ITC Rules For Apple in HTC Patent Case

[wordoflife]

It feels like Apple just took something from before and just highly advanced it. Many phones were able to click numbers and automatically call it.

With that being said, it's Apple's patent so if they really feel that it is harming iPhone sales, then go for it. (which they have).

All this really means is that HTC will have to pay licensing fees to use it.
Aren't there many other phones that do this though? Will they get sued as well?

To be completely honest, I don't think that people will stop buying Androids because of this. But then again, Apple has the right to protect their ideas, so why shouldn't they?

 

[the8thark]

Steve's words:
"And boy have we patented it"

If Apple was telling the world all the way back then about how well patented a product is, you can expect they'll throw everything and the kitchen sink into defending those patents. It's silly to think otherwise.

 

[the8thark]

What I'm trying to say is that I would like to see what the competitors could come up with if they weren't restricted by patents.

You'd get nothing. I'll explain.

With no patents system you'd get the iPhone released and shortly later you'd get iPhone clones identical just without the Apple logo. And the user without a close inspection would not tell the difference between the clones and the original.

But Apple realise this, so with no patent system, Apple would have not invented the iPhone. Cause they knew without it, the iPhone would be cloned. So in short no patent system equals no iPhones and therefore no clones too.

*****************

Why? i kinda like being right.

And much of the time he is right. That's why I like reading his posts.

But you're not.

Ah but *LTD* was right this time. Actually read his posts properly for a change. You might learn something.

 

[ssk2]

As an HTC owner, I can't say this bothers me in the slightest. This is for a number of reasons:

1) this kind of thing is relatively common in the IP world. It seems to be MR that focuses so heavily on these cases and you only need to step inside the offices of an IP law firm to realise that these cases roll on and on almost indefinitely, with little ground being gained on either side.

2) I already own my phone. It works perfectly for me (as did my iPhone 3GS, I'm not saying either is better) and does all I need it to. This case, nor any in the future, will mean the police come and take my phone off me. If it impacts THAT badly on HTC (which it won't...) that something terrible happens, I'll simply purchase a new phone. Easy.

3) Personally, I'll never understand why cases like this are so revered amongst the community. So Apple succeed on two of... 16 claims? Ultimately, this won't change the market dynamic at all, its simply not important enough.

 

[TennisandMusic]

You'd get nothing. I'll explain.

With no patents system you'd get the iPhone released and shortly later you'd get iPhone clones identical just without the Apple logo. And the user without a close inspection would not tell the difference between the clones and the original.

But Apple realise this, so with no patent system, Apple would have not invented the iPhone. Cause they knew without it, the iPhone would be cloned. So in short no patent system equals no iPhones and therefore no clones too.

*****************



And much of the time he is right. That's why I like reading his posts.


Ah but *LTD* was right this time. Actually read his posts properly for a change. You might learn something.

I've been reading the guys posts for far too long. He is almost never right. He is a raving fanboy that does not discuss, he just worships Apple blindly. I guarantee you I do not learn anything from his posts. I am an actual engineer with real experience and a thinking cap. I own almost everything Apple makes but not because I am a blind follower. I prefer real discussions personally. *shrug*

 

[marksman]

Yep. Apple did invent and patent these though, so it's fair in a juridical way. But in reality it just sets back the competition and eventually the end user can't enjoy most of today's fundamental-basic features on a smartphone. IMO most of these should be similar and let the user choose what he likes best in a smartphone but with Apple's way of shutting down the competition like this, it'll eventually come down to choosing Apple over anything else given the advantage it has in features just because of patents.

Better the innovater be in control then the copier. Which is the alternative if you just let people freely steal other's inventions and use them however they want.

Why would you want a world controlled by people who stole other people's work? That would be the worst case scenario but would be exactly what would happen. All innovation by anyone would cease to exist.

Apple's going to piss off a lot of people if the ruling causes a shutdown. That's no way to win customers, but the best way to win haters.

That doesn't even make sense. What shutdown and who is going to be pissed off?

Patent #1:



Cheer for the death of fair competition. The death of choices and a completely controlled environment where you are on the only existing train or you go nowhere.

I am not sure you understand what fair competition is... Fair competition is people competing against each other trying to build products. Fair competition is not one guy sitting around waiting for the other guy to do something and then reverse engineering it or just stealing it.

Cheer until it becomes 100% impossible for anyone to compete in the United States unless they aren't an already a huge conglomerate. All of this has become absolutely insane.

