know what you are saying about Intel being where it's at, but Ii'm stubbornly digging in to save money on the upgrade cycle.

Since I'm not a graphic professional, and only generate my own promotional materials - keeping pace with what is current will only be an issue for me when printers will not accept my CS4 files in the future. For me - CS7 would be when I would probably need to upgrade because that is the last version I'd be eligible for the upgrade price.

If Apple at that point still only offers a glassy screen iMac as their only equivalent to a mid type of system, I have only two choices:

- spend way too much for more computer than I really need - MacPro

- try to find previous used or refurbished models more in my price range.
However, here in Canada with the difference in the exchange rates, even
the refurbished units are still expensive.


No doubt the iMac, in terms of power, would suit my needs - but it has limitations that are just not acceptable to me:

- cannot change the hard drive yourself (I might not be right about this)

- are you stuck with the graphic card that it comes with? What if something
goes wrong with the graphic card? Does this entail a very costly service
if the unit is out of warranty when in a tower you just buy another card
and install it yourself.

- the highly reflective glassy screen. Why should I have to now buy another
monitor and add to the overall expense when the older versions had a
matte screen.

- just like the entry level Mac Pros - why should I put up with only 4 ram
slots? First, to max the ram out, I have to buy more expensive 4GB ram
sticks when it is cheaper to get the same equivalent with the lower priced
ram sticks when you have an 8 slot Mac Pro. I want the option for the ram
capacity of the 8 slot Mac Pros. I might never max it out, but it would give
me peace of mind knowing that I could in the future to prolong the life of
the machine.

- where is the faster connections - i.e eSata ports for having a dual hard
drive set up for a Photoshop scratch disk. How hard is it to give us that
since the iMac doesn't have dual hard drives.

This is to name a few of the things that I cannot bring myself to buying an iMac. Aside from the glassy only monitor (which is a deal breaker for me), the iMac comes out in its cycle enough for my needs, yet I always see it as a dead end system, that appears costly to fix if you want to do simple things. I see this as Apple pushing me to upgrade faster than I think is warranted. This is why they will not give us a mid-Mac Tower because a mid-Mac Tower is fine for most people - we won't have to spend that kind of money for a Mac Pro, and will not be on the faster upgrade cycle of the iMac.

My response here might be hijacking the Pro aspect of this discussion - but when professionals who don't need the full power of a Mac Pro and its server grade cpu, but need expandability, desktop cooling, ram capacity - and not to be forced into glassy only screens - when their needs are not met, something is wrong. Even the entry Mac Pros, which have enough space in their cases, have been purposely denuded with only 4 ram slots. A certain segment of Apple's customers are being forced into higher priced models when it isn't necessary.

That's my humble take on how Apple treats its professionals at this juncture.

Mike

 

[Chaos123x]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/apple-releases-aperture-3-83877837.html

Looks like Apple is busy making 64-Bit versions of pro-apps.

 

[disconap]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/apple-releases-aperture-3-83877837.html

Looks like Apple is busy making 64-Bit versions of pro-apps.

Apple's hardware and software people are separate departments. Actually, historically every individual project has its own department, shrouded in mystery, so I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, the public announcement was the first most of Apple learned about the iTab.

Which is a shame, as maybe one of the folks from the, say, Macbook team could have said something like "Excuse me sir, but you know this thing sucks, right?"

 

[disconap]

My response here might be hijacking the Pro aspect of this discussion - but when professionals who don't need the full power of a Mac Pro and its server grade cpu, but need expandability, desktop cooling, ram capacity - and not to be forced into glassy only screens - when their needs are not met, something is wrong. Even the entry Mac Pros, which have enough space in their cases, have been purposely denuded with only 4 ram slots. A certain segment of Apple's customers are being forced into higher priced models when it isn't necessary.

That's my humble take on how Apple treats its professionals at this juncture.

Mike

To be fair, most of the people on here aren't the "professional market". That's not to say we're not professionals; my PowerMac is the center of how I earn my living. But I'm also not bulk purchasing 20-30 machines (or 200-300, or 2000-3000 or whatever) for a department of my business. That's the main pro market that Apple is concerned with, and that's why the towers are updated so infrequently, as a lot of those customers (such as Nike's ad department, for one) will do a replacement sweep of machines every year or two.

