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Exactly. But to be fair, USB3 is just starting to become a standard for new machines, so I'd expect Apple will adopt it sometime this year. Or at least, start adopting it.
As for eSata (and SATA3), I think they'll likely never support them, LightPeak isn't far off and they're one of the funding developers of that technology (along with Intel and, I think, Sony). I read a while back that they're looking to release it this year sometime, so I'd expect it to either run alongside or replace SATA2 entirely. I doubt we'll see Macs with SATA3, but I suppose it's possible.
My fear is that Apple won't adopt usb3 at all because this waporware LP and because of that many pro mac users are hindered to fw800 when there is two faster ports in pc's (eSata & usb3).
But Apple didn't choose not to offer eSata for the last 5 years because of LP.
Also LP will be much more expensive than eSata or usb3, if it ever succeed.
It would be most usable in LTs, especially Air, but MP has lot of space for connectors, so the benefit of daisy chaining all your peripherals to "one port to rule them all" is nonexistent. Also it will be expensive mess with all the hubs and cables needed.
 
I'm not saying that Apple is going to dump FCP out right tomorrow. What I am saying is that Apple doesn't seem to have the same vigor for the pro market as they've had in the past while companies like Adobe and Avid seemingly have regrouped and are pushing hard to get back the thunder that Apple stole from them.

Since you're familiar with Avid (I'm not) I wonder if you know what's
going on with this Media Composer dialog (2 mins 52 seconds in)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYw4vvr7Aq4

Isn't that face eerily similar to the one you'd find in an OS 9 dialog, e.g.:

http://www.nisus.com/NisusWriter/Support/Tips/images/languagekitsOS95.gif

I saw that and I wondered if Avid are really pushing as hard as you
suggest. I don't know what it signifies exactly, but I wonder if there
is a ton of creeky old code behind the scenes.
 
Avid make hardware that accelerates Media Composer. That's something Apple really doesn't do at all. When you compare FC with MC they are very similar but then compare FC cutting Pro Res 422 and MC connected to Nitris DX cutting DNxHD and Avid hits the lead.
 
My fear is that Apple won't adopt usb3 at all because this waporware LP and because of that many pro mac users are hindered to fw800 when there is two faster ports in pc's (eSata & usb3).
But Apple didn't choose not to offer eSata for the last 5 years because of LP.
Also LP will be much more expensive than eSata or usb3, if it ever succeed.
It would be most usable in LTs, especially Air, but MP has lot of space for connectors, so the benefit of daisy chaining all your peripherals to "one port to rule them all" is nonexistent. Also it will be expensive mess with all the hubs and cables needed.

is there any reason you can't just buy a USB3 card when the time comes? It's not like Apple's going to cockpunch developers and say "NO YOU MAY NOT MAKE THOSE"
 
is there any reason you can't just buy a USB3 card when the time comes? It's not like Apple's going to cockpunch developers and say "NO YOU MAY NOT MAKE THOSE"
Only one reason: you have to buy a mac over $3k to get the place for that card.

Btw, those cards are already on the market. There's just of course no drivers for OsX for them. Too few macs could get that card, so there's no commercial benefit for card manufacturer to make drivers and Apple of course won't write them...
 
As for eSata (and SATA3), I think they'll likely never support them, LightPeak isn't far off and they're one of the funding developers of that technology (along with Intel and, I think, Sony). I read a while back that they're looking to release it this year sometime, so I'd expect it to either run alongside or replace SATA2 entirely. I doubt we'll see Macs with SATA3, but I suppose it's possible.
You really think that internal hdd's will use LP instead of sata?

If Apple would respect pro users, it would offer _all_ connectors in macs and let the user decide what to use.
At least with desktops this is ridiculous that there would be any benefit for _not_ having certain port. Pricewise offering all connecions would diminish profits from one mac somthing like less than 1%, but maybe that's too much for the greedy...
 
Only one reason: you have to buy a mac over $3k to get the place for that card.

Btw, those cards are already on the market. There's just of course no drivers for OsX for them. Too few macs could get that card, so there's no commercial benefit for card manufacturer to make drivers and Apple of course won't write them...

Because there's also no demand right now. I'm a pretty hardcore nerd and even I think USB3 is a waste of time currently. WHen it's not a waste of time and people want it, someone will write drivers. Lacie is a pretty sure bet.
 
