iPhone 12 Is iPhone 12 still using PWM OLED?

[jm31828]

Highly doubt the screen size makes any difference at all

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.

I am not the most knowledgeable on this particular technology- am I understanding that these are two completely separate issues- for example the dithering is specific only to LCD displays, OLED's do not function this way- that the flicker is really the only issue with those would be affecting people?

 

[tonybarnaby]

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.

I am not the most knowledgeable on this particular technology- am I understanding that these are two completely separate issues- for example the dithering is specific only to LCD displays, OLED's do not function this way- that the flicker is really the only issue with those would be affecting people?

Only oled have PWM that bother you. Lcd has pwm, but the frequency is WAY higher. Oled pwm frequency is around 240, which is very obvious to anyone who is sensitive to it. All screens use dithering, which is why it appears that all iPhones from the Xr on forward have something that changed fundamentally where it doesn’t matter if it’s oled or lcd, and both will somehow affect a small number of us.

 

[TDDM]

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.

I am not the most knowledgeable on this particular technology- am I understanding that these are two completely separate issues- for example the dithering is specific only to LCD displays, OLED's do not function this way- that the flicker is really the only issue with those would be affecting people?

It’s a really complicated issue. Mainly because the # of affected people is rather low, so there’s been very little research or potential solutions. There are two main threads you can skim through if you want a gist of the situation & see how the our situation developed (Both have been active for a few years now)

PWM Eye Strain on X/XS/11 Pro

Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

Hello all, I thought I'd post here about an issue I've been having and see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing. When I'm using the phone my eyes feel strained, like, they're trying to focus on the screen. Also, I've noticed that when I look away from my phone at something else, my...

forums.macrumors.com

Eye Strain on XR/11

Eye Strain on iPhoneXR?

Hello Everyone, Starting a new thread because we believe this warrants a new poll. Many folks in this thread "https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x.2085427/" are still having Eye Strain issues, even when switching to the iPhone XR. So we are trying to decide...

forums.macrumors.com

For a quick summary:
-A minority % of the population gets eye strain and headaches while using devices with flicker. We don’t know why.
-PWM causes flicker, this is why OLED iPhones cause the symptoms for us. Generally, a higher Hz rate means a lesser chance of symptoms. Unfortunately, iPhones have hovered around 240-290hz, which isn’t good enough yet.
-The LCD iPhones/iPads have no PWM, but still cause the same issues for some. Personally, I think this is due to temporal dithering, which causes flickering as well.
-If you have trouble with the LCD devices, you may be susceptible to any LCD device with an A12 chip or above, due to Apple changing something with the graphics at that point.This isn’t confirmed, just a pattern I noticed.
-The OLED phones may have dithering flicker as well, but the PWM is the most noticeable issue anyway, so it’s nearly irrelevant ATM.

Bottom line: the main problem seems to be flickering. Whether its flickering from PWM, or dithering, or whatever else, that’s the main cause IMO. Most people have no problem whatsoever with the flickering, but the small minority of us who are affected are stuck for now.

 

[tonybarnaby]

It’s a really complicated issue. Mainly because the # of affected people is rather low, so there’s been very little research or potential solutions. There are two main threads you can through if you want a gist of the situation (Both have been active for a few years now)

PWM Eye Strain on X/XS/11 Pro

Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

Hello all, I thought I'd post here about an issue I've been having and see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing. When I'm using the phone my eyes feel strained, like, they're trying to focus on the screen. Also, I've noticed that when I look away from my phone at something else, my...

forums.macrumors.com

Eye Strain on XR/11

Eye Strain on iPhoneXR?

Hello Everyone, Starting a new thread because we believe this warrants a new poll. Many folks in this thread "https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x.2085427/" are still having Eye Strain issues, even when switching to the iPhone XR. So we are trying to decide...

forums.macrumors.com

For a quick summary:
-A minority % of the population gets eye strain and headaches while using devices with flicker.
-PWM causes flicker, this is why OLED iPhones cause the symptoms for us.
-The LCD iPhones/iPads have no PWM, but still cause the same issues for some. Personally, I think this is due to temporal dithering, which causes flickering as well.
-The OLED phones may have dithering flicker as well, but the PWM is the most noticeable issue anyway.

Bottom line: the main problem seems to be flickering. Whether its flickering from PWM, or dithering, or whatever else, that’s the main cause IMO. Most people have no problem whatsoever with the flickering, but the small minority of us who are affected are stuck for now.

The real shame will be if the SE Plus isn’t the solution a lot of us may be hoping for

 

[The Jericho Initiative]

he said some people believe its PWM that gives them headaches not some people believe 12 has PWM. It does have PWM. Because he personally doesn’t get headaches he has to state it’s a belief of others that PWM is the cause. But that doesn’t discount that the 12 has PWM as well

you need to re visit the clip

I don't believe I do. You infer, I listened.