On the level of people like us, NO hardware company can focus on the type of demanding, whining professionals we all are. No offense intended to anyone one with that, and I include myself in this, but come on. We constantly pick apart every piece of hardware, we analyze how we could build a hackintosh for less (of COURSE we can, half the price point is having a fully-assembled and integrated machine, how can a manufacturer with a production/shipping lag even TRY to compete with parts that are updated monthly?), we're constantly bitching about the lack of third party hardware and software support, such as eSata for example (my biggest complaint, to throw it out there), but the ultimate reality is that most of us, or at least a lot of us, gripe or complain as we will, will likely continue to buy Macs. Because they are good machines and really worth the money. The fact that I can gripe about the current line of Mac Pros is actually testament to that, as my 2003 PowerMac is still strong enough to allow me to keep working until the next line (or the one after that) comes out...

 

[Gomff]

NO hardware company can focus on the type of demanding, whining professionals we all are. No offense intended to anyone one with that, and I include myself in this, but come on. We constantly pick apart every piece of hardware, we analyze how we could build a hackintosh for less (of COURSE we can, half the price point is having a fully-assembled and integrated machine, how can a manufacturer with a production/shipping lag even TRY to compete with parts that are updated monthly?), we're constantly bitching about the lack of third party hardware and software support, such as eSata for example (my biggest complaint, to throw it out there), but the ultimate reality is that most of us, or at least a lot of us, gripe or complain as we will, will likely continue to buy Macs.

LOL. Thanks for cutting through some Bullsh*t.

 

[offwidafairies]

i need a workhorse computer

wow this is an intense thread.

i am in the market for a professional computer for audio processing. my mbp does not cope at all and i have given up using windows on my dell dimension 1950 xps (which is sitting at my mother's house gathering dust - shame, i know). i have been planning to bite the bullet and buy a mac pro in the near future, but have had many second thoughts.

at first my unease was due to the cost of the machines. but lately, i have been questioning whether the mac hardware is really superior. i don't think it is. however, i cannot stand windows. i have never used linux.

plus i love logic pro and ilife and final cut. it is hard to leave mac software.

i would love to build a hackint0sh, and do plan to, but i am not a computer whizz, so i am nervous about turning expensive hardware into useless bricks. i am going to give it a go on a netbook this week to see how i go...

but as for serious computing, which i do most of the time... i need a powerful and reliable machine. which means good hardware and software. at the moment my 2007 mbp 4,1 is needing a hard reset at least once a day. there is a hair (i kid you not) and a few giant bits of dust behind the screen. i have no idea how they got there, or if they may have been there since the day i bought it. plus the usb ports are unreliable and the dvd burner is dead. the hdd was replaced after 1 year. plus it is just not up to handing as much audio processing as i need. i use max/msp/jitter, logic, and sibelius mostly. plus photoshop for fun.

i am planning to spend around $6000 for a new desktop machine. i am nervous about spending so much money on a mac (which would be pretty much an entry level mac pro, in australia) when apple does not seem to support updates or deal with serious problems (like my mbp battery that expanded to 3 times its size). i want to buy a machine i can count on for at least 5 years, with just a few part upgrades.

is that too much to ask apple? i already have an iphone and a few ipods. but i could do without them any day. i need a workhorse computer!!!

 

[Topper]

i am in the market for a professional computer for audio processing. but lately, i have been questioning whether the mac hardware is really superior. i don't think it is. however, i cannot stand windows. i have never used linux. plus i love logic pro and ilife and final cut. it is hard to leave mac software.
i want to buy a machine i can count on for at least 5 years, with just a few part upgrades.
i need a workhorse computer!!!

You are answering your own questions.
You don't like Windows.
You like FCP.
You want a workhorse computer that will do the job for 5 years.

I'd suggest that the people who are unhappy with the Mac Pro are a vocal minority.
Most of them probably don't even have a MP.

Most of the real professionals don't have time to spend on this forum. They are out making a living.

I could be wrong but I don't know of any MP maintenance issues.
I've had absolutely no problems with my '08 Mac Pro.

My only minor regret is I wish SL and my software would make better use of the power of my Mac Pro. But eventually they will.

 

[kingtj]

Re: You're correct, Topper ....