LOL. That is exactly what would happen if you had your way and your "fair competition". Small companies who innovate would cease to exist. It would be impossible for anyone who invented anything to ever be successful as large companies would just rip them off and then use their size and resources to put the inventor out of business and in a huge financial hole.

Unless there is an exact replication of a device there shouldn't be any patent claim. Unless there is an exact replication of code there shouldn't be any copyright claim. You should have to make your market based upon the merits of you device/software and how good you are at getting your message across in a marketing sense. You should have to make your market based upon consumer sentiment toward your product(s) not how much paper you have on file with the US Patent and Trademark Office.

That is just ignorant. We can get into a discussion as to what can and can not be patented, but saying it would have to be 100% copied would make it 100% useless as you could change one marginal thing and it would not be copying. If you record a song and publish it and sell it and I have 2 seconds of dead air at the end instead of 3 have I now created a new unique piece of work that is not a copy of the previous? That is what you are saying you want.

We Americans live in such a litigious society today that any small business with a design they want to put into production is much better off targeting: Europe, South America, and Asia to keep from being suffocated from what is essentially a fascist system.

Go look up the word fascist then come back here and try to actual apply it to your statement in any way that might be considered the least bit reasonable.

The best possible thing HTC can do is pull their products out of the United States, explain why and let the consumer tell their congressman how they feel about Apple being the new aged Bell Laboratories.

Yes. When you steal someone else's hard work the best option is to pull all your products off the shelf and contact congress. I suspect you are quite the successful business person.

 

[AAPLaday]

Things like this are the reason why so many people in the real world dislike Apple. This and the whole 'App Store' Trademark fiasco. Also explains why i get stick for owning a mac.

 

[iamPro]

FYI

Just to make it clear, here is what's actually claimed (patented).

Just in case of the very few that didn't know, it's not the title or mere concept that Apple or any other patent applicant is eventually granted a patent on.

Kinda really bothers me (probably a personal thing/issue) when most every tech blog simply quote the title or drawing when reporting on patent related issues... which is extremely misleading.

At least, MacRumors provided a link to the actual claims, which surprisingly is a rarity among other tech blogs.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patent: 5946647
Filing date: 2/1/1996

Claim 1 (among a mix of 24 independent and dependent claims)

A computer-based system for detecting structures in data and performing actions on detected structures, comprising:

an input device for receiving data;
an output device for presenting the data;
a memory storing information including program routines including
an analyzer server for detecting structures in the data, and for linking actions to the detected structures;
a user interface enabling the selection of a detected structure and a linked action; and
an action processor for performing the selected action linked to the selected structure; and
a processing unit coupled to the input device, the output device, and the memory for controlling the execution of the program routines.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patent: 6343263
Filing date: 8/2/1994

Claim 1 (among a mix of 41 independent and dependent claims)

1. A signal processing system for providing a plurality of realtime services to and from a number of independent client applications and devices, said system comprising:

a subsystem comprising a host central processing unit (CPU) operating in accordance with at least one application program and a device handler program, said subsystem further comprising an adapter subsystem interoperating with said host CPU and said device;
a realtime signal processing subsystem for performing a plurality of data transforms comprising a plurality of realtime signal processing operations; and
at least one realtime application program interface (API) coupled between the subsystem and the realtime signal processing subsystem to allow the subsystem to interoperate with said realtime services.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That being said, I do agree the 5946647 patent may be a bit too broad (at least independent claims 13-15), although I honestly am completely ignorant of anything or a combination thereof that could completely read on the claims (at least the independent claims) prior to the date the patent application was filed.... well simply because I haven't searched...


Also to set things clear for the sake of the few MacRumor readers with what miografico posted earlier...those are patent applications, which the claims really have no weight until they eventually become patented after a usually long prosecution history of several changes/additions to the claims.

I'm just saying 20110173601 is not a patent, even less a patent on the mere concept of delta updates. There could be hundreds of "different" patents related to delta updates. Note the emphasis on the patents being "different"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patent application publication: 20110173601
Filed: 1/11/2011 (effective date is 1/12/2010)

claim 1 (among a mix of 25 independent and dependent claims)

A method of generating an update for a computer readable operating system, the method comprising:
identifying a version number of a current version of the operating system; creating, with a processor, an ordered list of operations for updating the current version of the operating system to a new version of the operating system, the processor performing iterations over each regular file on the new version of the operating system to obtain the ordered list for all data blocks associated with the new version; and assembling, with the processor, a differential update file including a magic number indicator showing the differential update file is an actual update file, a new version number identifying the new version of the operating system, and a protocol buffer including the ordered list of operations.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[PlipPlop]

Apple scared of the power of Android, 550k new Android phones activated a day. I got the HTC Sensation today and can see why Apple are scared. The iphone sucks compared to it.