 

[jm31828]

It’s a really complicated issue. Mainly because the # of affected people is rather low, so there’s been very little research or potential solutions. There are two main threads you can skim through if you want a gist of the situation & see how the our situation developed (Both have been active for a few years now)

PWM Eye Strain on X/XS/11 Pro

Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up

Hello all, I thought I'd post here about an issue I've been having and see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing. When I'm using the phone my eyes feel strained, like, they're trying to focus on the screen. Also, I've noticed that when I look away from my phone at something else, my...

forums.macrumors.com

Eye Strain on XR/11

Eye Strain on iPhoneXR?

Hello Everyone, Starting a new thread because we believe this warrants a new poll. Many folks in this thread "https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/eye-strain-while-using-iphone-x.2085427/" are still having Eye Strain issues, even when switching to the iPhone XR. So we are trying to decide...

forums.macrumors.com

For a quick summary:
-A minority % of the population gets eye strain and headaches while using devices with flicker. We don’t know why.
-PWM causes flicker, this is why OLED iPhones cause the symptoms for us. Generally, a higher Hz rate means a lesser chance of symptoms. Unfortunately, iPhones have hovered around 240-290hz, which isn’t good enough yet.
-The LCD iPhones/iPads have no PWM, but still cause the same issues for some. Personally, I think this is due to temporal dithering, which causes flickering as well.
-If you have trouble with the LCD devices, you may be susceptible to any LCD device with an A12 chip or above, due to Apple changing something with the graphics at that point.This isn’t confirmed, just a pattern I noticed.
-The OLED phones may have dithering flicker as well, but the PWM is the most noticeable issue anyway, so it’s nearly irrelevant ATM.

Bottom line: the main problem seems to be flickering. Whether its flickering from PWM, or dithering, or whatever else, that’s the main cause IMO. Most people have no problem whatsoever with the flickering, but the small minority of us who are affected are stuck for now.

Thanks for the links and the summary! Interesting stuff. I can't wait to see what comes in the next few days from testing people are able to do on the 12 lineup to see if we have any improvement in the PWM frequency.

 

[tonybarnaby]

Thanks for the links and the summary! Interesting stuff. I can't wait to see what comes in the next few days from testing people are able to do on the 12 lineup to see if we have any improvement in the PWM frequency.

Www.Notebookcheck.com does thorough reviews that list the pwm exactly

 

[thadoggfather]

I don't believe I do. You infer, I listened.

In any case, without getting absurdly semantical, because he did say it has PWM and was merely taking others' word for it bothering them personally (hence the word he 'believed') and I quote "and I know some people BELIEVE it gives them eye strain or headaches due to PWM or pulse width modulation [...] and if that's you you might wanna stick with (previous non-PWM models described)", and I don't have any more time to waste on this petty nonsense...

Why don't you look at the display section of Zollotech's unboxing where you can easily see with a camera, and Zollotech's description, that iPhone 12 Pro does in fact have PWM. He also summarily noted that 11 Pro didn't affect his eyes in the same way as X/XS because the speed of the flicker increased and expects similarly non-issues with this one.

 

[jm31828]

In any case, without getting absurdly semantical, because he did say it has PWM and was merely taking others' word for it bothering them personally (hence the word he 'believed') and I quote "and I know some people BELIEVE it gives them eye strain or headaches due to PWM or pulse width modulation [...] and if that's you you might wanna stick with (previous non-PWM models described)", and I don't have any more time to waste on this petty nonsense...

Why don't you look at the display section of Zollotech's unboxing where you can easily see with a camera, and Zollotech's description, that iPhone 12 Pro does in fact have PWM. He also summarily noted that 11 Pro didn't affect his eyes in the same way as X/XS because the speed of the flicker increased and expects similarly non-issues with this one.

For those who have been active in the forums discussing PWM over the last few years, does it seem that the numbers of complaints on eye strain/headaches around the 11Pro were a lot fewer than what we saw with the X and XS? From my quick assessment when searching here it appears on the surface to be the case, unless this was more because people learned what this was, and went with the 11 instead of 11 Pro last year, avoiding OLED.

 

[The Jericho Initiative]

In any case, without getting absurdly semantical, because he did say it has PWM and was merely taking others' word for it bothering them personally (hence the word he 'believed'), and I don't have any more time to waste on this petty nonsense...

Why don't you look at the display section of Zollotech's unboxing where you can easily see with a camera, and Zollotech's description, that iPhone 12 Pro does in fact have PWM. He also summarily noted that 11 Pro didn't affect his eyes in the same way as X/XS because the speed of the flicker increased and expects similarly non-issues with this one.