I'm not really a member of the "professional market" for the Mac. Rather, I hold a job as a "network manager" for a steel fabrication shop by day, and run my own on-site service and consulting business on the side. But I *do* work with people who make up part of the "professional Mac using market" out there, and I've always opted for Mac Pro towers and "pro" class Apple notebooks for my personal use. (I'm enough of a "power user" in general that the consumer-grade stuff doesn't impress me enough to bother with it.)

What I can tell you, from personal experience, is that the Mac Pro towers will give you years of trouble-free service (barring the odd exceptions that happen with ANY electronics or computer gear on the market). My 2006 Mac Pro is still humming along just fine. I leave it on 24 hours/7 days, and now have it running as a media server at home, among other things. They're expensive machines, but you get something for your money. Certainly, they're cooled better than most systems out there with all the strategically placed fans in them and a case design that allows airflow through the entire front and back panels. (By contrast, the cooling issues are the real downfall of the entire iMac line. iMacs not only have very FEW vents for heat to escape, but they cram an LCD panel in there along with everything else, generating even more heat. Meanwhile, Apple insists on them running as quietly as possible, meaning no high RPM, high airflow cooling fans allowed in them.)

You are answering your own questions.
You don't like Windows.
You like FCP.
You want a workhorse computer that will do the job for 5 years.

I'd suggest that the people who are unhappy with the Mac Pro are a vocal minority.
Most of them probably don't even have a MP.

Most of the real professionals don't have time to spend on this forum. They are out making a living.

I could be wrong but I don't know of any MP maintenance issues.
I've had absolutely no problems with my '08 Mac Pro.

My only minor regret is I wish SL and my software would make better use of the power of my Mac Pro. But eventually they will.

 

[Eric S.]

i would love to build a hackint0sh, and do plan to, but i am not a computer whizz, so i am nervous about turning expensive hardware into useless bricks.

Having just done that, let me issue a word of warning. Building a Mac Pro replacement is fine as a project if you know what you're doing or don't mind spending many hours online researching various issues (and you can find a lot of help online). But if you need this machine for real work, and it sounds like you do, I would advise against this route. Even though Mac Pros are, in my opinion, way overpriced for the hardware, you will get Apple quality and support, and a guaranteed OS upgrade path.

 

[disconap]

Having just done that, let me issue a word of warning. Building a Mac Pro replacement is fine as a project if you know what you're doing or don't mind spending many hours online researching various issues (and you can find a lot of help online). But if you need this machine for real work, and it sounds like you do, I would advise against this route. Even though Mac Pros are, in my opinion, way overpriced for the hardware, you will get Apple quality and support, and a guaranteed OS upgrade path.

Right. Time is money. If you do not already know how to build a custom DSDT or code/edit a kext, yes you CAN learn and do these things, but ultimately it will probably take you WAY more time and energy than the money difference is worth. Unless it's a hobby machine and you plan to use it for fun and want the learning experience, in which case go for it.

Also, to the poster you're responding to: what audio work do you do that a MBP isn't good enough? I engineer retail release albums on a PPC G4 and it works fine; maybe think about upping your RAM, clearing off your hdd, or even getting an SSD? Might make all the difference...

(unless you're using FCP and scoring HD video or something, of course)

 

[hugodrax]

wow this is an intense thread.

i am in the market for a professional computer for audio processing. my mbp does not cope at all and i have given up using windows on my dell dimension 1950 xps (which is sitting at my mother's house gathering dust - shame, i know). i have been planning to bite the bullet and buy a mac pro in the near future, but have had many second thoughts.

at first my unease was due to the cost of the machines. but lately, i have been questioning whether the mac hardware is really superior. i don't think it is. however, i cannot stand windows. i have never used linux.

plus i love logic pro and ilife and final cut. it is hard to leave mac software.

i would love to build a hackint0sh, and do plan to, but i am not a computer whizz, so i am nervous about turning expensive hardware into useless bricks. i am going to give it a go on a netbook this week to see how i go...

but as for serious computing, which i do most of the time... i need a powerful and reliable machine. which means good hardware and software. at the moment my 2007 mbp 4,1 is needing a hard reset at least once a day. there is a hair (i kid you not) and a few giant bits of dust behind the screen. i have no idea how they got there, or if they may have been there since the day i bought it. plus the usb ports are unreliable and the dvd burner is dead. the hdd was replaced after 1 year. plus it is just not up to handing as much audio processing as i need. i use max/msp/jitter, logic, and sibelius mostly. plus photoshop for fun.

i am planning to spend around $6000 for a new desktop machine. i am nervous about spending so much money on a mac (which would be pretty much an entry level mac pro, in australia) when apple does not seem to support updates or deal with serious problems (like my mbp battery that expanded to 3 times its size). i want to buy a machine i can count on for at least 5 years, with just a few part upgrades.

is that too much to ask apple? i already have an iphone and a few ipods. but i could do without them any day. i need a workhorse computer!!!