 

[RobertMartens]

..until Apple becomes the only mobile hardware maker in the United States... that's what is happening and fast.

Cheer for the death of fair competition.

Unless there is an exact replication. Unless there is an exact replication of code .

to keep from being suffocated from what is essentially a fascist system.

Apple being the new aged Bell Laboratories.

I'm breathless at your claim. WOW!

Apple not only won the lawsuit but is now on their way to being the only PHONE maker in the US! 100% marketshare.

Fair competition existed? But now it's dead?

Capitalism as expressed by large corporations is FASCISM.

Didn't Bell get broken up by the government?

The biggest chuckle I get from all this is that in 1996 when Apple was applying for these patents they were about 10 months away from going broke and Microsoft ruled the planet with 93% marketshare. Look how far they have come!! Go Apple!

 

[Dbrown]

This has nothing to do with consumers. It's about respecting IP. If someone can't do that that they're not entitled to enrichment from it, and consumers certainly aren't entitled to those products.

Whether it's good for consumers is irrelevant. Of course, if you're a consumer who also markets a product and thus relies on the integrity of IP law then this is the system in action.

It's time for everyone to start taking IP seriously, because there are consequences for theft. And this goes for Apple as well.

So all this time you had your iphone you weren't entitled to it since apple was infringing on Nokia's patents, right?

 

[cozmot]

Wow. This would be a HUGE deal if it sticks. I wonder what kind of concessions Apple is going to want?

Licensing. Which means much moola. And probably packaging that says "Powered by Apple technology." Or, they go kaput.

 

[cozmot]

Steve's words:
"And boy have we patented it"

Image

If Apple was telling the world all the way back then about how well patented a product is, you can expect they'll throw everything and the kitchen sink into defending those patents. It's silly to think otherwise.

Great post! It says it all!

 

[macsmurf]

This is only the beginning of a long and destructive slide of the US from the top of tech to the bottom. The big boys are suing the big boys. The little boys get sued by the patent trolls. The little guys stop innovating and the cycle of innovation stops. Anyone left with a brain in their head and an idea decides to sell their wares outside of the United States. Whether that's in Brazil or Singapore doesn't matter it is what will wind up happening and only at an accelerated pace as the climate over here becomes more and more litigious.

Come to Europe! We have cookies*!



*may not be true

 

[dethmaShine]

I myself spent 6 years in school for a Masters in my field. Shouldn't you get back behind the Genius Bar?

You spent 6 years for Masters?

Forget it. Do you have any papers I can refer? Have you yourself scored any patents as they are quite meaningful in terms of research and development.

You're all over the place and simply you don't understand how these patents are won and the same are respected.

A 6 years Masters(which probably doesn't exist) would have explained you these little things. I really wonder if you're making these all up.

 

[ratzzo]

Patent #1:

System and method for performing an action on a structure in computer-generated data

A system and method causes a computer to detect and perform actions on structures identified in computer data. The system provides an analyzer server, an application program interface, a user interface and an action processor. The analyzer server receives from an application running concurrently data having recognizable structures, uses a pattern analysis unit, such as a parser or fast string search function, to detect structures in the data, and links relevant actions to the detected structures. The application program interface communicates with the application running concurrently, and transmits relevant information to the user interface. Thus, the user interface can present and enable selection of the detected structures, and upon selection of a detected structure, present the linked
candidate actions. Upon selection of an action, the action processor performs the action on the detected structure.


Patent #2:

Real-time signal processing system for serially transmitted data

A data transmission system having a real-time data engine for processing isochronous streams of data includes an interface device that provides a physical and logical connection of a computer to any one or more of a variety of different types of data networks. Data received at this device is presented to a serial driver, which disassembles different streams of data for presentation to appropriate data managers. A device handler associated with the interface device sets up data flow paths, and also presents data and commands from the data managers to a real-time data processing engine. Flexibility to handle any type of data, such as voice, facsimile, video and the like, that is transmitted over any type of communication network with any type of real-time engine is made possible by abstracting the functions of each of the elements of the system from one another. This abstraction is provided through suitable interfaces that isolate the transmission medium, the data manager and the real-time engine from one another.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the brief synopsis about the two patents.