I saw that video. I know the device has PWM and once someone does an actual measurement, we'll see what we have: end of story.

The rest of this is an inexplicable personal disconnect between you and I - so thank you for characterizing this as 'petty nonsense' while simultaneously goading more interaction along these lines... You're still wrong, even though you want to be condescending about it.

"But suffice it to say they both have, just, top of the line panels... And yes, OLED isn't perfect; in previous reviews I've gone over all the mitigations it requires for burn in, off-axis color shift, and more... And I know some people believe it gives them eyestrain or headaches due to the pulse width modulation, pwm, used to maintain performance at lower brightness levels, and if that's you, you'll absolutely want to stick with an LCD iPhone 11, 10r, or SE."

I've watched the video, I hear what I hear. If you want to read more into it - like that he tested for something he clearly didn't - go nuts - but don't try to present it as fact. He was discussing OLED as a piece of consumer technology, not the panel on the iPhone 12.

We're done here.

 

[thadoggfather]

We're done here.

We are not done here. I also dunno who you think you are impersonating, some executive or my personal manager or something but I could not care less about your random out of left field hostility like it holds some weight over my head. Or that I’m supposed to feel intimidated or that its of some Or even any consequence. Sorry you’re having a bad day, That’s where I’ll extend some empathy but beyond that - find another outlet for your frustration. Because you’re plainly out of line.

I encouraged you to watch the Zollo tech video where he clearly has video footage not just your railroading interpretation of Rene Ritchie ‘conjecture’ of PWM on the 12 next to an 11 which does not. And you did. So you’re semantically needlessly arguing with me that Rene Ritchie did not explicitly say it has PWM, and that he was making other allusions that were similar but not on point, for reasons I won’t bother to try to Understand, fully knowing that the device has PWM Which was my only point from the start and was the subject of the thread from the start as outlined in the title - whether or not the device has it. Even also knowing that Zollo said 11 Pro didn’t bother him albeit with PWM and he expects the same with 12 Pro In terms of personal irritation.

So you don’t appear to be operating in good faith Is the bottom line. Your intentions aren’t clear or good.

AND you aren’t even providing new material to absorb From journalists who do have the device, you’re just arguing To argue. I dont have a ‘personal‘ problem with you, honestly I dont Even know who you are in anonymous forum terms (ie I dont recall seeing your posts, username or avatar previously and because of that couldnt possibly foster any resentment for them) but I’m not understanding your tactics and THAT’s what I’m responding to. Now- If you don’t like me, that’s a ’personal‘ problem But for you And again, of no consequence to me and your right to feel as you wish.

It’s a matter of eye tolerance and the viewer not measurement necessarily since some X users weren’t impacted at all and its a subjective thing. And that wasn’t something I ever asserted either : that PWM necessarily means universal eye strain for all.

—

as a side note I’m still optimistic about 12 Pro even though X did result in eye strain for me for the same reasons Zollo mentioned. So I‘m not bringing up that it has it to throw shade at these new devices, I’m approaching it with open eyes (no pun intended). I even have a preorder for it.

 

[tonybarnaby]

For those who have been active in the forums discussing PWM over the last few years, does it seem that the numbers of complaints on eye strain/headaches around the 11Pro were a lot fewer than what we saw with the X and XS? From my quick assessment when searching here it appears on the surface to be the case, unless this was more because people learned what this was, and went with the 11 instead of 11 Pro last year, avoiding OLED.

It may seem like it was fewer, but I can pretty much assure you that the issue remains. No matter how many people post about it, an 11 pro is unusable for those of us who couldn’t use an X, unfortunately.

 

[The Jericho Initiative]

We are not done here. I also dunno who you think you are impersonating, some executive or my personal manager or something but I could not care less about your random out of left field hostility like it holds some weight over my head. Or that I’m supposed to feel intimidated or that its of some Or even any consequence. Sorry you’re having a bad day, That’s where I’ll extend some empathy but beyond that - find another outlet for your frustration. Because you’re plainly out of line.

I encouraged you to watch the Zollo tech video where he clearly has video footage not just your railroading interpretation of Rene Ritchie ‘conjecture’ of PWM on the 12 next to an 11 which does not. And you did. So you’re semantically needlessly arguing with me that Rene Ritchie did not explicitly say it has PWM, and that he was making other allusions that were similar but not on point, for reasons I won’t bother to try to Understand, fully knowing that the device has PWM Which was my only point from the start and was the subject of the thread from the start as outlined in the title - whether or not the device has it. Even also knowing that Zollo said 11 Pro didn’t bother him albeit with PWM and he expects the same with 12 Pro In terms of personal irritation.