Since you're familiar with Avid (I'm not) I wonder if you know what's
going on with this Media Composer dialog (2 mins 52 seconds in)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYw4vvr7Aq4

Isn't that face eerily similar to the one you'd find in an OS 9 dialog, e.g.:

http://www.nisus.com/NisusWriter/Support/Tips/images/languagekitsOS95.gif

I saw that and I wondered if Avid are really pushing as hard as you
suggest. I don't know what it signifies exactly, but I wonder if there
is a ton of creeky old code behind the scenes.
Avid can keep the throw back icons on warning dialogs as long as they keep adding things like an open timeline, script sync, AMA, DNxHD codecs, realtime TC burn, etc.,.;)

Is there old code in both Avid and FCP? Yeah, but in the past 2-3 years Avid has been doing more than Apple when it comes to the NLE market, IMO.

is there any reason you can't just buy a USB3 card when the time comes? It's not like Apple's going to cockpunch developers and say "NO YOU MAY NOT MAKE THOSE"
W/only 3 expansion slots, yes, slapping a card in there can be a big deal. Need eSATA? That takes a slot. Need a video I/O device? That takes a slot. Need another FW bus because the control surface you own takes over the single FW bus that all the FW ports on the motherboard share? That takes a slot. Need a Quadro FX 4800? That's a double wide card, IIRC. Need another ethernet port? That takes a slot. Red Rocket? That takes a slot.


Lethal
 
"Is Apple still serious about the professional market?"

A Mac Pro and a MacBook Pro range say otherwise.
 
W/only 3 expansion slots, yes, slapping a card in there can be a big deal. Need eSATA? That takes a slot. Need a video I/O device? That takes a slot. Need another FW bus because the control surface you own takes over the single FW bus that all the FW ports on the motherboard share? That takes a slot. Need a Quadro FX 4800? That's a double wide card, IIRC. Need another ethernet port? That takes a slot. Red Rocket? That takes a slot.


Lethal

…and now let's be honest: How many people actually fill all their slots? They're out there, but I don't think many of 'em are going to be the sort to bitch and moan about USB3

For what it's worth, the quadro is double-wide but only uses one slot because Apple designed the machine properly so the second slot is higher up.

Totally agree on the firewire thing though, that's some ghetto crap going on there.

Lastly, who needs a third ethernet port? I don't doubt there are people who do, but… why?
 
…and now let's be honest: How many people actually fill all their slots? They're out there, but I don't think many of 'em are going to be the sort to bitch and moan about USB3

For what it's worth, the quadro is double-wide but only uses one slot because Apple designed the machine properly so the second slot is higher up.

Totally agree on the firewire thing though, that's some ghetto crap going on there.

Lastly, who needs a third ethernet port? I don't doubt there are people who do, but… why?
Why you're picking on usb3?
It was just smallest problem of about dozen I wrote.

Once again "pro machines" shouldn't be designed the way, that there's no expandability for something that we don't know now. Expandability should be there so when new need in the future rises, you have hardware to use it.

Maybe very few of us depends on fw card, but those who do, need it for they work, which they do for a living.

There are many other cards that some people need; raid, scsi, cameralink, f ibre channel, etc.
There is a reason why most workstations have 5-6 pci slots.

Then you can always say that these are for the pro and pro can pay whatever is needed. If you need more pci slots, buy another MP, etc.

This is not a problem with high profit areas, but it is a matter of life and death for certain business or project in smaller economic areas.
There (here) are countries that makes whole movies with sum of money that ILM charges for one second of footage.

And to get a feeling, if you come from high profit area, take away 30% from your salary, add 30% taxes and add 30% for Apple's prices.
(People from Down Under knows this very well...)

For example, think of indie RED camera assistant, that should also offer backup service. Option for tape drive is scsi card to MP or much more expensive, bulkier networked tape drive/robot. If there is no more free slots in MP, both options are very expensive. And the costs multiply. You need bigger car for location shooting. You need bigger silent generator for electricity and both uses more gas.

This contradicts the image Apple has had towards "the creative people".
Apple's message was "power to the people" when they brought software like FCP to the market. For the first time individuals could own their tools and be free from "corprative leach". No it feels like Apple has turned to a one...

Of course there's hope that things change, but I don't think that pros are waiting for many years anymore. If you don't happen to have love relation to Apple brand, you choose the best option. But thse things happen slowly, because usually you have to replace lots of tools. So pros who switch from mac won't come back any time soon. And if this happens at massive scale, people who still use macs are in trouble. No new products, upgrades, support, etc. This is why indie pros are so nervous about what's going to happen. When your work depends on tools that you can replace only every 5 years, you want to be sure that those tools are comptent for that time.