The two out of then ten they won on... Because they lost on their primary hearing for 8 others (But that wouldn't come up here...) are an entire risk to the mobile ecosystem - not JUST HTC, but Motorola et. al and Android in general.

They are progressively broad and could do a lot of damage to the entire mobile market now that the preliminary ruling from the ITC gives them weight.

So cheer all you want. Cheer all the way until Apple becomes the only mobile hardware maker in the United States. With their Nortel patent portfolio purchase(s) that's what is happening and fast.

Cheer for the death of fair competition. The death of choices and a completely controlled environment where you are on the only existing train or you go nowhere.

Cheer until it becomes 100% impossible for anyone to compete in the United States unless they aren't an already a huge conglomerate. All of this has become absolutely insane.

Unless there is an exact replication of a device there shouldn't be any patent claim. Unless there is an exact replication of code there shouldn't be any copyright claim. You should have to make your market based upon the merits of you device/software and how good you are at getting your message across in a marketing sense. You should have to make your market based upon consumer sentiment toward your product(s) not how much paper you have on file with the US Patent and Trademark Office.

We Americans live in such a litigious society today that any small business with a design they want to put into production is much better off targeting: Europe, South America, and Asia to keep from being suffocated from what is essentially a fascist system.

The best possible thing HTC can do is pull their products out of the United States, explain why and let the consumer tell their congressman how they feel about Apple being the new aged Bell Laboratories.

Thanks for the explanation. It's still difficult to understand though, I also agree the patents' definition is 'cryptic and vague', they could be anything really and I doubt a judge knows exactly what their meaning really is.

 

[Lone Deranger]

Things like this are the reason why so many people in the real world dislike Apple. This and the whole 'App Store' Trademark fiasco. Also explains why i get stick for owning a mac.

No. People in the real world, as you call it, don't even know about any of these patent wars. Nor do they care. Bless them!

 

[Renverse]

No. People in the real world, as you call it, don't even know about any of these patent wars. Nor do they care. Bless them!

Here in the Netherlands they do know. Consumers here are way more informed here than say, the average American consumers.

Some friends, co-workers know that Apple is suing Samsung, and they probably know that they're suing HTC as well. Tech news just gets good coverage here.

 

[Peterkro]

Better the innovater be in control then the copier. Which is the alternative if you just let people freely steal other's inventions and use them however they want.

No IP and everybody is free to use each others ideas,what is the result? Innovation to an extent never seen before that would be the result.

 

[macsmurf]

No IP and everybody is free to use each others ideas,what is the result? Innovation to an extent never seen before that would be the result.

That's pretty much the basis of the BSD license on which OS X is built.

 

[miografico]

You spent 6 years for Masters?

Forget it. Do you have any papers I can refer? Have you yourself scored any patents as they are quite meaningful in terms of research and development.

You're all over the place and simply you don't understand how these patents are won and the same are respected.

A 6 years Masters(which probably doesn't exist) would have explained you these little things. I really wonder if you're making these all up.

Four years undergrad and two years graduate. What is difficult to understand about that?

Yeah I am all over the place... care to explain to me everything I don't understand about the process then? Please enlighten me.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Four years undergrad and two years graduate. What is difficult to understand about that?

Yeah I am all over the place... care to explain to me everything I don't understand about the process then? Please enlighten me.

You had to clarify that your Masters degree [like all scientific Masters Degrees that are ABET Accredited in the US] are 2 year additions to the curriculum of an Undergraduate degree.

You should have taken Technical Writing more seriously, or perhaps you weren't required to know it for your degree(s), in order to graduate. My Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science degrees required it.

Discussing the merits of these patents on a consumer blog is as worthy as watching commentators on business channels attempting to sound mathematically astute by talking about Calculus as if they know a damn thing about it.

It's right up there with watching people talk about computer hardware design and the efficiency of the solution as if they have a clue about the laws of Heat Transfer, IC Design, Shielding, etc.

It's pointless.

 

[62tele]

I agree. Apple should licence those patents on a fair and reasonable basis. They should be awarded some retroactive money based on historical sales, and HTC should be made to pay Apple an additional punitive amount based on damages to Apple.

However, they should not be prevented from selling their phones. That is not the point of the patent process.