So you don’t appear to be operating in good faith Is the bottom line. Your intentions aren’t clear or good. And you aren’t even providing new material to absorb From journalists who do have the device, you’re just arguing To argue. I dont have a ‘personal‘ problem with you, honestly I dont Even know who you are in anonymous forum terms (ie I dont recall seeing your posts, username or avatar previously and because of that couldnt possibly foster any resentment for them) but I’m not understanding your tactics and THAT’s what I’m responding to. If you don’t like me, that’s a personal problem And again, of no consequence to me.

It’s a matter of eye tolerance and the viewer not measurement necessarily since some X users weren’t impacted at all and its a subjective thing. And that wasn’t something I ever asserted either : that PWM necessarily means universal eye strain for all.

—

as a side note I’m still optimistic about 12 Pro even though X did result in eye strain for me for the same reasons Zollo mentioned. So I‘m not bringing up that it has it to throw shade at these new devices, I’m approaching it with open eyes (no pun intended). I even have a preorder for it.

I assure you, we are done here.

Bye...

 

[thadoggfather]

I assure you, we are.


I assure you, we are done here.

Bye...

Assurances not needed.

If you're going to go on an arguing spree without a point, which you seem hell bent on doing and is your right though I don't agree with it - simply be prepared and not shocked or surprised for a response is all. If you do, that's not rational. And perhaps as a pointer - get better at making logic flowing assertions rather than just getting arbitrarily fired up, again for reasons I won't bother to understand because that's for you to contend with, but it becomes both tiring and embarrassing. The former for me and others reading your posts, and the latter for you.


Especially if you are going to then assert I made claims I did not and cannot be cited because I did not like, for example, that Rene took actual scientific measurements in stating in general terms the device has PWM. Or that it (PWM) universally will negatively impact everyone.

That's not going to cut it. Of course I'm going to respond to you literally putting words into my mouth. Would it be reasonable to expect any less? That you're going to speak on my behalf, falsely, and I should just bow out?


maybe as a tl;dr you can enlighten me to your overall point? Because mine is to discuss PWM as the thread was created for, and provide some video footage where people who have used the device say it has it. If you can't, your point is then all that much more 'obvious' isn't it? In exactly what I've suspected it was? Arguing to argue.

Now 'I assure you' ... 'we are done' as you so eloquently put.

 

[changguangyu]

DEMO version of iPhone 12 is DC Dimming at all brightness level!!

iPhone 12 is flicker free(DC dimming)!

I went to the Apple store and test the PWM flicker of iPhone 12/Pro simply with camera. No flicker is detected at all brightness level on both 12 and 12 pro. But it’s very weird that the minimum brightness of 12 is much higher than 11/11 pro. It seems that Apple limited the minimum brightness of...

forums.macrumors.com

But I don’t know whether retail version is the same

 

[TDDM]

DEMO version of iPhone 12 is DC Dimming at all brightness level!!

iPhone 12 is flicker free(DC dimming)!

I went to the Apple store and test the PWM flicker of iPhone 12/Pro simply with camera. No flicker is detected at all brightness level on both 12 and 12 pro. But it’s very weird that the minimum brightness of 12 is much higher than 11/11 pro. It seems that Apple limited the minimum brightness of...

forums.macrumors.com

But I don’t know whether retail version is the same

This is very strange, what kind of test did you do to determine that there was no flickering? Seems odd that they’d have no flicker in demo units, but not retail.

 

[mailman199]

Does it look the same on both pro and Reg 12?

 

[jm31828]

DEMO version of iPhone 12 is DC Dimming at all brightness level!!

iPhone 12 is flicker free(DC dimming)!

I went to the Apple store and test the PWM flicker of iPhone 12/Pro simply with camera. No flicker is detected at all brightness level on both 12 and 12 pro. But it’s very weird that the minimum brightness of 12 is much higher than 11/11 pro. It seems that Apple limited the minimum brightness of...

forums.macrumors.com

But I don’t know whether retail version is the same

Man, if this is true, or if it is even set so there’s no flicker above 50%, I’d be ordering one immediately!

 

[Dejected]

Any updates came out ?

 

[aware]

.

 

[aware]

What is DC dimming?

 

[aware]

Since we all know that iPhone 12 have PWM, the next question is what is the frequency?

 

[tonybarnaby]

What is DC dimming?

A way to control brightness without using pulse width modulation

 

[jm31828]

Since we all know that iPhone 12 have PWM, the next question is what is the frequency?

The million dollar question right now. We’ve seen tear downs, hoping somebody out there does this measurement soon!

 

[Tijdelijk]

Tried 5 iphone 12"s with 240 slowmotion.
They all flicker