I am still using the Mac Pro I bought in 2006
I do not plan on buying a new one yet and I could see 3-4 more years out of this one easy.

 

[rhett7660]

You are answering your own questions.
You don't like Windows.
You like FCP.
You want a workhorse computer that will do the job for 5 years.

I'd suggest that the people who are unhappy with the Mac Pro are a vocal minority.
Most of them probably don't even have a MP.

Most of the real professionals don't have time to spend on this forum. They are out making a living.

I could be wrong but I don't know of any MP maintenance issues.
I've had absolutely no problems with my '08 Mac Pro.

My only minor regret is I wish SL and my software would make better use of the power of my Mac Pro. But eventually they will.

That goes for me too.... I am sure we will find others who have had issues.

 

[Fast Shadow]

Most every TV station or network edits in Windows? For many, I dare say most, local TV stations their primary content is news and I wouldn't be surprised if most of them used PCs for post because there are more options for news on Windows than on Mac. W/that being said KCAL here in LA, a CBS affiliate, runs FCP and actually helped Apple field test Final Cut Server. CNN and the BBC also are turning more towards FCP but I think that is more for a cost saving measure than FCP being better than Avid's news offerings.

I've been on-site at around 10 major market stations such as WSB-TV, KFOX, KIRO, and KTVU - all of them are Avid. They cut stories on Avid and they make heavy use of Avid iNews.

Never seen FCP in a TV station with a large news department.

 

[hugodrax]

Final Cut Pro is huge in the porn industry. Cumshot editors really like the FCP interface for scrubbing and editing.

 

[Chaos123x]

At my TV station all of the News is cut on a program called Aurora News Edit by Grass Valley. Our Specials are cut on Edius and Avid Media Composer.

The Art department and Promo department run FCS2.

So no news is cut on FCP here.

But the Grass Valley play out server is compatible with FCP.

 

[macuserx86]

Final Cut Pro is huge in the porn industry. Cumshot editors really like the FCP interface for scrubbing and editing.

"oh ya, scrub my clip baby!"

 

[hakuryuu]

That I am sure is true in the places you go. But move over to the Video side of the world and you will see that more and more Windows is taking over. Broadcasters are moving to Windows in mass due to the cost to performance ratio. Most every TV station or network edits in Windows. You just can not ignore the cost vs other solutions. Dell and HP sell workstations that offer even more power than a Mac Pro and they sell them for less.

CBS is just finishing a move to a Windows based ( XP 64 bit) video server system for the entire network. So every drop of video you see on CBS before long, except for live video, will be from a Windows system and most of it will be edited on a Windows system and a Windows system will run the automation system, It almost goes without saying that a Windows system will run the business side of the house.


This is the landscape that Apple faces. Wintel is hard to beat when you are selling to a group of buyers that more and more care what things cost.

If you mean that Dell and HP sell cheap towers, then yes, but if you compare part for part then Dell and HP are more expensive. I see this argument far too often and I don't see where it comes from. And I don't see where they are offering more power for less. A 2.93GHz Single chip quad core, 6GB RAM, 1TB HD, 512MB Quadro 580 will cost you $4111 from dell and a similar system (Radeon 4870, but the Quadro is an arguable upgrade considering how Apple handles video cards and optimizations) will run you $3349 from Apple. Add $249 for Applecare if you want to nitpick.

Even in the server space Dell and HP are more expensive than Apple for equivalent hardware components. Offering something cheaper and less capable is not the same. Apple also offers a comparably cheap with good performance SAN solution as well.

 

[peskaa]

I've been on-site at around 10 major market stations such as WSB-TV, KFOX, KIRO, and KTVU - all of them are Avid. They cut stories on Avid and they make heavy use of Avid iNews.