Right now it just doesn't look good. In fact for indie video, it hasn't look this bad since the intel switch. Think about ACDs. Pros want matte. Are we going to get them? It took few years for Apple to re-offer them in MBPs. Or are "pro" ACDs going the way of Xraid? Uncertainity is the worst.
MPs have now their memory problems and bigger price tags, MBPs loose ports on every revision, FCS development seems to be nonexistent and still 32-bit, Shake is gone, SL haven't still given anything to boost FCS. Still no GPUs with good price-power ratio for Color, no blu-ray authoring, new 64-bit CS5 around the corner...
 
…and now let's be honest: How many people actually fill all their slots? They're out there, but I don't think many of 'em are going to be the sort to bitch and moan about USB3
A common setup for a video editing facility is for workstations to be connected to shared storage via fiber (there goes 1 slot) and have a video I/O card installed (there goes another slot). At work we transfer a lot of footage via external HDDs and I'd love to have all the machines equipped w/eSATA but that would take up the last free slot in most machines and some machines have no free slots left.

W/Apple's position in the post production world you'd think they'd cater to use a little more but I don't see that happening. I don't think Mac towers have had more than 3 slots since the G4 days.


Lastly, who needs a third ethernet port? I don't doubt there are people who do, but… why?
My setup at work has my primary ethernet port connected to the xSan's metadata controller, the secondary ethernet port connected to the network and the third ethernet port connected to the control panels I use for Color. While this setup is rare it will start happening more often, IMO, now that more people are using Color and there are more affordable control panels hitting the market. Putting the control panels and the network on a router is an option but typically the companies that make the control panels don't recommend it from my experience. Not all control panels are ethernet though so it's not like there are no options.


Lethal
 
My setup at work has my primary ethernet port connected to the xSan's metadata controller, the secondary ethernet port connected to the network and the third ethernet port connected to the control panels I use for Color. While this setup is rare it will start happening more often, IMO, now that more people are using Color and there are more affordable control panels hitting the market. Putting the control panels and the network on a router is an option but typically the companies that make the control panels don't recommend it from my experience. Not all control panels are ethernet though so it's not like there are no options.
I'd have thought Fibre Channel would be more desirable for something like this, given the bandwidth. In such an environment, are the budgets so tight that FC's not financially viable?
 
Think about ACDs. Pros want matte. Are we going to get them? It took few years for Apple to re-offer them in MBPs. Or are "pro" ACDs going the way of Xraid?

I don't see why ACDs are part of the signal that Apple is abandoning the pro market. There are and always have been similar or better quality displays from other brands that are more than suitable. I use an Eizo monitor for photo and video work and will probably continue to use Eizo and/or NEC displays in the future. Apple displays were never a selling point, especially when I purchased my Mac Pro.

I do agree with you on the MBPs though. Besides glossy being just awful to work on in just about any environment with lighting it messes with too many aspects of the content on screen.
 
Right now it just doesn't look good. In fact for indie video, it hasn't look this bad since the intel switch. Think about ACDs. Pros want matte. Are we going to get them? It took few years for Apple to re-offer them in MBPs. Or are "pro" ACDs going the way of Xraid? Uncertainity is the worst.
MPs have now their memory problems and bigger price tags, MBPs loose ports on every revision, FCS development seems to be nonexistent and still 32-bit, Shake is gone, SL haven't still given anything to boost FCS. Still no GPUs with good price-power ratio for Color, no blu-ray authoring, new 64-bit CS5 around the corner...

Thanks for taking the time to explain and then summarize your concerns. Unfortunately I think that Apple is moving away from the products you need.
 
My setup at work has my primary ethernet port connected to the xSan's metadata controller, the secondary ethernet port connected to the network and the third ethernet port connected to the control panels I use for Color. While this setup is rare it will start happening more often, IMO, now that more people are using Color and there are more affordable control panels hitting the market. Putting the control panels and the network on a router is an option but typically the companies that make the control panels don't recommend it from my experience. Not all control panels are ethernet though so it's not like there are no options.

Here's an idea for a really cheap 3rd ethernet port. Of course your SAN needs good performance, but presumably either your "network" or "control panel" can be a little slower.

Try out the USB <--> Ethernet dongle that Apple sells for use with the Macbook Air. OS X recognizes it just fine when used in a Macbook. It's cheap and it probably will solve this particular problem.

Of course, that's just a small piece of the puzzle. It does nothing about the overall problems that people have been describing here.
 
