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Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Apple retail stores do not provide the educational discount on Mac OS X. I got a talking-to when I discounted Jaguar to $69. The OS is only available at educational prices through your school store or purchaser and online.

That stinks. As does the "no $20 .mac coupon on edu purchases" mentioned earlier. Still, buying online for $69 is better than paying full $129. And maybe Apple will be nice and give .mac subscribers a discount (yeah, right).

Don't know why they wouldn't offer OS X edu discount in stores though, I bought my ibook at the Apple Store in Troy, MI last November with edu discount no problem. Why discount hardware and not software?
 
Originally posted by CaptainScarlet

And why would Safari stop 7b85 from being GM?!?!!? Safari is not a part of the OS...It's an application....

I think the comment was more in reference to the WebKit framework which is an integral part of panther in much the same way as IE on XP.

Webkit is used by Help Viewer, Mail.app and Safari not to mention 3rd party apps such as Net News Wire Pro and OmniWeb.
 
Originally posted by nslyax
Don't know why they wouldn't offer OS X edu discount in stores though, I bought my ibook at the Apple Store in Troy, MI last November with edu discount no problem. Why discount hardware and not software?

Don't know exactly why this is the policy, but it's always been that you can only get edu discount on hardware in stores, not software. Perhaps it's just that software is generally much cheaper (or has much higher percentage discounts) so they don't want you going around to different stores buying more than your allotted share of discounted software and selling it to your friends. Since hardware is much more expensive and has less of a discount, it's less to worry about. Any time we've used my wife's edu discount at the store, they weren't very strict about checking it, whereas when you order online, they can track how much you've gotten.

Also it occurs to me that the software discounts are often so deep that the prices are probably less than what resellers pay. So they want to stop people from becoming their own illegal resellers and undercutting everyone else. Hardware is probably still more than resellers pay even with the edu discount.

Just a random stab in the dark. :cool:
 
Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
They want your money!!

It's simple as that.

And besides for only $129, for full upgrade, the price isn't really that bad...

Were not paying $400 for Xp here...That's expensive.....



CS...out

Hmmm. Windows gets a major you-pay-for-it upgrade every 3-4 years or so. NT 4.0 was around '95, win2k was around '99, XP about a year ago (or something like that, I can't be bothered to look it up) .
Apple seems to be on a schedule of just over a year (jag-panther about 14 months).
So if you want to stay up-to-date, you'll have to pay for three apples, where you pay for one window. 3x 129,- = 400,- (almost).

Where's the difference in that?

M.

PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.
 
Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
They want your money!!

It's simple as that.

And besides for only $129, for full upgrade, the price isn't really that bad...

Were not paying $400 for Xp here...That's expensive.....



CS...out

I've never understood people who use this argument as a bonus for the Mac platform.

Microsoft charges $199 for the Home version of Windows XP, and $299 for the Professional version of Windows XP. But this operating system was released in 2001, and there won't be a paid update until (supposedly) 2005.

In that time frame, we've had Mac OS X 10.0 ($129), Mac OS X 10.1 (free upgrade), Jaguar ($129), Panther coming soon ($129). And we're only in October 2003. By the time Windows Longhorn is supposed to come out (October 2005), we'll most likely be up to Mac OS X 10.5, since Apple seems to be keeping up a schedule of a major upgrade every year (the period between major releases is slowly getting longer):

Mac OS X 10.0 -- March 2001
Mac OS X 10.1 -- October 2001
Jaguar -- August 2002
Panther -- supposedly October 2003

10.0 to 10.1 -- 7 months
10.1 to Jaguar -- 10 months
Jaguar to Panther -- 14 months

So, assuming that we have two major releases of Mac OS X by the time Longhorn comes out, that means we'll have paid $645 for operating system software. That's a far cry from the $299 of Windows XP Professional. Note that this is excluding any potential upgrade/educational discounts that you can get from either Apple or Microsoft.

All things taken into account, Apple charges more than twice as much for the most up-to-date system software in the same time period.

Please note that this is not to be construed as a complaint. The $138 that I've spent so far on Mac OS X (educational discount) has been well-spent and well-justified, and I would have paid the full $258 if I wasn't a student. The $645 that you will spend for all major releases of Mac OS X up to version 10.5 will no doubt give you so many more useful and innovative features in the operating system than Microsoft could ever hope to include.

Just please don't make the same mistake that people do when they buy a PC purely for monetary reasons -- they only consider up-front costs, and not total cost of ownership. If you consider TOC, the cost of a Mac is much, much cheaper. But a Mac isn't cheaper if you just consider a portion of the cost, whether it is up-front costs or operating system costs.

originally posted by iHack
PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.