Actually, that is exactly the point if patents. If I fund the R&D and create the something unique I want exclusivity in the market unless I decide to license it. Apple is under no obligation to license their property to others. Pharmaceutical companies rarely license their products to others. They want full 17 year exclusivity per the law.
If HTC wants to compete let them develop soemthing new and innovative.
Apple has a right to make as much money as they can over their inventions.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

This isn't an invention it's a method to attain a result and then a superset of a result or perform a resulting action based off of the result. It's something these nice little boxes we call Macs or PC's have been doing since software as software existed. From the first days of software even outside of anything graphical there have been command line/shell applications that asked for input and gave a variety of options based upon that input.

You can come up with multiple ways how the claims based in the patent were already in use in the past outside of the examples you chose to give.

The answer to your last point is Apple is selectively pulling it out to attain a result. The result in this case would be to set legal precedent to HTC; which is a company that competes with them and have the net effect of that damaging as many other competitors as possible.

When you can show me point blank the replication of code used by Google and pilfered from Apple to create the mechanism in which to create these so called actionable results, you win your argument. Google and Android are then guilty of copying Apple and device makers are infringing upon Apple's patents by using their mobile operating system.

You know Google is no peanut company and what is going to come next is:

Google Patent 20110173601 OPERATING SYSTEM AUTO-UPDATE PROCEDURE


Apple wants to delta updates from here on out guess who has the patent on that?

Google Patent 20110173534 Notification system for increasing user engagement


Hmm doesn't Apple have notifications in iOS?

Google Patent 20110173066 METHODS AND APPARATUS FOR PERFORMING ENHANCED QUERIES FOR ITEMS SUCH AS MAPS AND GEOSPATIAL DATA


Wait doesn't Apple want to get in the maps game?

This is only the beginning of a long and destructive slide of the US from the top of tech to the bottom. The big boys are suing the big boys. The little boys get sued by the patent trolls. The little guys stop innovating and the cycle of innovation stops. Anyone left with a brain in their head and an idea decides to sell their wares outside of the United States. Whether that's in Brazil or Singapore doesn't matter it is what will wind up happening and only at an accelerated pace as the climate over here becomes more and more litigious.

Apple has patents on OS X updates from NeXT and Apple, plus Apple-Taligent that far supersede the crap from Google and yes Auto-Update isn't unique to Google.

Hell, Debian's Apt/Dpkg delta system predates Google by many a year.

Never mind the fact that IBM, Microsoft and any other Operating System corporation has this same functionality patented in their own unique implementation.

Enhanced queries for Geospatial isn't anything Apple doesn't already have in their arsenal of NeXT Patents on advanced queries and their Placebase patents which incorporate Geospatial solutions.

Let's be clear: Google is a kid next to the talent and personnel that has been amassed at Apple with their level of deep knowledge that spans from the 80s onwards. You really need to grasp just how much collective knowledge and IP Apple has before running around praising Google.

Google got spanked on the NORTEL auction. That's just for starters. Microsoft and Apple are long time competitors and occasional allies in arms.

Schmidt has made a career full of enemies wherever he has tread. He's no buddy to top brass at Oracle/Sun, Microsoft, Apple, IBM and many others.

Google is also despised by the Chinese Government [for better or for worse] and this deals with business [we all know the lack of respect China should get for it's Human Rights violations, but that's a orthogonal subject].

When China Telecom makes the big deal with Apple it's going to reveal just how deep and well-planned the top brass at Apple are, not to mention their long term vision when they originally announced the first iPhone which most assuredly included China as one of it's main goals of garnering a large market share.

 

[tunerX]

You had to clarify that your Masters degree [like all scientific Masters Degrees that are ABET Accredited in the US] are 2 year additions to the curriculum of an Undergraduate degree.

You should have taken Technical Writing more seriously, or perhaps you weren't required to know it for your degree(s), in order to graduate. My Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science degrees required it.

Discussing the merits of these patents on a consumer blog is as worthy as watching commentators on business channels attempting to sound mathematically astute by talking about Calculus as if they know a damn thing about it.

It's right up there with watching people talk about computer hardware design and the efficiency of the solution as if they have a clue about the laws of Heat Transfer, IC Design, Shielding, etc.

It's pointless.

Grrrr... Make you look small make me look big... Grrrr... Only I know truth... Grrrr... Make you look dumb make me look less dumb... Grrrr....

Stripping apart the semantics and battling the grammar does not make you correct. It just makes you appear snobbish.

I knew what he meant. But since I am not as smart as you, you didn't understand. I guess since you are so smart you don't understand most of the humans on the planet.

Ohh and, by-and-by, I have a fancy shmancy computer science and mechanical engineering degree... pinky up when I tip the cup, you savages...