I'd have thought Fibre Channel would be more desirable for something like this, given the bandwidth. In such an environment, are the budgets so tight that FC's not financially viable?
The files on the xSan are accessed via fibre but the metadata controller (which coordinates traffic between the xSan and the clients) is connected via ethernet. For smaller shops though that don't need all the bandwidth, and expense, of Fibre there are a few shared storage solutions that can work over gigabit ethernet.


Here's an idea for a really cheap 3rd ethernet port. Of course your SAN needs good performance, but presumably either your "network" or "control panel" can be a little slower.
The dongle would be worth checking out use w/the control panel (we share assets over the network so I wouldn't want to take a speed hit there).


Lethal
 
W/Apple's position in the post production world you'd think they'd cater to use a little more but I don't see that happening. I don't think Mac towers have had more than 3 slots since the G4 days.

Did any of the G4s have more than 3? The last machine I can think of that had more than 3 slots was the 9600.
 
Because there's also no demand right now. I'm a pretty hardcore nerd and even I think USB3 is a waste of time currently. WHen it's not a waste of time and people want it, someone will write drivers. Lacie is a pretty sure bet.
http://www.hardmac.com/news/2010/03...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+hardmac+(HardMac.com)
Pretty soon there's more usb3 ports than macs.
Just wondering why people wouldn't like to have it on macs too.
Even the biggest can correct the mistake so lets hope that Apple won't waste time:
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/03/19/intel-launch-own-usb-30-controller-later-year/
 
The files on the xSan are accessed via fibre but the metadata controller (which coordinates traffic between the xSan and the clients) is connected via ethernet. For smaller shops though that don't need all the bandwidth, and expense, of Fibre there are a few shared storage solutions that can work over gigabit ethernet.
I presumed the need for such a system meant high bandwidth requirements, so FC (or 10G) rather than 1G would have been a necessity (didn't realize you were indicating a smaller implementation that didn't require that much band).
 
A common setup for a video editing facility is for workstations to be connected to shared storage via fiber (there goes 1 slot) and have a video I/O card installed (there goes another slot). At work we transfer a lot of footage via external HDDs and I'd love to have all the machines equipped w/eSATA but that would take up the last free slot in most machines and some machines have no free slots left.

My setup at work has my primary ethernet port connected to the xSan's metadata controller, the secondary ethernet port connected to the network and the third ethernet port connected to the control panels I use for Color. While this setup is rare it will start happening more often, IMO, now that more people are using Color and there are more affordable control panels hitting the market. Putting the control panels and the network on a router is an option but typically the companies that make the control panels don't recommend it from my experience. Not all control panels are ethernet though so it's not like there are no options.


Lethal

Holy crap, you are running some wicked toys. Throw some of that money my way, uncle money bags! ;)

If you mean that Dell and HP sell cheap towers, then yes, but if you compare part for part then Dell and HP are more expensive. I see this argument far too often and I don't see where it comes from. And I don't see where they are offering more power for less. A 2.93GHz Single chip quad core, 6GB RAM, 1TB HD, 512MB Quadro 580 will cost you $4111 from dell and a similar system (Radeon 4870, but the Quadro is an arguable upgrade considering how Apple handles video cards and optimizations) will run you $3349 from Apple. Add $249 for Applecare if you want to nitpick.

I just priced that machine at Dell and this is what I got:

Quad Core Intel® Xeon® W3540 2.93GHz, 8M L3, 4.8GT/s Turbo
6GB, 1066MHz, DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (3 DIMMS)
3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
512MB NVIDIA® Quadro® FX 580, DUAL MON, 2 DP & 1 DVI
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™ and Roxio Creator™ Dell Ed

$2,545.00 - Instant Savings of $302.00

$2,243.00


The same machine on apple.com:
One 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
6GB (3x2GB)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
ATI Radeon HD 4870 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
$3,349.00

Before their current promotion, that's just over $800 difference. After the promotional discount, it's just over $1100 difference.

That, to me, is a pretty big chunk of change. Perhaps not to some of the others in this thread working in REALLY high end video, but to me personally, and the small business I work for, that $1000 buys a lot of other necessary things.

Like toilet paper for the office. ;)

I love my mac, but small businesses face a different reality right now. Apple's workstations are way too much. Really, all Apple has to do is drop their prices with the market as the machines age to keep people happy. I'll still pay a mac premium, but I'll be damned if that Apple premium price difference is going to be large enough to buy a new MacBook.
 
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