I agree with the latter point, but not the former. While indeed you can choose not to upgrade Mac OS X to the latest version, and your computer will continue to work as it did before, you are limiting yourself to software that still supports the older operating system. Mac developers, especially small independent developers, tend to create software that uses the latest and greatest technologies, and therefore will require the latest upgrade to Mac OS X. Apple will probably even update the iLife applications so they will do the same. Contrast this with Windows, where you can be guaranteed that most software will continue to work on your operating system for a few years, because Microsoft doesn't release paid upgrades for a few years.

So, all things taken into account, a regular user would want to upgrade to use the latest and greatest software, even if it's free from Apple. That necessitates a paid upgrade to the latest version of the operating system.
 
Originally posted by bankshot
snip.

Hardware is probably still more than resellers pay even with the edu discount.

Just a random stab in the dark. :cool:

Actually, it is not, at least not to small EU resellers. I have no info on North American ones. One Dutch reseller (or actually former reseller) started a petition after Apple changed its pricing policy per October last year. Their complaints are here (in Dutch, unfortunately).
Their margin at msrp would be around 5% which happens to be equal to the edu discount I can get online. And they are supposed to provide support to their customers for that... These guys feel they are supposed to work for free.
The larger, better equipped resellers who operate out a a classy Apple store qualify for higher discounts. In effect, Apple seems to be pestering the smaller 'corner shop' mac+pc resellers off the market to end up with only classy Apple Stores (none of which are Apple owned/operated over here). Not the most friendly marketing strategy imaginable, i'd say.
 
Originally posted by iHack
Hmmm. Windows gets a major you-pay-for-it upgrade every 3-4 years or so. NT 4.0 was around '95, win2k was around '99, XP about a year ago (or something like that, I can't be bothered to look it up) .
Apple seems to be on a schedule of just over a year (jag-panther about 14 months).
So if you want to stay up-to-date, you'll have to pay for three apples, where you pay for one window. 3x 129,- = 400,- (almost).

Where's the difference in that?

M.

You all make good points....


But you seem to be missing 3 other Windows there...ME and of course 98, also 98/SE...NT wasn't really for home use...

95 = $145 (??)
98 =$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
98SE=$209.01 Full $19.99 Upgrade from 98
ME=$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
2000=$319 Full $219 Upgrade
XP(Per)=$299 Full $199 Upgrade
Longhorn= $299 $199 Upgrade (guess)

http://www.theosfiles.com/index.htm


That would come to $ 655.99 cost for upgrade only....Of couse you good take out the price for 95..Since it wasn't much!! And/or, you could include NT....



Now the 3 apples at $387 doesn't seem so bad....Since OS X is the OS were talking about here and not Mac OS 9 or older...

I'm not worried about the money...Since every 3 years I upgrade my computer to something faster...Just like my cars.....

Originally posted by iHack

PS. The difference, of course, is that you can choose to only upgrade your OSX if and when you want to, to save money. And you most probably would be able to use it on your old mac. By the time a new windows version comes out you're forced to get it, because the old version is so buggy and outdated. And you'll have to buy a new PC too, as system requirements go up about as fast as intel can innovate.

Agreed................



The upgrades to OS X have been a blessing!!! With each OS release major improments have been made over the older one. I for one, will upgrade to Panther....

Originally posted by simX
I've never understood people who use this argument as a bonus for the Mac platform.

Microsoft charges $199 for the Home version of Windows XP, and $299 for the Professional version of Windows XP. But this operating system was released in 2001, and there won't be a paid update until (supposedly) 2005.

In that time frame, we've had Mac OS X 10.0 ($129), Mac OS X 10.1 (free upgrade), Jaguar ($129), Panther coming soon ($129). And we're only in October 2003. By the time Windows Longhorn is supposed to come out (October 2005), we'll most likely be up to Mac OS X 10.5, since Apple seems to be keeping up a schedule of a major upgrade every year (the period between major releases is slowly getting longer):

Mac OS X 10.0 -- March 2001
Mac OS X 10.1 -- October 2001
Jaguar -- August 2002
Panther -- supposedly October 2003

10.0 to 10.1 -- 7 months
10.1 to Jaguar -- 10 months
Jaguar to Panther -- 14 months[/B]


True, but Mac is far the better between the 2...And that's what your paying for...a better OS....Just like the Hardware....


Sorry guys, I just like spending money on the good sh**......
 
Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
You all make good points....


But you seem to be missing 3 other Windows there...ME and of course 98, also 98/SE...NT wasn't really for home use...

Um... yeah. If you include all the Windows OSes starting from Windows 95, then you have to include the price of all the Mac OSes since System 7. That would be $99 for 7, 7.5?, 8, 8.5, and 9, minus $30 for the upgrade from 8 to 8.5. So that would be at least an additional $369. Which means the total for Mac OSes would come to $1014, if you exclude 7.5 -- I don't know if you could get a free upgrade to 7.5 or not.