Never seen FCP in a TV station with a large news department.

Heard of the BBC? They use FCP.

 

[nanofrog]

If you mean that Dell and HP sell cheap towers, then yes, but if you compare part for part then Dell and HP are more expensive. I see this argument far too often and I don't see where it comes from. And I don't see where they are offering more power for less. A 2.93GHz Single chip quad core, 6GB RAM, 1TB HD, 512MB Quadro 580 will cost you $4111 from dell and a similar system (Radeon 4870, but the Quadro is an arguable upgrade considering how Apple handles video cards and optimizations) will run you $3349 from Apple. Add $249 for Applecare if you want to nitpick.

Even in the server space Dell and HP are more expensive than Apple for equivalent hardware components. Offering something cheaper and less capable is not the same. Apple also offers a comparably cheap with good performance SAN solution as well.

Don't go by the web pricing. You'd get better prices over the phone with Dell or HP. For Sun, you have to use the phone, as they don't have a web configuration tool.

Exact parity is impossible, but what I've noticed, is going with the same CPU's, the best deals are with those used in the base models (i.e. 3520, 5520). As you go up in clock speeds, the difference narrows, but is still competitive (slightly cheaper, until you go with a clock not offered from Apple).

Memory, drives, and any other add-ons are cheaper from 3rd party sources, but won't be covered under the system warranty. Cost requirements may cause independents to go this route, but the enterprise market tends to prefer a single source of contact if there's ever a problem and are willing to pay for it (given they usually have the budgets to do so when possible).

 

[Phantom Gremlin]

bad Dell pricing

And I don't see where they are offering more power for less. A 2.93GHz Single chip quad core, 6GB RAM, 1TB HD, 512MB Quadro 580 will cost you $4111 from dell and a similar system (Radeon 4870, but the Quadro is an arguable upgrade considering how Apple handles video cards and optimizations) will run you $3349 from Apple. Add $249 for Applecare if you want to nitpick.

Whenever I see silly prices like this quoted about the competition, I'm reminded of that hilarious scene in Used Cars:

Yessir, that's New Deal Used Cars... Now wait just a Goddamn minute. What the hell is this? Is this a 1974 Mercedes 450SL for *twenty-four thousand dollars*? That's too f***ing high.
[blows up car with dynamite. Roy watches at home]

I went to Dell's Small Business web site and just configured a T3500 with your options for $2354, not $4111.

It's easy to knock down a straw man when that straw man is ludicrously overpriced.

 

[hakuryuu]

Whenever I see silly prices like this quoted about the competition, I'm reminded of that hilarious scene in Used Cars:

Yessir, that's New Deal Used Cars... Now wait just a Goddamn minute. What the hell is this? Is this a 1974 Mercedes 450SL for *twenty-four thousand dollars*? That's too f***ing high.
[blows up car with dynamite. Roy watches at home]

I went to Dell's Small Business web site and just configured a T3500 with your options for $2354, not $4111.

It's easy to knock down a straw man when that straw man is ludicrously overpriced.

I wasn't basing it off the T3500, but alas you still prove your point. I wasn't actually aware that the Mac Pro didn't use the X5570 2.93GHz which is used on the T7500. Intel's naming structure and Apple's apparent lack of official model numbers can confuse a little. However, I do believe this only extends to the single processor workstations. So for that range you may be correct. However, if you go to dual processor workstations (as I should have from the beginning) there is at least parity. And this using a T5500 (T3500 can't do dual processor). An HP Z600 included as well. My company also has a contact at Apple that will get us something like 17% off, and we get 20% off at CDW. I have no idea what Dell gives when you call them, but I can't imagine it is much better.

 

[ARF900]

I wouldnt be surprised to see Apple eventually abandon the pro name, and just sell macbooks (which would be current MBPs) and imacs. The high end imac is such a powerful machine that I cant see why anyone would want to buy MP. how many people really take advantage of 8 cores?

 

[Eric S.]

The high end imac is such a powerful machine that I cant see why anyone would want to buy MP.

Because they want IO expansion capability and don't want a built-in monitor.

 

[kernkraft]

The current line of Mac Pros suggest that no, Apple gave up on their pro users. Sorry folks, but there is more revenue behind ordinary iPhoners.