I was only computing the cost since Windows XP and Mac OS X came out. So my total cost analysis was valid.

95 = $145 (??)
98 =$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
98SE=$209.01 Full $19.99 Upgrade from 98
ME=$209.00 Full $109.00 Upgrade
2000=$319 Full $219 Upgrade
XP(Per)=$299 Full $199 Upgrade
Longhorn= $299 $199 Upgrade (guess)

http://www.theosfiles.com/index.htm


That would come to $ 655.99 cost for upgrade only....Of couse you good take out the price for 95..Since it wasn't much!! And/or, you could include NT....



Now the 3 apples at $387 doesn't seem so bad....Since OS X is the OS were talking about here and not Mac OS 9 or older...

First of all, you include Windows Longhorn, so you have to include Mac OS X 10.4 and 10.5 as well as Panther, because Longhorn isn't coming out until at least October 2005. So that means that we're not talking about $387 of Mac OS X, we're talking $645 of Mac OS X (like I said in my previous post). And that still doesn't include the Classic Mac OS systems, which, as I pointed out earlier, you have to include in the price if you include Windows back to 95.

Note that Apple has never provided very good upgrades for their operating system. I'm not sure about 7 to 7.5, but I don't recall Apple giving a discount for 7.5 to 8 or 8.5 to 9. The only upgrade I remember getting was 8 to 8.5, which was a measly $30 discount. I could be wrong here, though.

If you calculate the cost of buying all the Windows OSes, assuming your prices are right, you get this:

Windows 95 = $145
Windows 98 Upgrade = $109.00
Windows 98SE Upgrade = $19.99
Windows ME = $209.00
Windows XP Upgrade = $199
Longhorn = $299

Total = $980.99

Here I'm assuming that you can't upgrade an upgrade, except in the case of 98SE. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but if it is, then it will only make the total price of Windows cheaper.

Also, Windows 2000 and Windows NT were NOT consumer OSes. Windows ME was. So you can't include Windows 2000 or NT in the total cost.

So Apple still charges more for it's operating system in the long run. However, given that Mac OS X is on a roll to get a major upgrade every year, and that it is more expensive than the Classic Mac OS, the cost of upgrading Mac OS X into the future will be even more expensive than it was in the Classic Mac OS days.

The upgrades to OS X have been a blessing!!! With each OS release major improments have been made over the older one. I for one, will upgrade to Panther....




True, but Mac is far the better between the 2...And that's what your paying for...a better OS....Just like the Hardware....


Sorry guys, I just like spending money on the good sh**......

Like I said, I completely agree with you. The cost of Mac OS X is well worth it, even if it is more expensive than Windows in the long run.

But I was just pointing out that it IS more expensive in the long run. So don't go around touting that as an advantage of being on the Mac platform.
 
Updates cheap and worth every penny...

Another cost for Windows users is the time (and therfore money) lost/paid for the constant viruses and system crashes, my rommate who was running Win ME had that computer serviced 11 times at $45.00 an hour, his current box from Dell running Win XP which he has had now for nine months has been serviced 6 times, plus there was the four worms that slipped by his virus protection software which ate up his email address book, but not before he emailed his mother infecting her; he had also forwarded the tainted email to me and of coarse I was immune. That's all money we don't shell out regularily like Window Users.
 
Originally posted by simX
So Apple still charges more for it's operating system in the long run. However, given that Mac OS X is on a roll to get a major upgrade every year, and that it is more expensive than the Classic Mac OS, the cost of upgrading Mac OS X into the future will be even more expensive than it was in the Classic Mac OS days.

Like I said, I completely agree with you. The cost of Mac OS X is well worth it, even if it is more expensive than Windows in the long run.

But I was just pointing out that it IS more expensive in the long run. So don't go around touting that as an advantage of being on the Mac platform.

It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?

Sure, OS X might cost more in the long run if you buy every version, but you are getting new features sooner than on windows where new versions are 3 years apart. But you also will have the option of sticking to one new version of OS X every 2-3 years and spending less.
 
Are student developers going to get a copy of Panther for free? Like the way they receive monthly developer tools?
 
Re: Updates cheap and worth every penny...

Originally posted by paradygm0001
Another cost for Windows users is the time (and therfore money) lost/paid for the constant viruses and system crashes, my rommate who was running Win ME had that computer serviced 11 times at $45.00 an hour, his current box from Dell running Win XP which he has had now for nine months has been serviced 6 times, plus there was the four worms that slipped by his virus protection software which ate up his email address book, but not before he emailed his mother infecting her; he had also forwarded the tainted email to me and of coarse I was immune. That's all money we don't shell out regularily like Window Users.

The difference between Mac and Windows users is Mac users have only had to upgrade there system once in since system 7 to be compatible with a new system. Can you say that for Windows 3.1 on?
 
Originally posted by DGFan
It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?

This point was made here before. Have you checked how many apps require 10.2.6? Actually quite many. so if you want to upgrade your apps, you do need to upgrade regularly...
Many windows programs require a 32 bit operating system, and more often than not they will run on win95. Win98 typically is not a problem at all (at least not anymore than with software of the same age).

M .
 
i think apple's timing comes perfectly every year. without the constant updates to add new features, XP will be around untill 2005. we're already 4 versions of OS X. i can't imagine being stuck with 10.0.4 or 10.1.5 for a few years, unless if its a speed issue.
 
Off subject....not really

I'm running 7b85, no noticeable differences from 7b80...

This is final huh? anyone know what was recently fixed? etc?
 
Originally posted by DGFan
It is only more expensive if you purchase every version of OS X. If someone is happy using XP for 3 years with no upgrade what makes you think they won't stick with 10.1 or Jaguar for 3 years with no upgrade?

Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.
 
Originally posted by pianojoe
Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.

I think it's ok to move forward with an OS in order to innovate. While I agree that an OS should support older periipherals, Apple should not have to cripple its OS to make it compatible with computers which were discontinued in 1997.
 
Originally posted by pianojoe
Don't hit me, but OS X is still incomplete. What makes many people sad is they feel they have been paying $129 to qualify as beta testers for 10.0-10.1.

Jaguar is, finally, a basic functional OS, and 10.3 even more. I want all OS 9 functionality (and some of the speed) back in the OS X finder. Systemwide audio and midi (outside of Logic) is still a land where fairies live. Support for older peripherals would be nice.
Alternative OS themes for people with not-so up-to-date hardware would be nice.

We won't get that one though. Why buy a new machine if the old one does fine? MS is often blamed for making their OS releases so demanding (resourcewise) that people tend to buy new machines. The same holds true for Apple. Non-USB G3s are out of the game with Panther.

10.0 to 10.1 were the first releases of Apple's new operating system. As such a lot of peripheral support and software support had yet been made. With 10.2 a lot of that changed. Twain came in Image Capture, CUPS printing allowed open source printer drivers to be used, and Adobe, and Microsoft's applications finally became more functional. There are still people who complain about Illustrator's speed on 10.2 though, and that probably is due to the fact it was hobbled by being coded for both 9 and X. Once applications are developed strictly for X they run quite smoothly. Smaller applications though don't have problems with running both in 9 and X. 10.2.8 is already improved in overall performance over 10.2.0. So Apple has made the gradual progress of developing a new, relatively open source unix based operating system while trying hard to maintain hardware and software compatibility with the old. Some things just had to get dropped by the wayside like support for older peripherals that work on pre-1998 machines.
 
7B85

Hehe....
 

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7B85 is NOT the GM

I hate to rain on your parade, but 7B85 isn't the GM. It is however, a Final Canidate build. This doesn't make me happy to even post this, but I believe it's true. Reason for thinking this?

#1. 7B85 is a bit buggy. Networking comes and goes and gets really bogged down and some of the OS's apps crash. #2. Weird icons showing up when connecting to servers via secure afp.
#3. Noone at Apple who would like to keep their job would post this dev build.
#4. Anyone here see XCODE yet? If this were te GM could we not assume that XCODE should be along with the "leeks?"

Again, I do believe that Apple is close to releasing the GM and that we will be seeing it very soon. I just have a hard time believe that 7B85 is the GM.

Please help prove me wrong. I want Panther as much as the rest of you all. :)
 
I'm running 7B85 now, and it seems pretty final to me. Its not a HUGE leap forward, but its a definate improvement. Almost all the features it added I feel should have been included in the first place, but a very fast and solid OS none-the-less.
 
Re: 7B85 is NOT the GM

Originally posted by thesaint
I hate to rain on your parade, but 7B85 isn't the GM. It is however, a Final Canidate build. This doesn't make me happy to even post this, but I believe it's true. Reason for thinking this?

#1. 7B85 is a bit buggy. Networking comes and goes and gets really bogged down and some of the OS's apps crash. #2. Weird icons showing up when connecting to servers via secure afp.
#3. Noone at Apple who would like to keep their job would post this dev build.
#4. Anyone here see XCODE yet? If this were te GM could we not assume that XCODE should be along with the "leeks?"

Again, I do believe that Apple is close to releasing the GM and that we will be seeing it very soon. I just have a hard time believe that 7B85 is the GM.

Please help prove me wrong. I want Panther as much as the rest of you all. :)

I tend to agree. I've heard whispers about build beyond 7B85. 7B90 was mentioned but wasn't confirmed.
 
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